I recently took a 2-day rifle course at Front Sight NV. The curriculum seems geared more toward the novice shooter, so maybe the student base plays more into my observation.  Also, the proximity to California means they get a lot of students who are somewhat limited in how they can configure their rifles (there were comments of people using bullet buttons in the class).

There were 30-ish students in my class, with all but two shooting some variety of AR15. I brought along an SBR, initially topped with a 10.5" Aero Precision upper.  Half way through the first day, I swapped uppers. What I found was the rifle was too short stand up in the racks when we were sitting for the "classroom" portion.  I ended up placing the buttstock on the ground, and hanging the sling over the rack, but I was worried about it getting knocked off. (yes - I know it wouldn't hurt it, but I'd prefer to avoid dropping it).

I switched to an 11.5" upper with a 6" suppressor attached.  This overall length rifle now fit the racks just fine, and I shot the rest of the course with this upper.  

During the course, I noticed one other shooter running an SBR, with a 11.5" upper.

With that background, my observation:
Nobody commented on / asked about the two short rifles in the class, including when I was shooting the obvious shorty with no silencer attachment.  

However, as soon as I switched to the suppressed upper, I had probably 10 or 12 people asking "what's that?", "is that a silencer?", "is that real?", "so did you have to get a stamp for that?", and similar questions.

Maybe it's that I had a bright, shiny stainless attachment on the end of the barrel.  But it made me wonder if the general shooting public is a) not all that observant, or b) becoming accustomed to short rifles, but not silencers?

most people dont know about sbr laws. with ar pistols being so popular i see a lot of un stamped sbrs and most people have no clue its not legal

This.

Silencers are also illegal in California so you don't see any of them here.  If you had some cali students in the class that may have been where the interest was coming from.

An "unstamped" SBR is not illegal.  You only have to have it stamped if you plan on selling/giving it to someone else.

I have a couple of SBR's and SBS's, none are stamped/engraved with my trust info.  If I ever decide to sell any of them, then I have to have them engraved before I transfer ownership.

You need to read up on the law, and pronto.

that would be wise to do....... Right after you separate the parts and put them far far from each other!

And here come the black helicopters.

Seriously, you're breaking federal law and need to do some research if you're serious.

ETA : I can't tell whether or not you're meaning "unstamped" as unengraved, or you don't have a tax stamp.

I was not here.

 

You guys are my witnesses.

Dafuk???

Maybe I should have been more clear, but specifically what I was referring to is converting a pistol to an SBR by the addition of an actual stock, or making an SBS out of an already existing shotgun by replacing the longer barrel with a shorter one, when using a Form 1.

So, no engraving, but YES, you have a tax stamp.  Maybe that's where the confusion came in. When endofdays stated "unstamped", I thought he meant "unengraved". Otherwise, how would you know an SBR was "unstamped" simply by looking at it?  That's also why I used "stamped/engraved" in my original reply.

Yes, I have proper tax stamps for all my SBR's and SBS's. No, none of them are engraved.

Educate yourselves

That's the entire article, but here's the pertinent section for those of y'all that don't wanna click:

"According to the ATF, the process of creating an NFA device (even if it only means adding a stock to the gun) constitutes “remanufacturing” the firearm. As such you (the person who filed the Form 1) become the manufacturer of the NFA device. In theory this means that the firearm needs your information (name and location) marked on it as well, but according to the ATF that might not be the case.

If you manufacture a NFA device from an existing firearm, according to the ATF you DO NOT need to immediately engrave your information into the firearm. Much like how firearms manufactured from a 80% lower receiver don’t require engraving upon completion, the ATF believes that the mere act of manufacture of an exiting NFA device doesn’t require additional engraving. The existing serial number is sufficient for identification.

So, when do you need to engrave your Form 1’ed SBR? The answer: when you intend to sell it. Engraving requirements apply to firearms that are intended for sale in interstate commerce, so when you go to sell your gun you’re going to need to have it engraved.

An interesting wrinkle is that this applies even if you have removed the NFA device from the registry. According to the ATF the moment the firearm is returned to a Title I state (a rifle with a 16-inch barrel, for example) the gun is no longer a registered NFA device, but the registration record remains in their database. To have it removed you need to send them a letter notifying them of the disposition of the firearm and they will send a response in about…4 to 6 months. Even if your SBR has been removed from the registry AND you already have the letter in hand, the fact that it was remanufactured as an SBR at some point means your information needs to be on it.

In short, if you don’t intend to sell your firearm after turning it into an NFA device you don’t need to engrave it. But if you ever sell it later (even after removing it from the registry) you will need to have it engraved."

Now you know.......and knowing is half the battle. (Cue G.I Joe theme)

That's not an ATF publication and certainly not legal advice or meaning anything to the ATF.   I'll look it up later but the ATF does specify when a firearm built on a Form 1 must be marked. It is not "just before it is sold."

You should know better than to listen to anyone other than the source when dealing with ATF.  Using TTAG for legal info is just plain stupid.

I don't rely on folks other than the ATF, I rely upon the ATF and attorneys that specialize in these matters.  However, I do not have an actual ATF document to link. I didn't think anyone would wanna hear me say "the ATF states....".  

I also rely on the several Class III dealers that I have used over the years, as well as the local Class III Manufacturer that also does engraving.

Good friend is a Class III dealer and has an attorney on retainer that deals with firearms and Class III matters.  He agrees with the information I have linked about engraving a Form 1 SBR/SBS.

Also, a friend that works for Silencerco, and another that worked for AAC.

Quite frankly, I thought this was common knowledge.

You can trust some jackass on a blog, I'll trust a lawyer

https://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2010/03/batfe-engraving-requirements-f.html

SirSqueeboo, your linked article says HOW it must be engraved, not WHEN.

Sorry but that article is FOS.  The very first sentence you quoted confirms this.  ATF does not consider making a NFA firearm "remanufacturing" they consider it "making". And the form 1 that you file?  That is an application to MAKE and register a firearm.  

It is pretty clearly spelled out here

Regulations for licensees and nonlicensees are different. If you don't have a SOT as a manufacturer, then you need to get it engraved now.

cmshoot, I hope to God you're a troll (for your butthole's sake).  Nothing you've said is remotely true and is completely illegal.  I'm baffled you don't understand this.

Cmshoot:  I hope you're aware that ATF does monitor this site and all of your contact info is listed.

Just saw this response. Ensure you tell the ATF agents this when they fine and/or imprison you. Perhaps your friends will share that penalty along with you.

Thanks. I'll do you one better. Check 27 CFR 479.102.

The law is pretty clear on this one. And more reliable than the opinion of a blogger, a lawyer, or even an official ATF opinion letter. And it's certainly more relevant than what was reported by some guy that answers the phone at ATF.

The person applying to make the firearm is the maker. And the LAW states the maker "must legibly identify the firearm" and gives the methods of how that must be done.

I'm not sure why cmshoot even felt the need to post about this, as it's not relevant to the topic. I didn't mention engraving, as it wasn't an issue. My rifle is engraved as required, and the other guy had all of his info quite conspicuously carved in the side of the magwell.

Oh well.

So anyone hear if cmshoot has gotten served and protected yet?

Can't tell if serious or trolling.

My guess is he's at home parting out his AR's, getting them engraved, or hiring a good lawyer.  Or all three.

Or waving a blog post that he printed off at the mrap in his front yard?

Back to the original topic- The only NFA stuff I've seen in carbine courses are SBR's (mostly police issued), and a handful of suppressors at a precision course.  Other than shaking our heads at departments that issued 10.5" rifles with rounds that are less effective, I don't remember much notice being taken by the class as a whole.

The other interesting observation was when I took a shotgun class a couple months prior to the rifle class. In that one I was shooting a 14" Rem 870 (properly marked by the CII manufacturer, btw). That time I had about half the class, and all of the instructors asking about it over the course of the two days. By the end of the second day, one of the instructors was telling me he was going to have to build one, after watching mine.


It's curious the short shotgun would elicit so many comments, and the short rifle would not.

IMHO it's easier to spot a short shotgun than rifle and as someone mentioned earlier, the ar pistols are everywhere and have "attachments" that mimic the look of a stock.
My 1/2 cent worth