In '09 I bought an acog from local board classifieds from a seller who we shall call Bell. I used paypal  he shipped.
After 2 years of holding on to this scope I sell this acog to a guy-buyer across the country.      I bought and sold  according to our forums used market prices etc.
Guy-buyer pays with paypal, I ship USPS insured and tracking #

Guy-buyer receives scope, he tries it out, and return asks when I got it, then tells me he has called Trijicon and they said the scope was sold to the DOD.

I DID NOT KNOW THIS !!!! I never contacted trijicon to find out how much life was in the tritium like he did.  I told him everything about my prior transaction with Bell and give him pictures of my PM of Bell sending the scope to me. Same make model in the title.

And asks for demilitarized papers. I contact Bell, he is very uncooperative and tells me he doesn't remember selling it, thats the risk of buying online yadayada maybe he got it from ebay or ar15.com.   I contact guy-buyer tell him this, he says he needs the authentication papers and will need a refund to ship it back so i can ship it to guy-buyer.  I run standard google searches on guy-buyer and bell.     I think I find out where bell lives. I try calling bell again he doesn't pick up. I find out where bell works and his phone number and call and leave a voicemail. Within minutes he calls back and I request a refund if the sight is returned back to him, he says he doesnt remember if the sight he sold me was the actual sight.  I tell him I have paypal records. He remembers that he has sold 4 Acogs over the years and says refund is not possible.  I tell him there will possibly be a federal investigation, he says if they ask ill answer all their questions.  

You may be thinking, why should i believe my buyer? How do I know the sight I sold him is possibly Hot? How do I know that this scope is the same one I sent him?????? I never checked the serial number with Trijicon. I dont have any records of the serial number that I sold. I never knew of this scope history when I bought it, when I possessed it or when I sold it. Never until my buyer told me.  He says he needs to ship it back and request a refund. and I should to the same to my seller I bought it from.  I tell him let me try to find out where the seller lives first when we can see.  Maybe this is a fraud? He could be just telling me this, keeps the scope and the money I send back.

Then I think, No I do not want to be in possession of this acog EVER AGAIN.

Here's the BIG SNAG.  My search finds that the buyer is an FLE  SA.  He verifies this.  and says he has notified his superior and will have to bring it up during security clearances.  I do my research on stolen goods, possession, interstate commerce, fencing, acquiring with intent to return to owner(in this case the government), etc. also everything related to stolen acogs.  

Regardless, ownership remains with the federal government if it is stolen. Stolen items must be returned to the owner.   Possession was every time it is physically held.  I do not have possession anymore, he possesses the scope physically.  I did not sell stolen goods knowingly.   We also do not know if these are stolen goods yet. All Trijicon was that it was sold to the DOD.  Guy-buyer said he would try to dig up paperwork for it from DRMO  to find out agency and demilitarized status.

I tell him almost exactly what Bell told me.  I can not accept the sight knowing this information. Nor can I give you a refund.  First is because it would be illegal for me to accept a possibly stolen federal goods from my new knowledge. It would be illegal for him to send it now.   For the refund I said if he got a official letterhead from FBI or what ever agency he returned it to then I would give him half his money.
Everything is recorded through PMs we have had no telephone conversations


I feel that I am not obligated to give him a refund because of our transaction. Money and goods exchanged.  And because I can't physically get the sight back I dont need to refund him. If it is stolen then he his issue is with the person that stole the sight from the DOD.

This is not to bash FLE officer at all. I'm trying to be as fair as possible both of us are victims.

I find it odd that Trijicon did not ask to have the scope sent back to them.

I know that the ONLY avenue of this is for guy-buyer to return the scope to either trijicon to confiscate it  or DOD,  IF it is stolen, in this mean time of unknowning it status, he may potentially be in possession of stolen federal property even being a federal special agent?.  and  guy-buyer will have to return the sight if it is found to be stolen.  Otherwise I see warrant, doors, being kicked down and dogs being shot. None of us what that
 
On top of all this, while we do not know if it has been stolen or demilitarized.  There is a paypal dispute over Item not described that we just escalated against each other, me and guy-buyer.  I have all my PMs with Bell and guy-buyer with description of sale, emails that I tried contacting Bell and sent these to Paypal.  

I have all the addresses of Bell (found his work and where he lives by back records online) and Guy-Buyer(online published FLE reports, linkedin profile that isnt accessible but I could see his description and his address), pictures of the acog I had in the sale which are the only pictures , but I dont have any pictures of the serial #  I checked I cant read it in my pictures. If there is a federal investigation, I made sure to have my end covered. I can only give this information of who I bought and who I sold it to.  

Bell maybe or is a member here, I dont know if guy-buyer is... Lets assume they're both members   please read this with an open mind knowing the totality of these facts.

Maybe its stolen, okay he has to return it.  He send me a copy of the  official letterhead and I refund half his money.
Maybe this acog was demilitarized, and we all get lucky.  Maybe paypal will side with him also. He gets his money and a free scope. or no scope but all his money back and I'm out all the money and the scope.

Who is screwed, at fault, in trouble?
I wish I never bought this scope.

UPDATE:  I had a grainy picture that I sharpened and made out possibly 5 of 6 serial numbers. I had a Trijicon customer rep verify that it was sold to gov. But does not know anything else about it.
Guy-buyer has verified what I have said. And has come out to respond to this thread several times.  I want to work this out between him and me.


I will not comment any further, guy-buyer has stated he has contacted DCIS. We have an open paypal dispute. We are both understanding this situation. Updates when resolved hopefully

Wow, you are doing way too much work.  Caveat emptor.

What's an FLE SA?

Federal Law Enforcement Special Agent

Federal Law Enforcement (secret) Squirrel Agency.



Good luck man, sounds like a shitty situation. I had a guy offer me an ACOG once for $500 –– smelled fishier than a airport strip club so I walked.

Federal Law Enforcement Special Agent.

Is there an echo in here?

Wasn't there a scam like this a while ago?

congrats you sold him stolen merchandise... stolen from the federal government.  Ignorance of the law does not relieve you of guilt.  Now you are also holding his money and refusing to try and make this right.  Chances are this guy is gonna drop the dime on you big time.  Then you're gonna have to drop it on "Bell."  Either way you're most likely gonna be out one scope AND the money.  You will probably go to federal prison for at least 3 years, but being as this is a "white collar-ish" type of crime, you will probably not have to give up the bootyhole.....maybe.

In good faith I had no reason to suspect it was stolen

I wonder if he stole an Acog and now that you've sent him a clean one, he can turn the stolen one in and get his money back from you for the one he bought from you. That's like getting a free Acog.

Two questions:
Do you retain the services of an attorney?
Are you going to start recording the serial numbers of expensive optics along with your weapon serial numbers?

Sure sounds like a scam to me.



 

I wondered if he was scamming me. I still do.  I am almost deadly positive that he is who he is a federal officer. based on location of where I sent it, and where he works from what I found.

The only other scope i have is a nightforce. all my transactions are paypal or usps mo and I have all my reciepts.  Neither bell nor I can prove the serial numbers of our acogs

I'm thinking about getting an attorney. Too much is unknown still.

You've seen Office Space way too many times.

If you're really scared the first thing you should do is contact a lawyer and have them be your first point of contact for everything.  If you bought something in good faith with no possible way of knowing its origin you're going to be ok unless you go out of your way to piss off the wrong people.

Tell him you need fingerprint or DNA evidence from the Acog in question, obtained by an independent agency. Deny, Deny, Deny. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

So are the ATF bigwigs who authorized Project Gunwalker.

Probably stolen military. Send it to me and I'll check it out. No charge.

BTW, I'm a Federal Officer. For real.

yeah too bad the nightforce is new this year and was inspected months ago

I really don't care, that's too much of a word sandwich.

If guy-buyer insists it's stolen, then he can contact DoD.

He can also be out the purchase price.

Give him the contact info for the guy that sold it to you, and GTFO.

Good luck

The ACOGS have a DEMIL code D which means it has to be destroyed so it will not work or be used as orignial intended purpose anymore. So you are not gonna find DEMIL paperwork for a ACOG that works or even looks like a ACOG anymore.

USML ITEMS - CODE D -  DEMIL REQUIRED. DESTROY ITEM AND COMPONENTS TO PREVENT RESTORATION OR REPAIR TO A USABLE CONDITION

I don't think DRMO can sell any item that is demil code D unless its sold as scrap bits and pieces see above.

That sucks about your situation.

how does he know that?  Hell he probably thinks you and Bell are in it together!  I bet right at this moment he is enacting a plan with his supervisors to expose this stolen DoD smuggling ring that you've been a part of!  Bell being the military guy getting the goods and you being the front man and selling them to under cover FLE SA's!  Damn man, can I call dibs on anything that you have that is not stolen?

Keep your story simple when asked about it. Tell where you got it, how much, contact info., how you found it, etc.

And, you might consider making your statements through an attorney.

Other than that, shut up about it unless asked by .gov or LEO.

The big problem here is gonna be paypal, they'll yank the money if they side with the buyer, and they usually do.

If you have all those records, I don't see where you're in any sort of legal trouble. You bought an item in good faith. You'll be out the cost of the item, but any investigation will go back to this Bell fellow.

The buyers claim isn't with Bell, its with you. The buyer guy didn't do a transaction with Bell, he did it with you. I understand that you don't want to be out the money, but that may very well be what it all comes down to, with the buyer getting the money back from you. He might have a case for taking you to small claims court. I had a gear-queer enlisted guy in my unit who years ago decided he just absolutely needed his own IBA. He bought one off the net. One day the Feds came and scooped up his IBA because it was stolen gov't property. He wasn't charged because like you he had a paper trail for the purchase, but he was out the cost of the vest, whatever that had been.

Seller is responsible party. Hopefully it comes back as sold by DoD and all is well.



Used ACOG's can be a risky buy. A small package that can be sold for 600 - 1000 bucks real quick. Always contact Trijicon to validate s/n...yada, yada.

no way would I refund any money.

Sounds like a scam to me. I hope you recorded the serial number of the one you sold him.

I would tell him to eff off but that's me. I think the fact that you are an innocent party helps you out. We covered something like this in a law class I took. At this point I'd stay quiet so that you don't end up saying anything that could come back in court should you ever end up there. Tell the guy to either sell it or deal.

He did the transaction via paypal, so if there is anything within their grasp to grab, and they decide they're gonna grab it...



Then OP really doesn't get any say in that matter.



 

Scam

I'm saying he switched the stolen one with your and is trying to shove the stolen one back down your neck.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Doesn't pass the sniff test; something is wrong.

Quick question, are there any legal ex-military ACOG's in private possession?

while I believe all teh wordy words you wrote, there is bullshit somewhere in the story.  why didn't your federal law enforcement officer special agent guy verify numbers and such before he bought it?  He was just as much as a dumbass as you were.  I'd say cooperate with the investigation if there is one but you are talking entirely too much and especially here online. STFU.

Or trying to mail him back a fake.



Big big mistake not recording the serial number when something actually has one to record.

At least that way you could call Trijicon yourself to see what they say about the scope.



Sometimes life's lessons are tough I guess.

At this point I'd just try to hang on to the money.



If paypal screws you, you'll have no recourse...

other than documenting everything and taking the original seller to court over selling you stolen gov't property.





 

Doesn't sound like it.



 

I am "Bell" mentioned by the OP.

I have to say the OP left quite a few tidbits out of the story. First, the ACOG was an add-on to my undercover buy of weed, the OP asked if I wanted any guns or scopes since he was already shipping to me. Second, the OP has failed to give me his address so I can stop by and arrest him (I probably should have obtained that first).















Seriously, you had no idea it might be stolen so just go with the truth.

IM tenewel on this site. He can help you. Seriously.

I'd say that's pretty unlikely.  I thnk worst case, he's out the sight AND the money.  But it's reasonable for him to ask fro proof the sight is stolen.

This has been entertaining thus far. I'll send the buyer the link.

....and yet another reason to buy new when it comes to hight ticket items.

Its a  TARP

You would just take some strangers word for that?



 

They buyer needs to return the ACOG back to the DOD.



The buyer has a legitimate claim against you and should prevail.



You have a legitimate claim against Bell and should prevail.



That's how it works.

give the man his money back.





 

The man with a federal type badge who showed up at my door? Sure.



Some fuckin' guy off the internet? uh uh.



 

He's not a stranger to everyone and I texted him the link.  I don't know if he can post on ARFCOM, but he's on the level and I even pushed him my ACOG after he called me about this and found out he can't have the one he bought.  Maybe he will check in when he goes to work.

If you are not a troll then this is what I would do.

You (unknowingly) bought stolen goods.
You (unknowingly) sold stolen goods.

You are going to be the one holding the bag and you won't have a chair when the music stops.

If you didn't record the serial number of the ACOG you bought and sold than that's on you.
How were you ever going to prove that you owned an ACOG to claim it against your insurance if it were stolen, lost or destroyed?

You need to hire a lawyer and find out what his advice is in this matter.

The right thing to do is to contact the nearest military base and speak with their investigative branch and explain what happened.
The buyer should be on board with this.

Once you find out if it's not a scam and the ACOG has been returned to the military then you need to refund the buyer his money.

You need to go after the person who sold it to you to get your money back.

By taking these actions you are going to flush out any criminals.