Here are just a few thoughts about my Appleseed experience.  It will be brief, this is not a dissertation.

Overall, I think what these folks are doing is great; the idea to link history to practical rifleman-ship is noble.  And they say they do this as volunteers because they believe in the mission, and that is to be commended.  The goal is wonderful, to educate Americans in our history, and in practical rifle-ry.  I am a huge fan.

I took my wife’s 14 year old nephew, who had never shot any firearm before.  I thought this would be the perfect introduction for him.  I am glad he was taught properly how to shoot for his first experience.
We each had an AR, mine had an ACOG on it but I kept the lens covers on.

But the way it was actually run did not impress me, and more importantly, it did not do what the organizers said it would do.

According to their literature, the key to the goal of the Appleseed Project is to teach Americans to be able take a rack-grade military rifle and hit man-sized targets out to 400 yards.  That sounds great, but that is not what the focus is.
If participants can hit the AQT course of fire, simulated to 400 yards, then they earn their “Rifleman” patch.  Participants had to shoot a 4 round timed course (standing, standing to sitting/kneeling, standing to prone, and prone).   The mag changes were all load 2 rounds and 8 rounds in 2 magazines.  We were being taught a 60 year old course of fire using Garand specifications.

The real goal of this entire system is to teach people how to gimmick the shooting to get the patch, not to learn how to shoot a rack grade military rifle at man-sized targets to 400 yards.  That is the bottom line truth.

You want a patch?  Play the game.  You want to learn how to really shoot man-sized targets at 400 yards with rack-grade military rifles?  You can certainly learn at Appleseed, but it’s not what is really being taught.

First, when I hear ‘rack grade military rifle’ for an American rifleman from 2010, I of course think of an AR-15 variant.  The Appleseed project thinks otherwise, as do most of the returning shooters.  Of the 30 plus shooters there, only 4 had AR15s, one FAL, and some rotating to Garands.  But the instructions were almost exclusively towards the Ruger 10/22, and all of the people there at their 2nd or 3rd event had 10/22s.  Most had high-powered optics as well.

The targets we shot were all at 25 meters, sized to simulate 100- 400 meter shots.  With high-powered optics, it seems hard to imagine how it took so long for the users to qualify for rifleman, but it did.

They also frown upon bipods (as do I for this type of training)  as that is using equipment, not skill.  But full ¼ to 1/3 of the instruction was on the use of a loop sling, and they really push using optics over iron sights.  I got pressured to borrow a sling, but didn’t want to.  I didn’t want to have to rely on extra equipment, just a basic rifle.
So two pieces of equipment, the sling and the scope, are vital, but the bipod is a crutch?

Instructors also pushed optics, and the only people who qualified had huge scopes on their 10/22s.
My nephew was having trouble zeroing a brand new AR, and not a single instructor had any experience with that design rifle, or could help him other than giving us a card that had the sight adjustments on it.

The only folks who qualified as rifleman were on their 3rd Appleseed and had high power scopes on 10/22.  They were playing the game to get the patch.

Two quick stories will summarize the entire weekend to me, and my observations about the Appleseed:
1.One instructor I spoke with was really suggesting I take the lens covers off my Trijicon ACOG and use the 4 power scope to help my scores.  He had never shot iron sights in his life, and thought that optics were the only way to shoot.  He had also never shot any other rifle besides the Ruger 10/22.  Now, I didn’t poll all the instructors, and a few seemed to be real Garand fans, but to have an instructor who had only shot scoped non-military rifles doesn’t seem like the program I’d signed up for.
2.The one person who earned his rifleman patch on Saturday (with a tricked out 10/22 with a large scope on it of course) used a Garand on Sunday, and contrary to the promise that he could use a rack grade military rifle and be a marksman, he was not.  Not at all.  He didn’t even hit paper for a long time.  At 25 meters.

My recommendations to the Appleseed if they want to do what they say they do are simple: shooters must use military rifles with iron sights.  That’s it.  Any other and the shooter is not learning how to use a rack grade military rifle to hit targets at 400 yards.  
This is not ‘sour grapes.’  No, I did not earn the rifleman patch, but I am much more confident in my marksmanship than I am in the 4 who did get their patches.  And If I practiced the course of fire that I now know (like they all had at least 3 precious events), and return to two more events, I would get it.  
Give me a 10/22 with a powerful scope on it, and I have no doubts I could get a patch.

But I would not be a rifleman.

Here is my last shot of the day:

Sure sounds like the one you went to was run by a bunch of clowns. The one we had in Virginia Beach last year was awesome. I didn't agree with allowing people to use scopes, but it was only a few people. There was a bunch of 10/22's and random rifles. I think only me and one or two other people had AR's. The 8 and 2 thing is pretty dumb. I didn't go to learn how to shoot high power and not a single person had a Garand. I wish I could have made the second day. I got a 206 on the run we had at the end of the day. Pretty disappointing to miss it by that close.

the 8 and 2 thing is to force you to reacquire your NPOA, because changing mags forces you to get your position again.

It's a run what ya brung.

If ya got a 10/22 run it
if ya got a tricked out AR15 with an ACOG, run it

It doesn't push iron over glass or glass over iron.

It does push .22LR at 25 yards cuz it's a lot cheaper to acquire skill at 2c a round than 50c a round.
the basics still apply.

The ones I attended in 06' and 07' were very different.

Emphasis was on centerfire ammo (with rimfire being acceptable for the 25 meter work and as a training tool to be setup as a trainer rifle for your larger primary center fire rifle) and iron sights (optics were allowed, but not specifically instructed for).

We did have one "gamer" at the 06' event, he drove in from Mass and had a tricked out 10/22 with a 9x scope on it.  He beat my AQT score by 3 points. I was using an original colt SP1 type with iron sights, 1/12 twist pencil barrel, USGI green canvas sling and wolf 55gr ammo.

We both shot well into Rifleman's scores and got our patches. Who is more capable to pickup a Garand, full length A2, M1A and shoot at 400+ yards?

.22LR at 25 yards is an inexpensive way to learn basic skills that WILL translate out to 400 yards with any high-power rifle.



I agree that iron sights are the only acceptable way to earn the patch at 25 yards.  But that's my opinion, and only it matters to me.



Learning the proper use of a sling is a bad thing?



The way I see it, an Appleseed is mainly good for three things:



1.  Having a fun day on the range and meeting other shooters while learning a few things about the Patriots who helped free this country.

2.  Learning some basic rifleman techniques, like NPOA and rifleman's cadence.

3.  Introducing new(er) shooters to the challenge of shooting a timed course of fire.



I have no problem with anyone earning a patch using a scoped rifle.  I have my own goal to earn mine using my 10/22 with iron sights.  Because if I can do that, then I'm confident I can do it with my AR.  But that's just me.



I hear criticisms of the Appleseed and I always think to myself:  "How can anyone be critical of a cheap day at the range learning new things?"

I have attended two Appleseed matches.  Neither was run as the OP describes his was.  I had a great time, and shooting fundamentals were reviewed with a lot of emphasis.  I recommend taking the training if it is available.

I qualified as rifleman both matches, the first time with an M1A, and the second with an Ar15 not that it matters.
edited to add, both matchs were fired with open sights.

While your review was certainly dissapointing, I have also heard several good reports about Appleseed.

I look forward to attending one in the near future to see for myself. Trigger time + good company is always a win, in my book.

Just a couple of questions OP.

Since you had the Acog covers on, were you using a see-through hollow base on a standard AR sight handle? Or were you trying to use the fixed "irons" that are part of some Acogs?

Which part about using a sling fustrated you? Were you able to aquire Natural Point Of Aim, NPOA, without a sling?

That's a nice 250yard "head shot" on that target, what did the groups look like on the rest of the target?

Thank you for your review.  I've copied it over to the Steering Committee board on the Appleseed Forum.  

I'm very sorry that you had a poor experience with your Appleseed it should have been exactly what you expected.

We take reviews very seriously at AS, we'll discuss it and make the needed changes.  

We are limited somewhat to what is available at the ranges we go to.  Usually you would have shot full distance on Sunday to show you that what you learn at 25 yards really does apply at 100-500.  And it really does.  I was totally shocked when I shot it and was making shots I could hardly see.  A lot of the ranges don't have the full distance bay available to us or don't even have one.  That is unfortunate but just how it is.  We work with what we got.

Scopes are discouraged at AS but we know that as you get older your eyesight weakens and they are necessary for some folks.  We prefer that you shoot with iron sights.  We also prefer that people shoot with rack grade rifles, but as the Mr noted, it's just to expensive and unavailable to most people right now.  So we teach the skills.

Again, I'm sorry you were disappointed we do the best we can with what we have.  I hope you'll give us another chance.

Mrs. Bozeman MT

I just wanted to make a few comments:

1.  The sling is not an extra piece of equipment.  A shooting sling is a vital and legitimate tool for the marksman to employ.

2. "8 and 2" .  So what?  Some of us only have Garands and Enfields.  My Mini is too expensive and too inaccurate(?) to shoot in a training event.  Course of fire mimics old fashioned High Power competition.  Which I used to shoot with a Garand.  There is nothing wrong with this established system.

If you modernize the course of fire to mandate 30 round mags, you automatically eliminate a huge number of people from competition.  So start your own competition or attend one that is "modern".

3.  Any set competition could be gamed(optimized) for maximum advantage.  Any of them.  This should not be a valid reason to reject the competition.

4.  Scopes.  So what?  You want modern? Glass is modern.  So use it.   Iron sights means that you have to perfectly line up 3 things with a time limit.  Scopes mean that you only have to put 2 things together under a time crunch.  It just makes it easier to focus on the fundamentals of trigger control, breathing, rhythm, NPOA and keeping track of rnds remaining in mag, rnds on target, and correct posture.
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––-

So, can you now pick up a 10/22 and shoot a rifleman score?  Did you retain the instruction?

I think people start out at 25m with the attitude, "this is such a short distance, that a rifleman patch is a gimme."
Paper doesn't lie.
The rude awakening their inadequate scores provide is usually a depressing shock.  I shot a 180 the first morning, out the door with my old Chinese hunting rifle, a CZ 452 clone with an ill-fitting scope which interfered with  the bolt handle.  I couldn't claw at the bolt handle fast enough to keep up.  Hadda switch to a semi auto, just to be competitive.  They don't give 10 extra seconds for the bolt gunners at Appleseeds, unlike high power competition.

My scores still weren't good enough with a semi that first day, but at least I could finish a course of fire now.  I absorbed the lessons, and by the morning of the second day, I shot rifleman.  My scores continued to climb all day, and by afternoon, I was shooting 230 or 240.

If you can't do it with a .22 at 25m, what makes you think you can do it with a centerfire at the actual full range?

Don't let any of this discourage you, and

CHEERS

well yes, i realize that's why it's 8 + 2, but it could be 5+5, it's still the same idea, do a mag change.

Our steel silhouette club was approched by appleseed some time ago.  after seeing more than a few reports like this we decided that it wasnt something we wanted to affiliate ourselvess with.  my own personal expeirience was poor to say the least.  pretty much in line with the OP's.  

SW

It's a holdover from the M1 rifle. It also forces you to acquire and hold a good NPA. The 10-round course of fire is a hold over from the decimal target. Don't like 2 and 8? Shoot 5 and 5. Find or make yourself a 5-V target and shoot 10 and 10. Anybody can lock in a 30 round mag and dump the rounds downrange. Accurate rounds on target before and after a mag change are important. Focus on the message, not how it's being relayed.

i can learn that on my own time at the range for alot less than the 85$ per head they tried to bilk us for around here.

SW

The only comments I have about this post is the cheap day at the range????  I am an NRA Certified Coach as well as Rifle and Pistol instructor and have taught bunches of kids to shoot.  I was considering going to an Appleseed Shoot at our range until I saw the price.  It was far from cheap!  The most we ever charged was $5.00 to cover the NRA program materials - Book, Certificate, Patch, and Exam.

Would an SKS with box mag and stripper clips be viable at Appleseed?  Accuracy is no problem.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Same here.  Especially this:

To be clear, I had a very positive experience at Appleseed.  Why does anyone think that less than 100/weekend is an expensive shooting school?

Hell, Military shoots free at those.  And women.  and kids, and cops and elected officials.  It costs money to do stuff.

Bottom line–– don't complain about $80/weekend.  Or don't go.  It's all the same to me.

I had a similar Appleseed experience to the OP, but I ENJOYED it.

I think a lot of it is the frame of mind you bring with you. In fact, that's the first thing on the list to bring with you- an open mind.   In my opinion, Appleseed is focused on beginners, but there is a lot of useful information for experienced shooters.  For me, it was a good fit because I'm just getting back into shooting after taking 30 years off.  (Thanks, Mr. Obama!!)  

I purchased a 10/22 for the event, experimented with several iron sight combinations, and finally caved in and bought a small scope.  I really wanted to shoot it with irons, but these old eyes just couldn't focus the irons very well.

However, I do appreciate the OPs opinion.   I plan to go back with my AR15 and iron sights just to see what I can do sometime, but it's gonna cost me a lot more $$ in ammo.  500 rounds of .22 is about $35.   500 rounds of .223 is closer to $175 or more.

One final thought:  People buy guns for a variety of reasons.  Some hunt, some like target practice, and some want personal protection.  Appleseed taught me a 4th reason- shooting a gun well is also a patriotic duty.

p.s.   Yes, I scored Rifleman, but that just sets a good baseline.  I want to get a lot better.

I concur.

While I agree that there is a bias towards the 10/22, I think that is because it is cheap to acquire and shoot.  It is also more pleasurable to shoot.  Shooting a 1903 Springfield for 600 rounds over 2 days is not my idea of fun.

I went with a friend who earned his rifleman patch using a 10/22 and Federal bulk pack.  He used a GI sling and added Tech Sights (peep sights) to the rifle.  That's it.  No bull barrel, no scope, no bipod, no match trigger, no free floating, etc.

I'm shooting my first AS in St. Augustine this weekend. Sure hope this is an atypical experience.



ETA:  I'll be using my mid-length, flat-top AR (Bushmaster lower, RRA upper), with iron sights, a free-float tube, and some old South African surplus ammo.

I firmly believe that people should acquire the fundamentals of marksmanship with a .22 LR, and I am partial to bolt action with iron sights and a proper loop sling.



That's the way I learned.  First with my dad's M1922, then NRA classes at  summer camp, prep school rifle team, college rifle team.  Sight picture; the integrated act of shooting; "B-R-A-S-S"; prone, kneeling, siting, and standing...



However, while the fundamentals are best learned with a .22LR on a 1000 inch range, anyone that thinks they can then immediately pick up an AR-15, M1A, or M1 and engage 500 yard targets is fooling themselves.  You have to learn how to zero that rifle, how to shoot that rifle, and the ballistics of that round over distance ("doping" and windage).



"Shooting promiscuously firing semiautomatics with telescopic sights is not how men learn marksmanship!" (apologies to John Milius and Sean Connery and to the "The Wind and The Lion").

My sportsman's club has a 500 yard range.

While the grand majority of the shooting will take place at 25M, you will shoot at 500, if you attend any of the upcoming Appleseed shoots there. That means you're going to have to have some centerfire rifle for at least that part of the shoot.

Personally, I'll be shooting my 10/22 with Tech sights at the short ranges and and my CMP AR at 500. My girlfriend will do the same, provided she wants to shoot it, too. I'm going to sharpen my shooting skills, not to get a patch. If I do, great. If I don't, I'm not going to retake it until I do.

A lot of Appleseed shoots are limited by the range available. I'd talk to someone before going, if shooting at actual range is important to you. The lessons probably will translate, but shooting reduced targets is different than shooting at actual range.

Ditto, regarding the ones I have been to.

1. Zero your rifle BEFORE you show up.

2. Order some targets and at least be familiar with the firing sequences.

No one was using optics at the ones I have attended.

A properly used sling will improve most people's groups.

With the relatively slow fps of a 10-22, you'd better have good technique.

Just some IMO thoughts..............

eta-
On the second day of my first Appleseed we shot a 400 yard target. I was using my AR, my hand loaded 69gr SMKs and iron sights. I'd never shot a rifle at that distance before. To say I was skeptical is putting it mildly. When we scored our targets my group was about 18" X 18". I'd say I learned something the previous day.

I have only been to one appleseed.  It was a fun event.   Next time I will a zeroed rifle.

I didnt get the patch but it was fun.  

I practice apple seed stuff everytime I go and shoot.

I find if I start with position shooting as a warm up the session goes so much better.

For those who may not know, your POI will change if you're using a non-free floated rifle and use a very tight sling with a swivel attached to the barrel (such as on an AR).  

Hmmm.  I look forward to trying to make the November Appleseed in Davilla, TX.



I'll take my 6721, completely stock - with irons.  



-p.

Good point. Mine is free floated.

Say someone has a gov. profile barrel. How much would his POI shift @ 25M?

Depends on the rifle and the shooter.  It will shift enough to affect scoring on Appleseed's AQT.  

It's not an insurmountable obstacle.  Assuming the shooter uses a consistent amount of tension on the sling, the results should be repeatable.

The AS I attended they never pushed for high power optics on any rifle.  They leaned more to shooting basics with irons but also pointed out that some people have to use a scope.  They asked the people with scopes what power setting they where on and recommended having the scope on the lowest setting.  

I used a scope and got rifleman my first AS.  Why did I use a scope? because I get a splitting headache when I focus my eye on the front sight post for more then 20 minutes.  Since then I have figured out how to get a longer period of time before eyestrain causes a headache.  

Even though we only had 25 meters for the shoot they covered come ups and how to judge distance on targets.  We covered windage correction also.   I have shot at some fair distances before and even though we did not shoot at actual distance the instruction was solid.  I normally relied on a ballistics program for an old palm for correcting, they showed a pretty simple windage adjustment method.   As the instructors said during it if we had the actual distance and no one used it, they should consider themselves failures.    

I personally believe that if the shoot boss ran the shoot like the OP's review then the shoot boss should be turning in his green hat.

I do believe that as many shoots as they have planned for next weekend that there could be many more stories like this due to them spreading them selves too thin. I hope I am wrong.

Wow, and all this time I thought that Appleseed shoots were irons only, and you ACTUALLY shot 500m.

You went to a course with some very odd instructors.

I've attended two (shot rifleman on my first, with a bone stock 10/22 with tech sights and a makeshift sling), and the use of scopes is strongly discouraged, though allowed.

Not really sure why anyone would "play the game to get the patch", as the focus at both events I attended (my wife shot at the second, I helped her rather than shoot for myself) was to learn basic marksmanship, not game the system.

5 out of 20 shot rifleman at the one I attended –– all of them shot iron sights, a couple shot 10/22's, one shot a Garand, and the other two shot AR-15s (22 conversions) with iron sights, if my memory is correct.  We were lying on the ground in the Nevada desert, the wind was blowing up to about 40mph across the range almost the whole time we were shooting, and we still pulled it off.  Scopes were allowed, but were specifically not recommended.  The instructors were all very knowledgeable about all the rifles in use, and gave individual attention to everyone who needed it.

Use of a sling is a different skill than using a bipod –– the hasty sling is a significant aid where a bipod may be impossible to use.

Mag changes are based on the COF with the Garand.

Anyway –– I'd recommend giving it another chance, the way yours was taught is not the norm from what I've seen and heard about.

This is the wtf? for me.  I run tactical slings on my fighting rifles.  I don't use, and don't have a need for an old school sling.

These guys are teaching how to shoot circa 1950.  That's fine... but they kinda sell themselves as being about basic competency with a military-style rifle.  





As long as people look at it that way, it's all good.  When they start believing they are really learning to be "rifleman," I'm more skeptical.

Here is my AAR from March

I'd like to know why you would take your 14 year old nephew who has never shot a firearm before to an event and give him an AR to use. And why in the world don't you have a sling on your rifle?

I'll attend one this year with my 10/22 using iron sights. I wouldn't consider using a scope to game the system unless I was physically unable to see the front sight post. Even then I would be likely to go out of my way to get corrective vision specific to my sight radius.  

But then I wouldn't get pissed off just because some 26 yr old got his patch at his 3rd Appleseed using a scoped 10/22 either. That doesn't affect me.

And a sling? Required for me on every long gun I own.

I have only shot Rifleman with a scoped 10-22. Clearly I need more practice and instruction.

An overall response:
I still am optimistic about this event, I think the group has a great goal, and I was very happy to see how many new shooters there were, and how they really did instill the patriotic love for competent marksmanship in the attendees.  I laud that.
But the one I went to just didn't seem like it was meeting the set goals of the organization.  To be able to pick up a rack grade military rifle and shoot man-sized targets at 400 meters.

I shot OK, but like I said, I didn't get rifleman.  But I was never that far off the targets, and had decent groups.  
My AR was a 20 inch Bushmaster (during ban, like 1998).  The ACOG mounted on the carry handle and you can look through the mount to use the regular sights.

It was totally my fault for not having the nephews AR zeroed for him before going.  It was a function of the realities of him having to travel to me, and then both of us having to travel to the shoot.


I do have slings on my rifles, but not the type of slings they have.  And I wanted to learn to shoot properly without any aids, just me and the rifle.  

I didn't care about not shooting past 25 meters, I understand that the skills translate to longer ranges.  
I thought the cost was more than reasonable, $75 for the two of us to be instructed for 2 days is a deal in my book.  Hotel, etc. added to it, but the event itself was a bargain.  Plus we got t-shirts!

I'm encouraged by the responses here that the one I went to was an aberration, and not the way they are all run.  
I will be taking more courses, but probably not the Appleseed, more because I want to learn how to shoot in a more dynamic style than the style they teach.

I'm glad I went, I did learn a tremendous amount, I just think they need to hold more true to what they say they are teaching.

I've gone to two, and there were several differences between them.  The first one was taught by the actual organization staff - they flew in or drove in from parts unknown, just to teach it.  It was obvious how much passion they had for their group - they were mostly putting up their own cash to travel around the country.  They were patient, competent, organized, and knowledgeable.  They taught me things that I had never heard before, and gave me a new perspective on the obstacles our forefathers faced in picking a fight with one of the largest, best-equipped armies of their day.  I shot the course with an iron-sighted Remington 597.  I didn't make Rifleman, but I wasn't really upset - I learned some new things.

The second time I went, I took my 13-year-old daughter.  She shot my .22, and I shot my AR 15 (with crappily cheap BSA red dot sight on it).  This time, the instructors were all locals that had earned Rifleman before, and had volunteered to attempt to pass on what they had learned from the Appleseed organization.  They weren't as well organized as before, and I could see their professionalism was lacking in little ways.  She got frustrated in that she wasn't able to hit everything she wanted, and while the instructors gave her some individual attention, they couldn't be with her 100% of the time.  One thing that pissed me off was that they wouldn't let ME attend to her either - they wanted me to do nothing but shoot.  Therefore, when she was having feeding problems, I wasn't aware of it, and she got even more frustrated.  

In my opinion, it's still a fun day of shooting stuff, and hanging around with other people that like to shoot stuff.  If my daughter wants to go again, I'll gladly take her (or any first-time shooter).  I will, though, have a word with the range staff about me seeing to her needs and letting HER have a good time, before having a good time myself.

Yeah I was not as impressed when I went... I scored the highest out of 63 guys (including the instructor) and he got all sour grapes and said my rifle was too nice so he wouldn't give me my Rifleman Patch...

He said and quote "It's too easy for you to hit the Targets with an Aimpoint, so you're disqualified"... but tons of people had rifle scopes... WTF... yeah so the guy next to me using his M1A with a 3-9 on it who got his Patch wasn't at an advantage over someone using Irons, Or even an Aimpoint in this particular situation...

I truly believe he was just upset that I scored higher then he did... Only 3 of us scored Higher then him. He Could except the Fact the other 2 were Ex-Military but me at the time being a 21 year Old Non-military Individual... It had to be the rifle

I'd suggest you create an account on their forum and provide that as feedback –– I doubt that's something the organization wants to see happening.

Same advice I gave the one above you –– provide that as feedback, along with the name of the instructor.  That's not in the spirit of what the organization wants, at least not in my experience.

OP - it sounds like you just had a bad day, and that the Appleseed is not the style of training you want right now.



Nothing wrong with that.  I will say that I believe a sling to be as much an integral part of a rifle as the stock itself.