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Posted: 3/23/2015 1:09:45 PM EDT
I recently got my second AR, a LMT CQB16, and took it out to the range this past weekend. I am curious as what would be considered "tactically accurate" at 25 yards or so. If I shot fairly slowly I could get my shots within a couple inches of each other. Before I left I did a magazine dump, as fast as I thought was acceptable for an indoor range, and ended up with 90% of my rounds within a 4 1/2" area with a few flyers. The flyers were still chest/abdomen shots, but were not in the heart area of my target. I am not an experienced shooter by any stretch, but to me this seems like this would be more than acceptable in a shtf type of situation, given you could reproduce these results while under stress. Am I right in believing this? Also I just moved to Northern Kentucky and haven't been able to find a good range where I can shoot out to 100 yards, but I've been reading lots of forum posts about long range accuracy with rifles. When people post these I see people claiming to get 1" groups or around this with iron sights, but is this standing or with the gun in a secure setup where the shooter is merely pulling the trigger? Also as I have not had the opportunity to take it out to 100 yards I am curious how people can get this kind of accuracy without magnification. I have 20/20 eyesight, but I doubt I could hold the rifle on a specific area as I doubt I could see it at that distance. I am hoping to take an Appleseed course this summer to help me along, but any knowledge or advice you could pass my way would be greatly appreciated.
Link Posted: 3/23/2015 2:05:24 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I recently got my second AR, a LMT CQB16, and took it out to the range this past weekend. I am curious as what would be considered "tactically accurate" at 25 yards or so. If I shot fairly slowly I could get my shots within a couple inches of each other. Before I left I did a magazine dump, as fast as I thought was acceptable for an indoor range, and ended up with 90% of my rounds within a 4 1/2" area with a few flyers. The flyers were still chest/abdomen shots, but were not in the heart area of my target. I am not an experienced shooter by any stretch, but to me this seems like this would be more than acceptable in a shtf type of situation, given you could reproduce these results while under stress. Am I right in believing this? Also I just moved to Northern Kentucky and haven't been able to find a good range where I can shoot out to 100 yards, but I've been reading lots of forum posts about long range accuracy with rifles. When people post these I see people claiming to get 1" groups or around this with iron sights, but is this standing or with the gun in a secure setup where the shooter is merely pulling the trigger? Also as I have not had the opportunity to take it out to 100 yards I am curious how people can get this kind of accuracy without magnification. I have 20/20 eyesight, but I doubt I could hold the rifle on a specific area as I doubt I could see it at that distance. I am hoping to take an Appleseed course this summer to help me along, but any knowledge or advice you could pass my way would be greatly appreciated.
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One thing one must also consider is where you are shooting....are you in a free fire zone or in your home in a neighborhood. I'd say you accuracy was fine for 25 yards on a static target, but people usually move once you start shooting at them.
Realistically we aren't gonna be breaching doors in Fallujah, at least the vast majority of us aren't, I know my days of doing shit like that are over, so a home defense role with a rifle is what I envision and plan for.
Link Posted: 3/24/2015 5:00:40 PM EDT
[#2]
My responses to your question are likely to come across as very aggressive, I apologize in advance.  I do not know you or your level of experience, but (to me) your question comes across as uninformed.  You don't appear to know what you don't know.  Also my responses are based on your thread title of "Tactical Accuracy" which I take to mean self-defense against another human being (who is actively trying to take your life).

Quoted:
I recently got my second AR, a LMT CQB16, and took it out to the range this past weekend.

LMT makes a good rifle.  My LMT shoots about 1 ½ to 2 inch groups off the bench at 100 yards (using M193 and an Aimpoint 2" RDS).  

I am curious as what would be considered "tactically accurate" at 25 yards or so. If I shot fairly slowly I could get my shots within a couple inches of each other. Before I left I did a magazine dump, as fast as I thought was acceptable for an indoor range, and ended up with 90% of my rounds within a 4 1/2" area with a few flyers. The flyers were still chest/abdomen shots, but were not in the heart area of my target. I am not an experienced shooter by any stretch, but to me this seems like this would be more than acceptable in a shtf type of situation, given you could reproduce these results while under stress. Am I right in believing this?

You are asking the wrong question.  How long do you expect an opponent to stand still waiting for you to shoot them?  Speed and accuracy are mutually exclusive.  The faster you shoot, the bigger your groups will get.  When I shoot "tactically" the question I ask myself is: "How fast can I shoot and still get good hits?"  I want to push the limit of going as fast as I can while still consistently getting good hits.  The further away the target is, the slower I will have to shoot in order to consistently get good hits.  

Also my definition of shooting fast is not trying to simulate a machine gun, although learning to do accurate, quick double taps is a valuable skill.  My definition of shooting fast is bringing the gun from low ready, putting the sights on target and firing one shot as rapidly as I can while still getting acceptable accuracy.

My definition of good hits is the ability to cover the group (80% to 90% of the shots) with my spread hand laid flat on the target.  I also prefer (but don’t require) all of my shots to at least hit the target.  I use this standard regardless of distance to the target.  If the target is one yard from me, I am going to shoot a lot faster than if the target is 300 yards away.  But I am still trying to get upper chest hits that group the size of my spread hand (6" or 7" group).


Also I just moved to Northern Kentucky and haven't been able to find a good range where I can shoot out to 100 yards, but I've been reading lots of forum posts about long range accuracy with rifles.

I live in Wyoming where long range shots are 400 yards to 1000 yards.  If you don’t have to dope (compensate) for bullet drop or wind drift, it is not a long range shot.  The majority (twelve or so) of elk I have taken were shot at 400 to 500 yards.

When people post these I see people claiming to get 1" groups or around this with iron sights, but is this standing or with the gun in a secure setup where the shooter is merely pulling the trigger?

If you can not make 1" groups with iron sights off of a bench at 100 yards, you are: old, blind, inexperienced, your rifle/ammo combination does not allow it or you suck.  If you can consistently do it off hand; you are a god (or a professional shooter).  The reason I can not do it is: all of the above (except for inexperienced).  Forty five years ago, when I was young, had good eyes, shot 200 rounds a week for the previous number of years; I could hit a 12 oz pop can at 100 yards off hand about 4 out of 5 shots.  I still have 20/20 eye sight, but I can no longer see a crisp pop can at 100 yards and even more importantly I can no longer focus crisply on the iron sights.  

Truth be told, the best I was ever able to do was half inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards.  I was using a 9 power scope off of a bench and was working up hand loads for a specific hunting rifle.  Depending on the bullet/powder combination, the groups ranged from 2 inches down to the best of half an inch.  It takes a good shooter with a good rifle shooting ammunition the rifle really likes in order to get tighter than 1 inch groups (at 100 yards).


Also as I have not had the opportunity to take it out to 100 yards I am curious how people can get this kind of accuracy without magnification.

You get that kind of accuracy by having good equipment, being young with good eye sight and good eye-hand coordination, then shooting hundreds of rounds a week for years while concentrating on making each shot better than the last one.  

I have 20/20 eyesight, but I doubt I could hold the rifle on a specific area as I doubt I could see it at that distance.

Some of history’s greatest shots could not hold a gun steady.  You hit the target by learning to fire the gun as it passes through the target, not by holding steady on the target during the whole process of shooting. I tend to fire as the sights pass down and to the right over the target, it is just something learned by shooting a lot.

I am hoping to take an Appleseed course this summer to help me along, but any knowledge or advice you could pass my way would be greatly appreciated.
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Link Posted: 3/24/2015 9:50:39 PM EDT
[#3]



Quoted:




"tactically accurate" at 25 yards or so.....acceptable in a shtf type of situation, given you could reproduce these results while under stress. .
View Quote


Yeah I am sorry for not clarifying, but I thought the above would be understood as non-static shooting. Obviously in a shtf situation any targets will not be standing still. Next time I will make sure to explain so everyone can understand what I am asking. Also I did explain that I am not a very experienced shooter. I grew up hunting with a 870 and 10/22, but have not had very much experience shooting an AR. This is mostly due to time/money constraints and the lack of a decent place to shoot, especially at longer distances.












 




 
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 11:22:38 AM EDT
[#4]
Again I apologize for my aggressive tone, but it seems like every week a new guy gets on the forum and asks: “Tell me the secret of the ninja that will guarantee I will win every battle.”  Your question of: “How accurate do I need to be?” was that exact same question.  

It was almost as though you wanted to hear: “If you can shoot 1.25 inch groups, nobody will ever be able to harm you, you are a warrior god.  If you can shoot 2 inch groups, only Navy SEALs and Marine Snipers could ever possibly harm you.  And if you shoot 3 inch groups, you will only be able to defend yourself against zombi hoards.  So it has been written in the book of Ninja Secrets.”

You have to be able to shoot accurately enough to hit your target (whatever that target might be).  But more importantly in self-defense, you have to be able to shoot the target before it shoots you.  Somebody who is good with a gun knows how fast they can shoot and make good hits.  You learn where that line is with a lot of practice and by pushing yourself past it (shooting too fast) occasionally.

One of the drills I use to test my ability is called “dueling”.  First, you need a range that allows it (usually an outdoor range) and two shooters.  Next you need three plastic containers of the same size filled with water.  I usually use plastic milk jugs or plastic water bottles.  Place the three containers a couple of yards apart in a line parallel to the firing line at what ever distance you like.  The two shooters stand (two or three yards apart) on the firing line with guns at low ready.  On command, the shooter on the left shoots the jug on the left (as quickly as he can) while the shooter on the right shoots the jug on the right (as quickly as he can).  Once a shooter has burst his jug, he engages the center jug.  The shooter who bursts the center jug wins the duel.  

You have to shoot fast enough to win, but slow enough to hit the target.  New shooters usually loose because they shoot faster than they can hit and missing fast does you no good.  Once you get good at this, change the distance the jugs are from the firing line.  When the jugs get closer or further away, it changes the speed dynamic quite a bit.  When you are good at that, set the jugs up so the center jug is at a different distance (or is a different size) than the two outside jugs.  Again this changes the speed dynamic quit a bit.  I have shoot this drill at distances ranging from 2 yards out to 100 yards.  It will teach you a lot about your ability to make hits quickly on demand.  Also you will learn that you miss the jugs at 100 yards a lot less often than you will miss the jugs at 2 yards.

Get really good at this drill, then you will not need to talk about tactical accuracy.
Link Posted: 9/20/2015 10:46:36 PM EDT
[#5]
At 25 yards, a good tactical target is a 3x5" index card from standing position - which equates to a head shot.  I can't remember the exact time for the drill but under 1.5 seconds from low ready is good if you can do it consistently.  Two seconds is OK.  Doubles are also possible on the index card if you control them well.
Link Posted: 9/21/2015 3:18:00 PM EDT
[#6]
Everyone has their own way of zeroing the iron sights, you really have to figure out what you want to do with what you have.  The fundamentals are however,  the same.   The military irons are set in metric measurement.  Meters are longer than yards,  and over distance the deviation becomes more exponential.  So you should get used to measuring your range in meters if you really plan to gain a professional proficiency with military irons.  Most grouping results are from a bench and are intended to determine the mechanical accuracy of the rifle.  Some use fixed benchbrests some sand bags.  A solid mount clamped rest with a trigger actuator would remove the Human element and yield the maximum accuracy with the ammunition used.  





25 yards is not far by iron sight capability.  I sight my irons to 300 meters so they shoot low at the muzzle.  At around 50 meters the shot placement is within 1-2inches low.  300 meters hits a man sized target in the upper chest.  Haley Strategy has a good zeroing video on YouTube that helps explain different methods.  I could hit a 300 meter target from the standing position with irons because I have allot of experience.  Anyone can do this with proper form and trigger control.  Would I engage a target standing at 300 meters?  Probably not,  id take a knee,  and then go prone.  





At 25yards you should be able to shoot a playing card sized target standing with irons.  Go buy a deck of cards for the range.
I use an Eotech and a  3x magnifier so it complicates things.  The bottom 68moa ring is zeroed to 0-38 meters approx.  The center dot is zeroed to 300 meters and the bottom 68moa ring is zeroed to 500 supposedly.  I don't have a 500 meter range in my near vicinity.  





Haley explains how zeroing at distance really pays off and reduces the combat effective zone on the target. If you zero at 50 meters you have a 15inch lethal zone.  If you zero at 500 meters you tighten that zone to 5inches. He starts by using the Marine Corps 38 meter target card to zero before going out to 500.





This is using 62grain. 556 ammunition.  You switch ammunition and you will see a significant shift at long ranges just ad you would see deviations of error between yards and meters.





First use factory combat zero.  Colt marks the iron sight with combat zero,  most others do too.  Then zero at 38 meters and go  as far out from there 100-200-300-500. Keep in mind you'll need to use the small aperture at 200+ and all proprietary sights are different  but the ballistics are very much the same for a 16" 62g. 556



You should shoot from a bench or prone.  After this you will be able to hit a deck of cards at 25 meters or yards
 
Link Posted: 9/21/2015 3:31:40 PM EDT
[#7]
Before trying to be "tactical" just learn how to shoot first

ETA:
Then this.

Work some Dry practice in to the mix.

And if you are up for it, get involved in this.
Link Posted: 9/22/2015 11:16:11 PM EDT
[#8]
Find some good Instructors and get some solid, applicable training.
Link Posted: 10/7/2015 5:40:42 PM EDT
[#9]
90% of your rounds into a 4.5 inch circle with magdump is actually quite good IMO!

but the slowr deliberate accurate fire with effort should give you tighter groups that the couple inches you mentioned but it also depends on your position.
Standing freehand or seated supported???

Standing freehand your group is great even the slow one... seated supported slow deliberate fire should be more accurate at 25 yards than a couple inches.
What kind of ammo are you shooting?

Even with Russian ammo (admittedly the higher end steel) from the prone unsupported at 25 yds I can usually get within an inch .. thats my minimum acceptable accuracy at 25 yards for deliberate shooting...
From seated supported the rounds usually form a very close triangle maybe .3 inch diameter using an EOtech 512 w/o magnification.
Link Posted: 10/21/2015 1:38:37 PM EDT
[#10]
Got to admit I hoped this thread would die. The language I used was a little off "Tactically Accurate?". I should have just asked if this was acceptable accuracy at 25 yards standing freehand, this is the only way I can shoot at the local indoor range. I have yet to find a good club without a year or more waiting list so this is the only way I can shoot for the time being. But yes that was standing freehand and 55 grain 5.56 PMC X-TAC and shooting irons.
 
Link Posted: 1/5/2016 1:52:43 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
My responses to your question are likely to come across as very aggressive, I apologize in advance.  I do not know you or your level of experience, but (to me) your question comes across as uninformed.  You don't appear to know what you don't know.  Also my responses are based on your thread title of "Tactical Accuracy" which I take to mean self-defense against another human being (who is actively trying to take your life).


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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
My responses to your question are likely to come across as very aggressive, I apologize in advance.  I do not know you or your level of experience, but (to me) your question comes across as uninformed.  You don't appear to know what you don't know.  Also my responses are based on your thread title of "Tactical Accuracy" which I take to mean self-defense against another human being (who is actively trying to take your life).

Quoted:
I recently got my second AR, a LMT CQB16, and took it out to the range this past weekend.

LMT makes a good rifle.  My LMT shoots about 1 ½ to 2 inch groups off the bench at 100 yards (using M193 and an Aimpoint 2" RDS).  

I am curious as what would be considered "tactically accurate" at 25 yards or so. If I shot fairly slowly I could get my shots within a couple inches of each other. Before I left I did a magazine dump, as fast as I thought was acceptable for an indoor range, and ended up with 90% of my rounds within a 4 1/2" area with a few flyers. The flyers were still chest/abdomen shots, but were not in the heart area of my target. I am not an experienced shooter by any stretch, but to me this seems like this would be more than acceptable in a shtf type of situation, given you could reproduce these results while under stress. Am I right in believing this?

You are asking the wrong question.  How long do you expect an opponent to stand still waiting for you to shoot them?  Speed and accuracy are mutually exclusive.  The faster you shoot, the bigger your groups will get.  When I shoot "tactically" the question I ask myself is: "How fast can I shoot and still get good hits?"  I want to push the limit of going as fast as I can while still consistently getting good hits.  The further away the target is, the slower I will have to shoot in order to consistently get good hits.  

Also my definition of shooting fast is not trying to simulate a machine gun, although learning to do accurate, quick double taps is a valuable skill.  My definition of shooting fast is bringing the gun from low ready, putting the sights on target and firing one shot as rapidly as I can while still getting acceptable accuracy.

My definition of good hits is the ability to cover the group (80% to 90% of the shots) with my spread hand laid flat on the target.  I also prefer (but don’t require) all of my shots to at least hit the target.  I use this standard regardless of distance to the target.  If the target is one yard from me, I am going to shoot a lot faster than if the target is 300 yards away.  But I am still trying to get upper chest hits that group the size of my spread hand (6" or 7" group).


Also I just moved to Northern Kentucky and haven't been able to find a good range where I can shoot out to 100 yards, but I've been reading lots of forum posts about long range accuracy with rifles.

I live in Wyoming where long range shots are 400 yards to 1000 yards.  If you don’t have to dope (compensate) for bullet drop or wind drift, it is not a long range shot.  The majority (twelve or so) of elk I have taken were shot at 400 to 500 yards.

When people post these I see people claiming to get 1" groups or around this with iron sights, but is this standing or with the gun in a secure setup where the shooter is merely pulling the trigger?

If you can not make 1" groups with iron sights off of a bench at 100 yards, you are: old, blind, inexperienced, your rifle/ammo combination does not allow it or you suck.  If you can consistently do it off hand; you are a god (or a professional shooter).  The reason I can not do it is: all of the above (except for inexperienced).  Forty five years ago, when I was young, had good eyes, shot 200 rounds a week for the previous number of years; I could hit a 12 oz pop can at 100 yards off hand about 4 out of 5 shots.  I still have 20/20 eye sight, but I can no longer see a crisp pop can at 100 yards and even more importantly I can no longer focus crisply on the iron sights.  

Truth be told, the best I was ever able to do was half inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards.  I was using a 9 power scope off of a bench and was working up hand loads for a specific hunting rifle.  Depending on the bullet/powder combination, the groups ranged from 2 inches down to the best of half an inch.  It takes a good shooter with a good rifle shooting ammunition the rifle really likes in order to get tighter than 1 inch groups (at 100 yards).


Also as I have not had the opportunity to take it out to 100 yards I am curious how people can get this kind of accuracy without magnification.

You get that kind of accuracy by having good equipment, being young with good eye sight and good eye-hand coordination, then shooting hundreds of rounds a week for years while concentrating on making each shot better than the last one.  

I have 20/20 eyesight, but I doubt I could hold the rifle on a specific area as I doubt I could see it at that distance.

Some of history’s greatest shots could not hold a gun steady.  You hit the target by learning to fire the gun as it passes through the target, not by holding steady on the target during the whole process of shooting. I tend to fire as the sights pass down and to the right over the target, it is just something learned by shooting a lot.

I am hoping to take an Appleseed course this summer to help me along, but any knowledge or advice you could pass my way would be greatly appreciated.



These sound like good reasons most people would (realistically) best be served by a shotgun.....?
Link Posted: 1/8/2016 5:27:26 AM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:

These sound like good reasons most people would (realistically) best be served by a shotgun.....?
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No. If you want to see why, get some ammo and time together and IM me and we'll hit the range.
Link Posted: 1/9/2016 4:42:20 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:

These sound like good reasons most people would (realistically) best be served by a shotgun.....?
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When I first read your shotgun comment/question, my immediate thought was: No.  But it is a complicated enough question that I could not come up with a quick easy explanation as to why I felt that way.  I probably still can't, but will try.

The first analogy I thought of when I read your shotgun comment/question was of somebody complaining about not having enough trunk space (for luggage) in their 4 door family sedan and you suggesting that they buy a pickup truck instead.  Yes that addresses luggage capacity, but ......

There are Pros to using a shotgun for self defense, but there are also a lot of Cons.  A 12 ga shotgun using 00 buck is a death dealing machine when used within its effective range.  If 100 people are shot in the chest with a pistol, on average 6 will die.  If 100 people are shot in the chest with a center-fire rifle, on average 17 will die.  If 100 people are shot in the chest with a 12 ga, on average 66 will die.  There is no firearm available to civilians that is deadlier than the 12 ga.

Now for the Cons:  Shotguns carry limited ammo on board and tend to be slow and cumbersome to reload.  Shotguns have very stiff recoil that is substantially harder to control for quick, accurate follow up shots.  And probably the biggest Con, shotguns have a very limited effective range.  A standard cylinder bore shotgun shooting regular 00 buck shells has a 20 yard max effective range.  A shotgun with a Vang Comp bored barrel or using Federal TRU Flight ammo has a max effective range of 30 or 35 yards.  Maximum effective range for a shotgun is calculated based on the rate of shot spread and the ability to keep all pellets on the target.  The human body is typically 20 inches wide and a 00 buck pattern will have typically spread to 20 inches at 20 yards.  

So if I use a shotgun to engage somebody (who is actively trying to kill me with a firearm) at 100 yards, what are the odds one of the 00 buck pellets will hit them, what are the odds that hit will be someplace critical?  If the person attacking me is not a total idiot, they will probably use cover.  So my target may be an exposed elbow, foot or the side of their head.  By decreasing the target's size, I just reduced the odds of a pellet hitting that target.  Even at 20 yards I could easily miss an exposed elbow or foot, because the pattern created by a 12 ga 00 buck round has a lot of area inside that 20 inch circle not being hit by a pellet.

Inside of 20 yards (such as for home defense) a shotgun may be an excellent choice.  In gun unfriendly cities and states it may even be the best choice.  But for a general self defense weapon (to be used at some future time, under unknown conditions), I think a rifle offers more versatility and is usually be a better choice for the average person.  During the past couple of decades, the Police have moved away from shotguns and gone to rifles because rifles (on average) are more effective/useful.  I think the Police were wise to make the transition to rifles.


Link Posted: 1/24/2016 12:09:03 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
These sound like good reasons most people would (realistically) best be served by a shotgun.....?
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Shotgun = Breaching and birds
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