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Posted: 5/1/2012 8:47:49 AM EDT
[#1]
Supply and demand......
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Posted: 5/1/2012 8:48:18 AM EDT
[#2]
Because they can...
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Posted: 5/1/2012 8:49:01 AM EDT
[#3]
You are crazy.
I'm a lawyer. Very lucky or very good year to crack $100k. One of my best friends is a Dr. $450k/year ++ |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 8:49:21 AM EDT
[#4]
Why is divorce so expensive?
Because it's worth it! 
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Posted: 5/1/2012 8:49:21 AM EDT
[#5]
You'll be really pissed when you find out they aren't doing a quarter of the work they are billing you for, just some paralegal or whoever in the office doing it all.
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Posted: 5/1/2012 8:49:35 AM EDT
[#6]
Because the repercussions of not hiring a lawyer are MUCH more expensive.
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Posted: 5/1/2012 8:50:41 AM EDT
[#7]
If the justice you seek isn't worth their fee - seek cheaper help elsewhere.
Pay for what you get - get what you pay for. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 8:50:45 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Supply and demand...... Actually the OP has a good point, apparently the law schools are churning out so many attorneys that many of them can't find jobs. So, you'd think that would bring the cost down. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 8:51:42 AM EDT
[#9]
I've been working in the accounting dept. at law firms since 1990 & lots of clients don't pay full price.
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Posted: 5/1/2012 8:52:10 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: I don't understand this. Lawyers are a dime a dozen yet you can't bargain with them over fees. No matter what experience level they have or who they work for or with you get nailed for at least $250/hr or more. They make better money than doctors do, have less time involved in getting to the point where they can practice law, make no guarantees and suffer no consequences for poor performance unless they do something out right illegal or unethical. And the latter may or may not cause them grief with the bar. So what gives? It seems like this is a simple supply and demand equation but its not. Not trying to disparage the members who are lawyers here but it just seems like fee versus experience doesn't exist in the lawyer business. True, not every lawyer is successful but then neither is every doctor, musician or business owner.  Sure you can, but they'll just tack on a few more billable hours to make up for itI had my one buddy handle something for me once; I had bought new car insurance and screwed up the dates, so I was technically uninsured for 24 hours...this caused quite an issue w/ PennDot  Anyway, he says give me $150 and I'll write some letters and make a phone call and get it taken care of.He get's it straightened out, then goes into detail about how he timed it and he had spent almost 6 hours on the phone, most of it on hold w/ PennDot over the course of days! I told him I was glad he wasn't billing me by the hour  Speed |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 8:53:58 AM EDT
[#11]
$250/hr is not a whole lot when you consider taxes, paying staff, rent, insurance, etc. Having a good lawyer or law firm depending on your needs is worth its weight in gold. The vast majority of lawyers do not make a whole lot and it takes years and years of hard tireless work to make partner or build a proper book of business. I hate other peoples lawyers but not my own
 (though I did just before X-mas, my new firm is the bees knees).
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Posted: 5/1/2012 8:54:02 AM EDT
[#12]
If we had 8700000000 fewer laws and regulations, then lawyers would charge less.
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Posted: 5/1/2012 8:55:46 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't understand this. Lawyers are a dime a dozen yet you can't bargain with them over fees. No matter what experience level they have or who they work for or with you get nailed for at least $250/hr or more. They make better money than doctors do, have less time involved in getting to the point where they can practice law, make no guarantees and suffer no consequences for poor performance unless they do something out right illegal or unethical. And the latter may or may not cause them grief with the bar. So what gives? It seems like this is a simple supply and demand equation but its not. Not trying to disparage the members who are lawyers here but it just seems like fee versus experience doesn't exist in the lawyer business. True, not every lawyer is successful but then neither is every doctor, musician or business owner. Sure you can, but they'll just tack on a few more billable hours to make up for it
I had my one buddy handle something for me once; I had bought new car insurance and screwed up the dates, so I was technically uninsured for 24 hours...this caused quite an issue w/ PennDot Anyway, he says give me $150 and I'll write some letters and make a phone call and get it taken care of.
He get's it straightened out, then goes into detail about how he timed it and he had spent almost 6 hours on the phone, most of it on hold w/ PennDot over the course of days! I told him I was glad he wasn't billing me by the hour
Speed Retainer FTMFW. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 8:57:52 AM EDT
[#14]
Worked at a lawfirm for a year. The only lawyers making less than $100k a year, were junior (first year) lawyers that had no clients yet. The pay scale went from $175k/year to $1.5m a year.
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:01:55 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Because the repercussions of not hiring a lawyer are MUCH more expensive. Yes. Also the practice model of lawyers. When you go to a lawyer you expect a professional set up That means office, secretary, guy wearing a suit ,etc. That is an independent contractor set up. So the guy has to pay himself a salary. Pay his receptionist Pay rent,utilities, coffee, cleaning service, etc Pay his own FICA/OASDI. Health insurance, dental, kids college, wifes mani-pedi, disability insurance, malpractice insurance, fund retirement, some savings, occasional roll in the hay with an escort, maybe round of golf once a month and even dining at the olive garden occasionally. Shit adds up. Lawyers are professionals You want someone with knowledge, judgement and experience. That is never cheap. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:02:27 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Retainer FTMFW. Exactly how do retainers work? |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:03:52 AM EDT
[#17]
IBA
In Before Aimless 
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:05:54 AM EDT
[#18]
That Porsche isn't going to pay for itself.
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:06:13 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
IBA In Before Aimless And the other 87k lawyers on ARFCOM |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:12:22 AM EDT
[#20]
Greasin palms is pricey
Dotors make it , lawyers take it |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:14:57 AM EDT
[#21]
I have no qualms with the fees if the attorneys are competent.
Few things in life are more expensive than a cheap lawyer. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:18:59 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
They make better money than doctors do, false, for every biglaw multimillionaire there are a hundred starving solo practitioners have less time involved in getting to the point where they can practice law,so how much schooling did Bill Gates get? make no guarantees this is against profession ethics rules, and besides, we're not fortunetellers and suffer no consequences for poor performance false, if you do a shitty job your clients go to someone else who doesn't unless they do something out right illegal or unethical. in which case they get disbarred at the least And the latter may or may not cause them grief with the bar.nonsense, if there is a real problem, as opposed to a butthurt client, they get screwed And then there's the Westlaw/Lexis fees, CLE, malpractice insurance, and the constant stream of clients who refuse to pay up or demand additional services or insist upon lowered fees.  Some scumbag gets you started on a case, then he refuses to pay another dime –– and the judge won't let you dump him because it's too close to trial, oh well, you're working for free for the next few weeks. The major electronics corporation that owes you $150,000 for patent work decides it doesn't want to pay, so it files a bar complaint alleging all sorts of wrongdoing, which results in you being anally probed for six months. Some physician you're suing for medical malpractice hires a hitman to kill you. And it goes on and on and on.
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:20:50 AM EDT
[#23]
You realize out of the $250/hr overhead probably takes anywhere from 50% to 75% of that? At a big law firm the associate will only get paid about 33% of what they are billed to the client. The rest goes to overhead and the partners. The "flood" of unemployed law school graduates is irrelevant to the billing rates when you consider that most law school graduates don't have a clue what they are doing in the real world. We get graduates from the top law schools in the country at my firm starting every fall and most of them are useless until you give them training/instruction. Many of them are book smart and intelligent but lack any significant experience. A good attorney will have spent years acquiring skills in their practice area. Those skills are valuable.
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:20:51 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Because the repercussions of not hiring a lawyer are MUCH more expensive. Because of other lawyers.
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:21:57 AM EDT
[#25]
I had a long, serious answer prepared in my head, but I'll just blame it on our union.
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:25:58 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Supply and demand...... if thats the case they should be cheap as shit since there are shit loads of them |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:28:28 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Supply and demand...... Actually the OP has a good point, apparently the law schools are churning out so many attorneys that many of them can't find jobs. So, you'd think that would bring the cost down. Yes but many of those recent grads are out of work. I graduated in 2009 and it was a miracle I found employment within 6 months of graduating. My first job was doing oil and gas lease reviews at a bank. Many of my class mates did not get jobs at law firms and in stead went to work for banks and oth organizations. So while there are lawyers being churned out of law school, there are not many being added to the pool of experienced litigation lawyers. Bottom line is that someone is paying $250/ hr or they wouldn't charge it. Lawyers don't get paid if they don't have clients. Also, $250/hr is cheap IMO. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:30:46 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Because the repercussions of not hiring a lawyer are MUCH more expensive. Because of other lawyers. There is a modicum of truth to this- one lawyer in a town will starve to death, two will both make a comfortable living. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:30:48 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
You are crazy. I'm a lawyer. Very lucky or very good year to crack $100k. One of my best friends is a Dr. $450k/year ++ He was referring to the hourly rate. Not how many hours the lawyer was able to multiply that by. 
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:31:04 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: I don't understand this. Lawyers are a dime a dozen yet you can't bargain with them over fees. No matter what experience level they have or who they work for or with you get nailed for at least $250/hr or more. They make better money than doctors do, have less time involved in getting to the point where they can practice law, make no guarantees and suffer no consequences for poor performance unless they do something out right illegal or unethical. And the latter may or may not cause them grief with the bar. So what gives? It seems like this is a simple supply and demand equation but its not. Not trying to disparage the members who are lawyers here but it just seems like fee versus experience doesn't exist in the lawyer business. True, not every lawyer is successful but then neither is every doctor, musician or business owner. $250/hr is not so hot for a Dewey-Cheatham-&-Howe land shark. Some "distance learning" instructors at certain major tech universities make >$350/hr for teaching short courses. Few hours on the podium and Momma gets a fat check to buy you another EBR! 
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:34:41 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Supply and demand...... if thats the case they should be cheap as shit since there are shit loads of them Ha ha go get one of the unemployed recent grads then. You will be able to pay him/her less. Let me know how that works out for you. Like I said, there is obviously a market for $250/ hr lawyers or they wouldn't charge that much. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:35:24 AM EDT
[#32]
Have to pay for law school loans somehow.
I saw that O'Mara (Zimmerman's lawery) is something like $400 or $450/hr. Damn. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:36:26 AM EDT
[#33]
Here's a shocker for you. I know an attorney (worked on a case with him) who charges $1,250 per hour. Of course, he is one of the preeminent appellate litigators in the country.
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:38:17 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Quoted: Supply and demand...... Actually the OP has a good point, apparently the law schools are churning out so many attorneys that many of them can't find jobs. So, you'd think that would bring the cost down. A guy at our church is a lawyer... He is working as a janitor at a public school. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:39:01 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
You are crazy. I'm a lawyer. Very lucky or very good year to crack $100k. One of my best friends is a Dr. $450k/year ++ Hmm...seems you are practicing the wrong law. Future brother-in-law of mine just passed the bar this year and will make over $100k. College buddy passed the bar in FL and TX last year and is over $100k too. Neither of them are trial lawyers, they are corporate attorney's. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:46:03 AM EDT
[#36]
Think of it like this, you aren’t just paying the lawyer’s hourly wage, you are…
Paying for all of his staff and assistants. Paying for his rent, utilities, etc. on his office. Paying for his insurance and the insurance of his staff and assistants. And he’s not able to bill for 8 hours a day. Most likely he actually only bills people for 4 hours or so. There’s probably a lot of down time that’s unbillable but where’s he is still working. So, that $250 an hour becomes $1,000 a day. And that means his share of it is probably on the order of $400-$500 a day or so. So he’s actually making around $80,000-$100,000a year. That’s a nice salary and all, but it’s not ridiculously high. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:48:57 AM EDT
[#37]
a good lawyer is worth their weight in gold.
my company uses them heavily. i use them personally also, kept me out of trouble. i am paying for their experience and skills. not all lawyers are the same |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:52:09 AM EDT
[#38]
Student Loans and office overhead.
Do you have any idea how much law school costs? Talking about close to if not over six figures for some folks combined with whatever loans they had to take out for college. Office expenses and overhead. I mean a single attorney can only handle so many cases at any one point and those cases can go on for months if not more than a year. So the Attorney has to pay his loans, pay his overhead, and still have enough money to put food on his table. Not to mention attorneys are always traveling from this court to that court and gas prices a sky high. An auto mechanic can get away with charging $40 an hour or a plumber the same, because they can be done with their job in a few days and turn around picking up another job. Then there is Bar Dues they have to pay each year, malpractice insurance, and a certain amount of course doesn't go to the attorney they go to the courts for filing fees or for evaluation or expert witnesses along with subpeona costs. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:53:23 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Student Loans and office overhead. Do you have any idea how much law school costs? Talking about close to if not over six figures for some folks combined with whatever loans they had to take out for college. Office expenses and overhead. I mean a single attorney can only handle so many cases at any one point and those cases can go on for months if not more than a year. So the Attorney has to pay his loans, pay his overhead, and still have enough money to put food on his table. Not to mention attorneys are always traveling from this court to that court and gas prices a sky high. An auto mechanic can get away with charging $40 an hour or a plumber the same, because they can be done with their job in a few days and turn around picking up another job. Where the fuck do you find a plumber or mechanic charging those rates? The "stock" rates around here are $80 an hour. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:55:19 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Student Loans and office overhead. Do you have any idea how much law school costs? Talking about close to if not over six figures for some folks combined with whatever loans they had to take out for college. Office expenses and overhead. I mean a single attorney can only handle so many cases at any one point and those cases can go on for months if not more than a year. So the Attorney has to pay his loans, pay his overhead, and still have enough money to put food on his table. Not to mention attorneys are always traveling from this court to that court and gas prices a sky high. An auto mechanic can get away with charging $40 an hour or a plumber the same, because they can be done with their job in a few days and turn around picking up another job. Where the fuck do you find a plumber or mechanic charging those rates? The "stock" rates around here are $80 an hour. Michigan. Cost of living is cheap here though.
Lawyers around here charge anywhere from $100 to $400 per hour depending on the case and attorney. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:56:10 AM EDT
[#41]
well, the "justice system" in this country is so complicated, few can navigate it. when you need a lawyer, your choices are to either lose your life/freedom, or pay someone who understands the system... |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:56:20 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Student Loans and office overhead. Do you have any idea how much law school costs? Talking about close to if not over six figures for some folks combined with whatever loans they had to take out for college. Office expenses and overhead. I mean a single attorney can only handle so many cases at any one point and those cases can go on for months if not more than a year. So the Attorney has to pay his loans, pay his overhead, and still have enough money to put food on his table. Not to mention attorneys are always traveling from this court to that court and gas prices a sky high. An auto mechanic can get away with charging $40 an hour or a plumber the same, because they can be done with their job in a few days and turn around picking up another job. Where the fuck do you find a plumber or mechanic charging those rates? The "stock" rates around here are $80 an hour. No kidding. I wouldn't trust a plumber around here who offered me those rates. 25 years ago, maybe....but not today. Hell, it's $65 just pull up in the driveway around here. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:56:26 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
I don't understand this. Lawyers are a dime a dozen yet you can't bargain with them over fees. No matter what experience level they have or who they work for or with you get nailed for at least $250/hr or more. They have learned not to whore-up the market They make better money than doctors do, have less time involved in getting to the point where they can practice law, Maybe make no guarantees "Under promise and over deliver" is just smart business and suffer no consequences for poor performance unless they do something out right illegal or unethical. They can be disbarred or indicted And the latter may or may not cause them grief with the bar. So what gives? It seems like this is a simple supply and demand equation but its not. Again, dont cut each others' throats Not trying to disparage the members who are lawyers here but it just seems like fee versus experience doesn't exist in the lawyer business. True, not every lawyer is successful but then neither is every doctor, musician or business owner. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:56:36 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: I don't understand this. Lawyers are a dime a dozen yet you can't bargain with them over fees. No matter what experience level they have or who they work for or with you get nailed for at least $250/hr or more. They make better money than doctors do, have less time involved in getting to the point where they can practice law, make no guarantees and suffer no consequences for poor performance unless they do something out right illegal or unethical. And the latter may or may not cause them grief with the bar. So what gives? It seems like this is a simple supply and demand equation but its not. Not trying to disparage the members who are lawyers here but it just seems like fee versus experience doesn't exist in the lawyer business. True, not every lawyer is successful but then neither is every doctor, musician or business owner. Tell the .gov to stop passing 1000 laws a year and maybe they won't charge as much. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:57:20 AM EDT
[#45]
I recently got a bill from a lawyer who is not my normal guy. There were only two lines on the invoice. One for two hours of his time. The second line was for $180.00 with no detail. I questioned it. It seems the $180.00 was for the secretary to put the bill in an envelope and mail it to me.
That charge got removed. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 10:01:22 AM EDT
[#46]
If you think Lawyers are expensive, try going to court without one. Of course sometimes, justice costs more than the penalty. I currently have a lawyer employed to fight a citation from the city over a neighbor's complaint. The attorney's fee will be $650 and the citation is $350
But, my neighbor is a fucking liar and I'm not going to let him get away with making false claims against me.
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Posted: 5/1/2012 10:01:40 AM EDT
[#47]
XD Fan:
Your logic is impeccable. The unspoken suppositions aren't stated: 1. Every client retaining an attorney will keep his contract to pay his attorney the agreed hourly fee as billed and if the client does not, he will sell his car, mortgage his house, take out a loan. 2. In lieu of item 1., every client is fully capable of paying all the anticipated court costs and attorneys fees up front before the attorney takes the case - otherwise the lawyer is a dummy for taking the case if the client fails to pay his bills. As for the doctor comment. In 1973, my late wife and I took a medical doctor to a speech by now deceased L.A,. County Joe Bush. Joe Bush was the last DA to try a case in LA County and did one a year. The doctor was very old. He had been, among other things, a fight doctor who got free seats at boxing matches and football games. On the way to the dinner/speech, the good doctor announced that he was a millionaire (he had been picked up at a nondescript house in downtown LA) - if he counted all his unpaid bills. OP - go talk to doctors who are not in hmos. I know that you will be very surprised to learn that they have huge unpaid bills owing from individuals, medi-care, and insurance carriers. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 10:03:15 AM EDT
[#48]
Because most of them are saving up to go back to school and get a real job.
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Posted: 5/1/2012 10:04:48 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Student Loans and office overhead. Do you have any idea how much law school costs? Talking about close to if not over six figures for some folks combined with whatever loans they had to take out for college. Office expenses and overhead. I mean a single attorney can only handle so many cases at any one point and those cases can go on for months if not more than a year. So the Attorney has to pay his loans, pay his overhead, and still have enough money to put food on his table. Not to mention attorneys are always traveling from this court to that court and gas prices a sky high. An auto mechanic can get away with charging $40 an hour or a plumber the same, because they can be done with their job in a few days and turn around picking up another job. Some people use a floating scale and plumbers are one. If shit is floating you'll pay it. The difference is a plumber will fix the problem while a lawyer will give an excuse for failing and still rape you. |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 10:04:54 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Because the repercussions of not hiring a lawyer are MUCH more expensive. My and lawyer and I were discussing this other day. His main point was that EVERY FUCKING THING he does at work involves helping someone get rid of a major problem. If all I did all day long was make people's problems disappear (and deal with the shit that goes along with that) I'd bill $375/hour too. |
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