http://www.progunleaders.org/ammo/

Military Cartridge Brass Destruction 2010 - Round 2

by
Gary Marbut, President, Montana Shooting Sports Association

The cure that was arranged by Montana Senators Baucus and Tester to fix the intended military destruction of once-fired cartridge brass last year appears to be suffering from a fatal end-run.

Interested persons will remember that a year ago, helpful intervention by Montana's senators persuaded the Department of Defense to rescind a fresh DoD directive to military installation commanders requiring them to destroy once-fired brass, prior to selling it at auction into the civilian marketplace for ammunition reloading and other purposes.

An end-run is being done around the rescinding order through quiet and sweetheart side deals with installation commanders that is being aggressively promoted by ATK.

Some characters must be introduced to explain this story.  ATK/Alliant Techsystems is the defense contractor that currently has the contract to operate the Army's huge Lake City Arsenal, the last government-owned facility in the U.S. for production of small arms military ammunition.  While other contracts to operate Lake City have been cost-plus, the contract ATK arranged allows ATK to retain profits of operation.  Although government/private partnerships always seem to be strange creatures, the nature of the government/ATK partnership may be stranger than most.

Government Liquidation is another private entity that has an exclusive government franchise to sell surplus military equipment, from all military installations nationwide, to all bidders.

Until recently, most used cartridge brass sales were put up for public bid through Government Liquidations, bids available to scrap metal purchasers, foundries processing brass, and specialized cartridge brass processors that reconditioned millions of surplus cartridge brass for sale to commercial reloaders of civilian ammunition, and to civilians for ammunition loading.  The steady supply of reloadable brass from military sources has been a sizeable and essential component of the currently stressed ammunition market in the U.S.

Although the private Government Liquidations retains a fee for the auction services it provides, the bulk of income from Government Liquidations' sales of surplus military property is directed into the U.S. Treasury, to be reallocated and appropriated by Congress, as needed.

In a recent turn, ATK has been aggressively promoting sweetheart side deals with military installation commanders for those commanders to sell used cartridge brass directly to ATK (which ATK then renders unsuitable for reloading), the income from which is deposited, NOT into the U.S. Treasury for reallocation by Congress, but into accounts controlled by installation commanders for installation operation.

ATK even provides portable equipment to demil tons of cartridge cases at the military installations, destroying the brass for reloading purposes.  Because the destroyed cartridge case brass is not suitable for reloading, it cannot command a price driven by auction for the highest-value use of reloading.  Military installation commanders sell the Alliant-destroyed brass to ATK at a private, non-auction, special price.  Commanders are willing to accept the reduced price because the sale proceeds go to the commanders' discretionary accounts and not back to the U.S. Treasury via Government Liquidations.

Quote from ATK program sales literature:

"Payment is made to Fort Irwin not DRMO [now Government Liquidations], so Fort Irwin utilizes the money that is generated from the Recycle project for other recycling efforts."

ATK, then, ships this destroyed cartridge brass to the foundries from which ATK gets new stock for manufacturing new cartridge cases, offsetting in significant part what ATK would otherwise pay the foundries, and thereby increasing ATK's profit from operating the Lake City Arsenal.

Government Liquidations suffers a substantial decrease in business since fired military brass has long been a most lucrative product they've traditionally handled.

Meanwhile, the big losers are the U.S. Treasury (U.S. taxpayers), and civilian ammunition consumers who will see higher prices and more shortages in the ammunition marketplace from this scheme.  U.S. gun owners are effectively being taxed by this scheme to provide greater profits for ATK.

There is one additional motive at work here.  In part, this juicy scheme is being sold to military installation commanders with the reasoning that "We cannot allow this reloaded ammunition to fall into the hands of militias."  The sell-direct-to-ATK idea is being sold to installation commanders as a way to deprive imagined U.S. civilian enemies of firepower.

Quotes from ATK program sales literature:

"Currently handling brass scrap for ATK Lake City –– for sole purpose of recycling material and preventing any reloading of spent cases by the public with military grade brass."

"Keeps Military Grade Brass from being re-loaded by unauthorized users."

"To PREVENT anyone from using your scrap ammunition components for non-military purposes." (Emphasis in the original)

"Assurability for the [military] installation, that no one can use this cartridge against law enforcement or our military personnel, by reloading the case."

It's time to cure this problem finally with congressional action.  The Montana congressional delegation is spooling up to address this issue.  Senators and Representatives from other states need to join the Montana delegation in fixing this problem finally with congressional direction to DoD to require that all expended military brass of civilian-useable calibers generated domestically goes through the public auction process.  This will benefit the U.S. Treasury, America's gun owners, and the adequacy of the ammunition marketplace.

- End -

http://www.progunleaders.org/ammo/ATKOverviewBrassProjects-1.pdf

http://www.progunleaders.org/ammo/SCSBrassRecycle%28small%29.pdf

I don't have a problem with ATK working deals with installation commanders. If I was working at ATK I would go after this as a cost reduction effort.

Ouch

The installation commanders have a duty to the public to maximize the benefit to the public that they supposedly serve.  That would mean sending the brass to Gov. Liquidation, not destroying it simply because it puts more money directly in their pocket.

Shame on ATK for promoting this vile nonsense.  They fit the textbook definition of hypocrites, arguing for keeping military ammo from civilians then selling their manufacturing seconds to... civilians.

This is so ridiculous my BS meter is pegged.  I wonder if it is verifiable?
ETA:  I just read the ATK solicitation PDFs.  Yes, it's a real program.

Touting the dangers of military grade spent brass?



"But these are MILITARY 9mm casings. They do a much better job of holding the powder, making bullets fired from them 3.7 times deadlier than normal."

Who the fuck runs ATK?  Sounds like they need called on the carpet over their bullshit statements in this literature to me.

http://www.atk.com/CorporateOverview/corpover_ataglance.asp

Well I have a problem with it.  We already paid for the brass once and recycling is more cost effective for everyone - including the military.  And it's not a damned cost reduction, it's a profit enhancer.

Destroying or rendering military surplus of any kind unsuitable for civilian use should be a damned crime as well as "giving" it to another country before offering it for sale to citizens - especially individual weapons.

"F" the base commanders. "F" Alliant and the horse they rode in on and double "F" the concept of citizens as the "enemy"

Too bad it looks like ATK is the parent company of Speer, Federal, RCBS, and Weaver.

http://www.atk.com/capabilities/c_commercial_default.asp

ETA: and Alliant powders, Champion, Eagle Industries, Gunslick, Outers, and others. Looks like they don't mind you reloading their brass as long as you bought it from them.

Tag for future reading and digestion.

Fort Hood crushes a shit ton of cases, including .50, 7.62, and 5.56.  Then they just take it down to the post recycle center

+1



Needs to go to DRMO. Can't do a non-competitive contract for stuff like that.

Yup, same morons behind this policy are the same ones that limit HST and Gold Dots and other "Law Enforcement Only" HP ammo sales to every American that cannot produce proof that they are a LEO.

They are supreme dick holes about this issue; they have stopped selling ammo to vendors that they find selling the above HP ammo to anyone willing to pay. They are super supreme dick holes especially when they do sell that "restricted" ammo to anyone but in 20-25rd boxes at the 50rd box price.

Would you love to see the Green Party come in and support legislation that would ban de-milling brass? It is just more efficient for recycling to use once fired brass.

So should individual soldiers be allowed to take the same brass to sell and supplement their off-base housing allowance?

ATK Space Systems
Headquarters
ATK Space Systems
P.O. Box 98
5000 S. 8400 W.
Magna, UT 84044
Phone: 801-251-5911

They just took a huge hit from Obama canning NASA programs such as Constellation. Suddenly, I don't feel so bad for them...

Why would you call their space division?



Corporate
       Headquarters


7480 Flying Cloud Drive


Minneapolis, MN 55344


Phone: 952-351-3000


[email protected]





 

WOW, I am surprised this got out already.

I have been researching this out, and it looks BAD for ATK.
An officer at Fort Riley contacted me about it after speaking with an ATK rep
concerning the destruction of fired brass.

This individual was very insistent that the brass needed to be destroyed to keep
it out of the hands of terrorists or it could be reloaded and used against the US Mil.
or LE. He stated that soldiers lives were being endangered by not destroying the brass.

ATK literature on this is pretty damning from what I have seen.

ATK very well might have just set them up to be the next Zumbo...........


stay tuned for more......

Installation commanders have no duty to maximize any public benefit (whatever the hell that means).

Go press!



 

This type of program is ripe for abuse.  The installation commander could potentially be in control of millions of dollars in his "discretionary account".  



I also resent the implication that US citizens are listed among the potential terrorists who benefit from recycling brass.  IIRC there are significant hoops to jump through to export fired brass.  



The terrorist thing is a red herring.  This is about money and ATK attempting to be the sole supplier of new brass/ammo.  If they can prevent once fired brass from hitting the civvy market, their market share increases, while our options decrease.  



This is BAD.

Someone needs to get their ass fired over this deal.



 

No such thing.

lets get a letter out ASAP to our congress critters

How is having the scraps turned back into new cases at a discount then loading it into cartriges that get sold on the civilian market as surplus going to "PREVENT anyone from using your scrap ammunition components for non-military purposes."

However this is seems more about increasing profits through good business practices to me, rather than trying to bone my reloading brothers. Obviously they cannot reload brass for military contracts. It must be new brass. Metals are still in high demand and hard to come by. This seems like a very logical way to get their hands on a ready supply of the needed materials to continue producing the cartrige cases they need to meet their contracts and to turn a nice profit.

The notion that there is anything "special" about military grade brass so as to require that it be demilled is absurd.

Pure and simple.

WE HAVE PEOPLE IN CHARGE OF ATK THAT ARE PART OF THE FASCIST TAKEOVER.

Look at these huge companies, investment houses, etc. that are suddenly supportive of anti-business, anti-freedom and pretty much anti-AMERICAN laws and regulations being put forth.

The hippies and leftists of the 1960's and 1970's are now the ones RUNNING MAJOR AMERICAN INDUSTRIES.

and guess what?.....

THEY STILL HATE AMERICA.

ETA:  CEO of Exxon, GE, Goldman, anything Soros related, Warren Buffett, Bill Gates.

Basically the fox is running the henhouse.

Why does the .mil NOT use reloaded rounds for training?  WHY?

That is nonsense. They have the duty of running their assigned installation as effectively and as efficiently as possible. If they have the ability to take a waste product (which brass is) from a consumable that they purchased, and turn that into additional funds for the installation (which results in increased training budgets ect..) then they should take advantage of that opportunity.

 
















 

Oh...

and anyone that is capable of "relaoding the case to use it against LEO and .mil" can utilize theirs skills in much more deadly and effective arenas then simple ammunition.

This is 100% preparation for FULL-ON AMMUNITION BANS.

According to the article, there is.





 

Letter sent to ATK. We'll see if it gets any response.

Do you have any more info on this? ATK just threw themselves under the bus from what I read in the OP.

TAG for more info.

So who do we contact?

The article is incorrect:

DODI 4715.4 requires that proceeds from a qualified recycling program will be used to reimburse the installation for costs incurred by the installation in operating and maintaining the qualifying recycle program. This includes the purchase of new or replacement equipment for recycle purposes or construction of covered work areas and covered storage for recyclable material. Up to fifty percent of the remaining proceeds may be used to fund pollution abatement, energy conservation, and occupational safety and health activities. Any remaining proceeds may be transferred to the installation Morale, Welfare and Recreation Fund.

MWR funds are Non-Appropriated Funds (NAF) and their use is limited by Service-specific regulations (Army=AR 215-1)

The only type of fund that can even remotely be considered "discretionary" are Official Representation Funds, but even they have to be expended according to very limited policy and regulation.

Good luck with that.  We deal with those assholes all the time.  As a supplier, they're almost as bad as Life Systems on the old Space Station program.

If only Norinco wasn't prevented from selling ammo in the US they'd have some competition.

This is the "do it for the children" line.  Resorting to this tactic is PROOF that they are making more money with this underhanded shit.  They could have used a million different, more logical ways to explain this, but they use the one no Senator wants to be on the record as running against.   It really pisses me off that these assholes use the "safety" of our troops as a shield for their BS.    A special kind of low.  Someone in their PR department is about to join the ranks of the unemployed(able).


Zumbo....excellent idea.

ATK is a HUGE name in the firearms world.  They own a ton of folks.

Wow - sounds like it might be an anti-trust violation, or maybe a violation of the RICO statute / anti-competitive action.

Maybe ATK needs to be investigated for possible criminal activity here?

Just a simple EUC form and there's 500,000 lbs (yes that's Five Hundred Thousand) of 5.56 brass in auction @ Gov Liq waiting for an ARFCOM Group Buy over at Ft. Benning folks.  
 Likely 100% Lake City recent stamps.



I'm in if you are.

I am not saying to call them, I am explaining that I felt bad for them as a company due to their income loss with NASA programs being canceled. Now, I don't. Most people associate ATK as a Salt Lake area based company who designs/builds rockets.

Working on it!
Trying to get the person in question to hang them self in writing.
If they had approached this simply from a business standpoint it would be one thing, I understand maximizing profits.
BUT, they are doing it from the, "You need to destroy this brass to keep it out of the hands of domestic terrorists so it wont be
reloaded and used against US troops or LE officers"

A LOT of ammo companies reload mil brass, including Black Hills, which means higher ammo prices all around.......
think about it. They are insinuating that YOU are a possible domestic terrorist.....

I wouldn't have cared that much except for the language used. That alone means contacting local federal Reps. to ask that they look into said problem. Can the OP scan and post the brochure with the language.

Don't bother writing to ATK.  

Rather, write to Black Hills and the Sport Shooting Foundation (folks that run the S.H.O.T. show).  

Imagine if all ATK's competitors threatened to boycot SHOT if ATK shows up?  The industry as a whole needs to pressure ATK.  Trust me ATK does not give a rat's ass about you, the civilian customer, or your letter/email.  

Black Hills has a lot of LEO contracts.  Imagine if those LEOs or an LEO association contacted ATK.  THAT might get their attention.  Or congress.

David,



My Congressman's office wants to talk to you regarding this.  Would you mind sending me or them directly your contact info?  I gave them a link to this thread, so you all be polite as the Honorable Jack Kingston is probably one of the most honorable in DC at the moment.  



Thanks.  

I suspect they're concerned about some random soldier's ability to QC his reloaded cartridges adequately.  Also, 5.56 pressure loads wear brass rather quickly, they'd not get very many reloads out of the brass.  It's probably cheaper for them to sell it and defray the cost of purchasing new cartridges with the proceeds.  And definitely safer.

Coming from the same company that likes to sell the population reloading components

Government fiscal management doesn't work that way.

You can't use the proceeds of a recycling program to defray the cost of new ammunition purchases.  Ammunition purchases are only authorized by Congress and funded through their own appropriation.

[email protected]   tell them you wont buy any more of their stuff.

This should be a highlighted and tacked.  People need to know about this.

This is literal sabotoge.