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Posted: 2/9/2016 12:54:35 PM EDT
So a good buddy of mine recently decided to buy himself a home defense pistol, VP9
Turns out, no big surprise, he's not that good a shooter. Basically he's pissed he bought a $600 handgun and can't put it in the same hole everytime like they do on TV! I did find out some/most of his problem the other day when we went shooting. I noticed it after his last round fired and the pistol went into slidelock (He's new so he doesn't count nor can he see the pistol in slidelock) He proceeded to TRY to fire his next shot when I saw the pistol just jerk almost uncontrollably, but obviously no round was fired. He even looked at me like, WTF did I just do! Question is, what's the best way to get over jerking? I recommended he pick up some Snap Caps and dry fire it out of him. Anyone else got any better recommendations? Thanks! |
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I would suggest snap caps as well. Load his mags for him, have him fire. A few good rounds, snap cap, live rounds.
Tell him to stop anticipating the shot, only his trigger finger should be moving and everything else in his upper torso should be in a support/stable role. |
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.22lr pistol ftw. Practice until your bank account is drained.
V |
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People don't understand trigger control until they feel good trigger control.
Have your buddy grip the pistol, aim at the target, and put his finger on the trigger. With your finger over his, press the trigger. He will start to flinch. Stop and correct. When a "surprise" break is achieved, your buddy will get the desired result. Repeat this exercise as needed throughout the session. |
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Your buddy has bad habits and is replicating the way his brain subconsciously thinks guns should act. He, like many, have had thier brains hardwired into acting based on decades of guns on TV and video games. The only way to counteract this is to train it out, and instill new good habits instead, that is going to take thousands of repetitions of dryfiring with perfect sight picture, and sight alignment.
THAT only works when he internalizes that there is no "quick fix" that will instantly make him better, and that it's going to take dedication (not even hard work, it's just a few minutes of dry fire a day). If he stopped live fire for 3 months, and did nothing by practice perfect position and aim, dry firing 30 times perfectly each day, then went back to live fire, the difference would be astronomical. (2700 repetitions, kind of the minimum to overwrite bad habits, more is better). |
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Quoted: But, Don't you think there is a psychological aspect to this? IE, you KNOW a 9mm is gonna have a certain amount of recoil VS. This .22 won't kick for shit! View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: OP's buddy already has bad habits, live firing .22 won't fix that. Dude needs to dry fire. But, Don't you think there is a psychological aspect to this? IE, you KNOW a 9mm is gonna have a certain amount of recoil VS. This .22 won't kick for shit! |
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Of course, no one ever sticks to hardcore dry fire schedule unless they are REALLY serious, so mixing dry and live fire works too. I try to at least keep up 3-5:1 dry fire to live fire, more when I'm not shooting much.
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Dry fire. Try to keep you friend motivated, like everything it just takes practice.
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Quoted:
Your buddy has bad habits and is replicating the way his brain subconsciously thinks guns should act. He, like many, have had thier brains hardwired into acting based on decades of guns on TV and video games. The only way to counteract this is to train it out, and instill new good habits instead, that is going to take thousands of repetitions of dryfiring with perfect sight picture, and sight alignment. THAT only works when he internalizes that there is no "quick fix" that will instantly make him better, and that it's going to take dedication (not even hard work, it's just a few minutes of dry fire a day). If he stopped live fire for 3 months, and did nothing by practice perfect position and aim, dry firing 30 times perfectly each day, then went back to live fire, the difference would be astronomical. (2700 repetitions, kind of the minimum to overwrite bad habits, more is better). View Quote I agree with the above, that basically boils down what I wanted to say without knowing how to say it! So, Thanks Madcap! I'll pass that along. And I agree with you and DangerJ about mixing snap caps with live ammo. That's so simple it's really brilliant! Anyone else got any NON-GD advice? Feel free to share. And Thanks for the help thus far. Ruck |
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Quoted: Your buddy has bad habits and is replicating the way his brain subconsciously thinks guns should act. He, like many, have had thier brains hardwired into acting based on decades of guns on TV and video games. The only way to counteract this is to train it out, and instill new good habits instead, that is going to take thousands of repetitions of dryfiring with perfect sight picture, and sight alignment. THAT only works when he internalizes that there is no "quick fix" that will instantly make him better, and that it's going to take dedication (not even hard work, it's just a few minutes of dry fire a day). If he stopped live fire for 3 months, and did nothing by practice perfect position and aim, dry firing 30 times perfectly each day, then went back to live fire, the difference would be astronomical. (2700 repetitions, kind of the minimum to overwrite bad habits, more is better). View Quote |
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No worries. The toughest part could very well be getting him to internalize that it's a him problem, not a gun problem. I grew up not being able to shoot a pistol period, I was born with no innate ability. It was embarrassing because I was born naturally gifted with rifle and shotgun.
With handguns, it's all about throwing every trick in the book at the problem, and doing so until it "sticks". The first things are fundamentals of marksmanship, after that it's all dry fire practice, then live fire at close range like (10-15'), and then farther distances. Everything after that is just fine tuning. One BIG thing I always do teaching, is start with targets really close. People tend to put targets way too far away for thier skill, and it ends up with big groups that hide where problems are. By shooting really close, even bad shooters have smaller groups, so it's easier to work on core fundamentals, and get the groups hitting where they are supposed to be, then start pushing the range out, keeping the hits centered, and working on keeping group size small. The other thing to remember, is new shooters don't have the stamina for a long period of shooting and getting any training value out of it. I've stopped people as early as 15-20 minutes into a 1 hour lesson because there was no value to them to push it, only detriment. Most new shooters can make it about 30 minutes to an hour depending on breaks and time BS'ing before they are smoked from a learning/ training perspective. Of course, since they are new a lot of the time they focus on other stuff and push past.
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Thanks again Madcap,
He does kinda realize it' a "Him" problem and not his gun, As I picked it up and put maybe 6 rounds in a 5" circle from 10 yards when he couldn't even print paper. But he still is in a bit of denial. He did try almost every trick in the book and went and bought a laser in the hopes it would help him "Correct" his problem after I had already told him to start dry firing. Thanks again for the help Madcap, I owe you a beer or 7! |
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Read this article. It's an archived file I wrote some years ago, about how I controlled my own flinch.
ESPECIALLY read the part marked THIS part is important! |
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Dry fire Trigger control...slow down. Squeeze, don't pull Thread title is interesting
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Dry fire with a dime balanced on the front sight.
Snap caps in the middle of a full mag are the best. I learned a lot when I had a friend load a revolver for me. He could load anything - from a full 6 rounds, to a 'Russian Roulette' load. Taught me real quick how bad I was jerking the trigger. I still find myself anticipating the shot from time to time, and it drives me crazy. |
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Quality dry fire practice over quantity. Try this exercise at the range with him. First, go over grip and trigger pull fundamentals.
Have him show clear, set striker/hammer and dry fire, and repeat five times. Look for that muzzle dive, jerk, etc., and point it out to him. The shooter should be able self diagnose problems after minimal practice. Load up and fire 1 live round. Show clear. Reset striker/hammer. Dry fire 1. Load one round, fire. Clear/reset. Dry fire 1. Load one round, fire. Show clear. Take a quick break and talk it over. Shooter should grasp the objective here and know that he can diagnose and correct what's going on. Load five, fire 5. Clear/reset. Dry fire 1. Repeat 5 live rounds. Assess the shooter's progress. That's about as long as you want to do this exercise, otherwise they'll begin to lose focus. Talk about how he can safely dry fire at home (ammo completely separated from the firearm, preferably in a different room), but stress quality over quantity. Five to ten perfect dry fires a week will make a world of difference. With good fundamentals, your shooter will be able to run with this on his own. |
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Only stopped by to see why in the fuck you would try to deny someone the joys of savaging their own Pud.
...Yeah, trigger control. |
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Quoted: If you could see him do it, it's actually quite funny, and VERY pronounced. That's why I put Jerking in the title instead of just flinching. He goes above and beyond. Thanks for the help! Ruck View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Thread title is interesting If you could see him do it, it's actually quite funny, and VERY pronounced. That's why I put Jerking in the title instead of just flinching. He goes above and beyond. Thanks for the help! Ruck Try one of these. Gripmaster I bought one years ago, that even had a clip-on rudimentary 'barrel' and a set of sights. Just sit in front of the TV ad dry-fire until your hand gets tired. Builds all the grip muscles amazingly, and allows 'trigger finger only' action. Any flinch is immediately apparent. However, the company appears to have been sold, and I cannot find the clip-on accessory. Part # IMC Products Corp. SGT1001. http://www.cedhk.com/shop/products/Gripmaster.html http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0085MX3SG/ref=s9_hps_bw_g200_i1 |
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Quoted:
People don't understand trigger control until they feel good trigger control. Have your buddy grip the pistol, aim at the target, and put his finger on the trigger. With your finger over his, press the trigger. He will start to flinch. Stop and correct. When a "surprise" break is achieved, your buddy will get the desired result. Repeat this exercise as needed throughout the session. View Quote This works especially well with a Glock where you can help him take the slack out of the trigger, take a pause and then follow through. Repeated dry firing is a good start. With a safe and empty weapon, have him come up on target. Place a spent casing on the top of the slide towards the muzzle and let him dry fire until there the casing stops moving. |
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Quoted:
Dry fire with a dime balanced on the front sight. Snap caps in the middle of a full mag are the best. I learned a lot when I had a friend load a revolver for me. He could load anything - from a full 6 rounds, to a 'Russian Roulette' load. Taught me real quick how bad I was jerking the trigger. I still find myself anticipating the shot from time to time, and it drives me crazy. View Quote Dime or a used piece of brass. Using brass and a snap cap, dry fire until you can keep brass or dime on the slide. |
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Someone mentioned pressing the trigger for your friend....try this similar but more detailed drill, I use it with my students. No, I don't have a little 'gun' instructor Icon, but I am a full-time Firearms Instructor.
Have the student take a full firing grip but put their trigger finger straight along the frame. Grip over their hand, keeping the web of your hand low enough to avoid slide bite. Have them take a precision sight picture on a small target (1" circle is great) at 3m. Fire five slow fire rounds, firing only when they tell you they have a good sight picture. Be sure to emphasize equal height, equal light in the sights. Next, have them place their finger on the trigger, grip over their hand, and place your trigger finger on theirs. Have them align the sights again, and fire five slow fire rounds, again emphasizing proper sight picture. ENSURE you demonstrate finding trigger reset Finally, step to the support side, and face them from the side. Have them take a full firing grip and place the index finger of YOUR DOWNRANGE side on the trigger, and have them place their trigger finger on top of your finger, pressing rearward while focusing on a even, smooth, jerk-free trigger press. Repeat as necessary. I have shot this drill with hundreds of students, and cannot remember a time when all three groups didn't have at least 4 of the 5 rounds touching by the second string. I believe this is most effective in teaching students proper trigger control, because it is more than a visual demo, is a a true kinestethic learning experience. It also helps with sight picture. I probably should make a youtube of this drill....I'll try to get one done in the next week or so. -Cav |
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Just as an aside, the term is "flinching".
ETA: The dummy round in the middle of a magazine is always revealing. |
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One very simple thing to try is double plugging ear pro while shooting. aka muffs over plugs.
Seasoned shooters underestimate the effect of a literal explosion going off in your face and hands. |
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Should have asked above...
Where on paper is he hitting? Is it consistent at all? Or just shotgunning the target? |
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Quoted: But, Don't you think there is a psychological aspect to this? IE, you KNOW a 9mm is gonna have a certain amount of recoil VS. This .22 won't kick for shit! View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: OP's buddy already has bad habits, live firing .22 won't fix that. Dude needs to dry fire. But, Don't you think there is a psychological aspect to this? IE, you KNOW a 9mm is gonna have a certain amount of recoil VS. This .22 won't kick for shit! I shot on a rifle team in high school, the majority of our matches were smallbore, but we had one or two matches a year where we shot precision air rifles. Those air rifles FORCED you to follow-through on your shots, with the longer dwell time in the barrel, they also had more sensitive triggers (quite a few unplanned discharges until we got better at keeping our fingers off the trigger until fully on target). Our scores pretty much always went up slightly after the time spent shooting air rifles, when we switched back to the .22's. Of course, shooting is a mental game. I completely head-spaced one day and shot fifty points below my average, so after the match I punched a board and broke my hand. Then proceeded to piss my coach off for the next two months as I proceeded to be shooting back at my average while my right hand was in a cast, was a VERy good way to make sure I was only using my trigger finger to fire :-) |
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Quoted:
Should have asked above... Where on paper is he hitting? Is it consistent at all? Or just shotgunning the target? View Quote Yeah, he's pretty much all over the place on paper, that is when he's even ON paper! There's not enough shot consistency for me to figure it out, much less advise him on what to work on. I'm pretty sure about 90% of his problem is his jerking. I need to get this worked out of him because not only is he a new shooter, but new to firearms in general and he's getting very frustrated/pissed that a lot of times he can't even hit a 12"X18" piece of paper from 20 feet with his $700 pistol. Which I totally understand. But I don't want him to get to the point where he just gives up. Thanks all for the help, it's greatly appreciated. Ruck |
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Dummy rounds randomly mixed in the mag will be an instant indicator of whether or not he's anticipating.
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Have him watch Travis Haley's VENTI 100 shot drill, it's on youtube, and I suck at embedding
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Quoted:
Your buddy has bad habits and is replicating the way his brain subconsciously thinks guns should act. He, like many, have had thier brains hardwired into acting based on decades of guns on TV and video games. The only way to counteract this is to train it out, and instill new good habits instead, that is going to take thousands of repetitions of dryfiring with perfect sight picture, and sight alignment. THAT only works when he internalizes that there is no "quick fix" that will instantly make him better, and that it's going to take dedication (not even hard work, it's just a few minutes of dry fire a day). If he stopped live fire for 3 months, and did nothing by practice perfect position and aim, dry firing 30 times perfectly each day, then went back to live fire, the difference would be astronomical. (2700 repetitions, kind of the minimum to overwrite bad habits, more is better). View Quote This. It took me a long time to train it out. |
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Dry fire and balance a coin on top of the barrel while doing it.
ETA: Meant slide. We balanced it on the end of a barrel in Army boot camp. |
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Thanks again for all the Helpful replies guys.
I got my buddy to pick up some snap caps, and they appear to be working. I told him to do 20-30 snap cap rounds per day, he said he'd been doing them, but I wanted to see what happened when we went shooting. So a week or so ago we made it to the range, and I took the advice of someone here (Sorry can't remember who) and loaded up a couple of his mags with random snap caps mixed in with live rounds. It was fun to watch, but also promising not seeing him react the way he originally did. Thanks again. Ruck |
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1. Persistent mismanagement of the trigger
• Lots of Dry Practice • Ball and Dummy exercises. Instructor or other student does the loading of the magazines. Sometimes may choose to load only one or two live rounds amongst many dummy rounds and point out the quality of the one round fired after they tired of jerking the trigger. • Consider eliminating recoil by using .22 cal. pistol and then graduated movement to heavier calibers • Consider videotaping student so they can observe themselves or use a laser sighting system. 2. Fear of the weapon • Lots of Dry Practice • Double-up on ear protection to reduce noise from others shooting on the line: ear muffs over soft ear plugs. • Use of light recoil weapon such as .22 cal. with graduated move to heavier calibers. CD |
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I use my 1895 nagant revolver for training my trigger finger. I try to keep the gun steady with a 30lb DA trigger pull........
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Dry fire and live fire. He should be surprised when it breaks. It's juts something he's going to have to work on.
Maybe buy him a lesson? Most people will learn more effectively from an instructor that's not their buddy. They have nothing to prove with some unknown qualified instructor. |
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Quoted:
People don't understand trigger control until they feel good trigger control. Have your buddy grip the pistol, aim at the target, and put his finger on the trigger. With your finger over his, press the trigger. He will start to flinch. Stop and correct. When a "surprise" break is achieved, your buddy will get the desired result. Repeat this exercise as needed throughout the session. View Quote Came here to post this. |
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Quoted:
Yeah, he's pretty much all over the place on paper, that is when he's even ON paper! There's not enough shot consistency for me to figure it out, much less advise him on what to work on. I'm pretty sure about 90% of his problem is his jerking. I need to get this worked out of him because not only is he a new shooter, but new to firearms in general and he's getting very frustrated/pissed that a lot of times he can't even hit a 12"X18" piece of paper from 20 feet with his $700 pistol. Which I totally understand. But I don't want him to get to the point where he just gives up. Thanks all for the help, it's greatly appreciated. Ruck View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Should have asked above... Where on paper is he hitting? Is it consistent at all? Or just shotgunning the target? Yeah, he's pretty much all over the place on paper, that is when he's even ON paper! There's not enough shot consistency for me to figure it out, much less advise him on what to work on. I'm pretty sure about 90% of his problem is his jerking. I need to get this worked out of him because not only is he a new shooter, but new to firearms in general and he's getting very frustrated/pissed that a lot of times he can't even hit a 12"X18" piece of paper from 20 feet with his $700 pistol. Which I totally understand. But I don't want him to get to the point where he just gives up. Thanks all for the help, it's greatly appreciated. Ruck You posted this a while ago, but I wanted to respond with a few things: - 1st, snap caps and dummy rounds only CONFIRM flinching or anticipation is happening. They only cure it if the shooter recognizes it and corrects it. The only way to cure flinching is...not to flinch. Slow fire grouping, with slow trigger pull, while focusing on isolating the trigger finger is a method to deal with it. - 2nd, from your comments above, I would spend more time on proper sight alignment and focus to correct his shooting drills, especially since he is a new shooter. Set up a grouping drill with perfect sight alignment as the goal. DO NOT USE THE DOTS ON THE SIGHTS. Clearly explain that he needs to judge vertical alignment by comparing the top edge of the front sight post with the top edge of the rear sights. The horizontal alignment needs to be by comparing the space between each side of the front sight post and the inside of the rear sight notch. Frequently shifting his vision from the front sight, rear sight, and target may be necessary. Instill in him that he should not be training to miss, i.e: if his sights move out of alignment while slowly pulling the trigger- stop pulling. Once realigned- continue pulling. One of the most difficult tasks with new shooters is programming their brains to accept what a perfect sight picture is. Bottom line, if you missed (barring ammo or gun issues)- you pulled the trigger with a bad sight picture, either by initially having a bad sight picture (improperly pointing the weapon) or by not seeing the sights move during the firing process (moving the weapon while firing), which is indicated by the sights. The sights are everything. |
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Quoted: 1. Persistent mismanagement of the trigger • Lots of Dry Practice • Ball and Dummy exercises. Instructor or other student does the loading of the magazines. Sometimes may choose to load only one or two live rounds amongst many dummy rounds and point out the quality of the one round fired after they tired of jerking the trigger. • Consider eliminating recoil by using .22 cal. pistol and then graduated movement to heavier calibers • Consider videotaping student so they can observe themselves or use a laser sighting system. 2. Fear of the weapon • Lots of Dry Practice • Double-up on ear protection to reduce noise from others shooting on the line: ear muffs over soft ear plugs. • Use of light recoil weapon such as .22 cal. with graduated move to heavier calibers. CD View Quote |
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You are correct dry firing or snap caps and a lot of practicing is the only way to stop this. it takes a 100 times of doing something the right way to get rid of the bad habit.
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