As a Catholic (albeit a Lapsed one), I still think the Church is at least partly responsible for the abject poverty in much of South America. In several areas of policy, the activity or inactivity of the Church seems to exacerbate the problems facing the people there, and hold them in a state of apathy and ignorance. What makes that relevant and hard to bear is that when the Church now chooses to act, they do so to the detriment of this nation...and they ignore the base issues that led to the current state of affairs.

The Church has a long history of inactivity at best, or collaboraion with the ruling classes that have run the economies and population of South America into the dirt and muck. Where did the Church stand up against Pinochet, Allende, Chavez, etc? When did they stand up against the Castilians and the other elite that control all economic activity, for their exclusive benefit? But now they freely criticize the immigration policies of our nation, on the grounds of "human rights". Did they fight the dictators? The patricians? No. But now they feel free to fight the democratically elected leaders of America.

I would suggest the Church would not have this "human rights" disaster on their hands if they chose to raise the people of South America out of their slavery...if they pressed the need for Education at all levels (but educated people tend to leave the Church). Or, if they pressed the need for Birth Control (but that would mean less followers in the Flock). Or stressed the need for the people to seize their own Economic Destiny (but that would alienate the extant Power Structure...and we have seen that the Church is not interested in doing that). If they had done these things, then perhaps we would not have this seething mass of Humanity surging North.

Or perhaps in their view the policies of the Roman Catholic Church, made by the "infallible" Pope in Rome, are universal, superceed the Laws of Nations, and that what is good for the Church...is good for all?

I think their lame corrupt political systems are more to blame than anything else.  We're lucky to be founded by the English.  One thing those people are good at is political organization, and it turns out to be a very crucial thing.  Look at all the Commonwealth countries and the US.  They all do quite well.

Political organization is one thing; the freedom of the individual to determine his own destiny has more to do with our success IMHO.

We try many ways; some fail, but the innovaters create a new world, and greater wealth.

The Catholic world-view is more of a group effort, directed from above...and when the leadership fails, there is no recovery possible, because they can throw the whole weight of the society into the failed effort and never have to account for it. Just like Communism.

Here we reinforce success and avoid failed paths. They don't have to worry about that; some economic activity will be generated after all, and the elite can skim the best for themselves.

The Catholic Church is a Whole Lot to blame for the conditions in Mexico and down through South America.

Some of the richest most ornately decorated churches on the continent, Attended by some of the most poverty stricken parishoners.

Raw numbers of members equates to Power in the Church's doctrine, but this doctrine is killing the already slim abilities of families to climb out of the cycle of poverty. And there is,of course, the carry-over to the illegal immigrants. Almost all of the young, 20ish "undocumented" females I see have already started with the "stair step" family routine.

Same church is not a bit shy in reminding us, and other prosperous nations, that it is our duty as christians to aid, feed and clothe, these masses.

Swell system!

the church is about saving souls not making people better off. If you feel like blaming anyone blame their goverments. There is a really good report on Pope John Paul,s life that covered this very topic to some degree and basicaly told why he did what he did.

No, I think the two biggest problems are

1. Corruption
2. Lack of property rights.  In some S. American countries it's next-to-impossible to be issued a land deed for a specific place.  Everyone is by default a squatter.  No one can build equity.  Have a place to call their own, etc.  Read an interesting essay on this point (#2) which said it is /the/ cause of South American poverty.

Just go to the immigration office in corpus christi.  They have a sign for Catholic Charities to help you fill out your immigration papers.

Quoted: I think their lame corrupt political systems are more to blame than anything else.  We're lucky to be founded by the English.  One thing those people are good at is political organization, and it turns out to be a very crucial thing.  Look at all the Commonwealth countries and the US.  They all do quite well.

The ones that did a good job of overwhelming the indiginous people with European imports have done pretty well, anyway.  But Commonwealth countries like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria, South Africa, Zimbabwe, and the like don't make my list of well run countries.  YMMV, of course.  

Quoted: The Church has a long history of inactivity at best, or collaboraion with the ruling classes that have run the economies and population of South America into the dirt and muck. Where did the Church stand up against Pinochet, Allende, Chavez, etc? When did they stand up against the Castilians and the other elite that control all economic activity, for their exclusive benefit? But now they freely criticize the immigration policies of our nation, on the grounds of "human rights". Did they fight the dictators? The patricians? No. But now they feel free to fight the democratically elected leaders of America.

So, do you hate the US as much as you hate the Church? After all, the US backed Bin Laden, and Ho Chi Minh, and Fidel Castro, and Chairman Mao. The Church is made of people, like the US government, and people make mistakes. But as far as feeding the poor, clothing the naked, and taking care of the sick, no entity, in all of history, has done more.
You must not confuse corrupt borderline heritical Catholic Bishops with the Church proper. Most of the US Bishops are barely Catholic. Many if not most are screeming queens. And most are borderline socialist/marxist.

Tag.  This should be interesting.  One thing that seems to be common in South America is high birthrates - regardless of whether or not the parents economic status can support the children.  These things often help to perpetuate poverty.



-K

There are Catholic priests trying to start a pro-capitalism movement in South America.  Problem is that many priests in SA are Sourth Americans.  I just think that the Church down there is a product of it's environment.  Just like the Church in the US has a problem with fags.  Product of the 60's environment.  It will take 30 years for the Church in the US to drive the fags out.  Just imagine how long it will be before SA changes!

Quoted: the church is about saving souls not making people better off. If you feel like blaming anyone blame their goverments.

I've got to agree with this.

I see this thread going downhill fast. IBTL.

My .02, while you can fault The Church all you want, its the people and the political stuctures.

Quoted: Quoted: There are Catholic priests trying to start a pro-capitalism movement in South America.  Problem is that many priests in SA are Sourth Americans.  I just think that the Church down there is a product of it's environment.  Just like the Church in the US has a problem with fags.  Product of the 60's environment.  It will take 30 years for the Church in the US to drive the fags out.  Just imagine how long it will be before SA changes! The homo population in the church is the same as it is outside the church, you may want to consider who runs the media and think why you never hear anything bad going on in any temples.

Well, no, not even close. In the Church the percentage of homosexuals is between 20 and 40%. And I know this from sources other than the liberal moronic media.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: There are Catholic priests trying to start a pro-capitalism movement in South America.  Problem is that many priests in SA are Sourth Americans.  I just think that the Church down there is a product of it's environment.  Just like the Church in the US has a problem with fags.  Product of the 60's environment.  It will take 30 years for the Church in the US to drive the fags out.  Just imagine how long it will be before SA changes! The homo population in the church is the same as it is outside the church, you may want to consider who runs the media and think why you never hear anything bad going on in any temples. Well, no, not even close. In the Church the percentage of homosexuals is between 20 and 40%. And I know this from sources other than the liberal moronic media. Post the non-biased source then. Link please.

Read "Goodbye Good Men".  I can attest to much of what it says first hand.

Quoted: Quoted: Read "Goodbye Good Men".  I can attest to much of what it says first hand. I thought you would try harder than that. I read Star Wars books personally, my friend has a Wookie in his closet too.

Sorry, what?

I am sorry to see that you donot understand the biblical basis for the CHurch's stand against birth control. It has nothing to do with more members, it has to do with preventing the creative power of the marriage union.  BTW, Calivin (not a Catholic by any means) said that birth control was evil as it murdered future soals.  Luther ( a fallen away Catholic like you) said it was pure evil as well.  This stance by the Church has been long thought out and weell established in both Catholic and protestant theology until very recently.

On education, the Church has been one of the largest providers of education in South andd Central America for centuries.  Cathlolic education has always been a part of the Church  and it is simply untrue that the educateed leave.  Your predudice is showing my lost brother!!!!  Many Catholic missions boast fine schools and many of the universities of the Americas (north and south weere founded by, run by and sactioned by the Church.  And educated flock is a flock that can be better saved and only the educated can become priests!

Every evil is not a Catholic one.  Yes the Churcch has done some terrible things, but not every terrible thing

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Read "Goodbye Good Men".  I can attest to much of what it says first hand. I thought you would try harder than that. I read Star Wars books personally, my friend has a Wookie in his closet too. Sorry, what? You believe everything you read in books? I said post a non-biased source, some book you read don't count. Momma always told me not to believe everything I read. I'll give you an example of a non-biased source, I can go to the USBOJ's (Bureau of Justice) website and compare the number of crimes in Wash D.C. to the number in Texas, Nevada, Arizona and Oregon. The number is always higher in D.C. and guns are banned there, proving guns lower crime. I like cold, hard statistics, not what some author put in a book.

So what would you consider an "unbiased" source? Both homosexual groups and get the homosexuals out of the priesthood groups are in close agreement as to the percentage.

Since you did not believe the conservative source here is a liberal one:
www.glaad.org/publications/resource_doc_detail.php?id=3049

This needs to be moved to the Reilgion forum.

Quoted: Quoted: So what would you consider an "unbiased" source? Both homosexual groups and get the homosexuals out of the priesthood groups are in close agreement as to the percentage. Then the statistics should be available online from both groups, post the links. I never state anything as fact if I can't back it up with proof. I'm just asking to see the proof of your "homo preists" statement.

See link above.

Quoted: From the above posted link.... There are no accurate statistics on the number of gay priests, though it is widely accepted that there is a higher percentage of homosexuals in the priesthood than in the general population. Some surveys have put the figure as high as 50 percent. Then.... "My research puts it more at 29 percent," said the Rev. Gerard McGlone, a Jesuit priest and psychology fellow at the Johns Hopkins University Medical School's Department of Psychiatry in Baltimore. McGlone said that in his survey of a random sample of 80 priests across the country, 29 percent said they were homosexual, 61 percent heterosexual and 9 percent bisexual. 29% to 50%+ and that is in the same article. I'm not seeing accurate stats at all but, enough with the thread hijack. Thanks for looking for a link.

The point is that it is alot more than in the general population, which is about 2-3%. NO survey has ever put it under 20% and a few have put it over 60%. I have read volumes of information, from both sides, on this, and the average seems to be between 30-45%.
Just wondering however if you are Catholic.

Wow, I had no idea this would devolve into an exposition on Homosexulality in the Church. Bummer.

Lots of guys are quick to throw baseless charges here. Hate the Church? When did I say that? I did not even imply that, and in fact I don't. Don't put words in my mouth, please. One can criticise without hating. So let me make it clear: I DO NOT HATE THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. What I am unhappy with are some of their policies...Birth Control being the biggest one. No matter what the talk about the "creative power" of the married couple, to even the blind it must bee seen that this policy is a total failure at promoting responsible family planning. There is altogether too much "creating" going on down there IMHO; they will NEVER fix their societies until they get their birth rates under control.

Education. The Church has been involved in it, so I have been told here, for a long time...with what results? Just like the Birth Control issue: great intent, miserable failure in practice. Where are the world-class Latin American universities? They have had, what, CENTURIES now to get it done?

ETA: thank God this thread was moved to the Religion Forum, where no one will see it

Quoted: Wow, I had no idea this would devolve into an exposition on Homosexulality in the Church. Bummer. Lots of guys are quick to throw baseless charges here. Hate the Church? When did I say that? I did not even imply that, and in fact I don't. Don't put words in my mouth, please. One can criticise without hating. So let me make it clear: I DO NOT HATE THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. What I am unhappy with are some of their policies...Birth Control being the biggest one. No matter what the talk about the "creative power" of the married couple, to even the blind it must bee seen that this policy is a total failure at promoting responsible family planning. There is altogether too much "creating" going on down there IMHO; they will NEVER fix their societies until they get their birth rates under control. Education. The Church has been involved in it, so I have been told here, for a long time...with what results? Just like the Birth Control issue: great intent, miserable failure in practice. Where are the world-class Latin American universities? They have had, what, CENTURIES now to get it done? ETA: thank God this thread was moved to the Religion Forum, where no one will see it

There are no world-class Latin AMerican Universities because they cannot get themselves to that level. The lure of drug money in Colombia and Peru, the stupidity of the governments in ALL the countries, and a desire to kill each other is what keeps them down...

If the Church had controlled the political and economic life of Mexico and latin american countries in the last 200 years (which is HASN'T) THEN MAYBE you could blame 'the church' for poverty.

As it is, the Church as an institution was outlawed in Mexico in 1917 and placed under draconian persecution in 1926 - the government kicked out missionaries, shot or exiled others, nationalized churches, and took exclusive control of education.

It didn't help that from 1917 to 2000 there was only one official political party in Mexico - the Partido Revolucionario Institucional (Institutional Revolutionary Party), which was/is SOCIALIST with a heavy tinge of marxism and governed on an openly anti-Catholic way....

So SINCE THE CHURCH IN MEXICO HAD BEEN GUTTED AND REPRESSED FOR THE 20TH CENTURY, I don't see how you can in fairness blame them for what they had no direct control over.

Ditto in large part with the other Latin and South american countries.... the people in charge, the landed gentry and aristocrats weren't by and large 'good catholics' and hence the church hasn't had a monopoly on political and economic power in those countries since the early 1800s.

But as a social entity it has endured despite bloody and open persecution and inroads made by Protestants funded by their US brethren. Mormons and JWs have sought to proselytise as well bringing food, clothing, and medicines to the people they 'evangelize' (nothing wrong with that per se, but hard to tell if people are coming to listen to your 'word' or to get your freebees.

Most protestants see a big church and ASSUME it was built on the back of the poor - rather than, by the poor, for the poor... and then assume that all the corruption etc is totally the effect of Catholicism rather than, say, official Atheism and anti-clericalism.

nm, already posted

Quoted: official Atheism and anti-clericalism.

which countries in SA are officially atheistic?

Quoted: The Catholic Church is a Whole Lot to blame for the conditions in Mexico and down through South America. Some of the richest most ornately decorated churches on the continent, Attended by some of the most poverty stricken parishoners.

Quoted: Most protestants see a big church and ASSUME it was built on the back of the poor - rather than, by the poor, for the poor... and then assume that all the corruption etc is totally the effect of Catholicism rather than, say, official Atheism and anti-clericalism.

Kind of like Lakewood Church (Joel Osteen), The Crystal Cathedral (Schuller) and such?

Its a double standard.