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Posted: 5/16/2015 3:11:37 PM EDT
[#1]
Stop closing your non dominate eye....... place a black patch on the eye shield instead . and see if you improve
Quoted:
Good afternoon guys, I've got at least one bad habit that I'm trying to break. I (fairly) consistently dump rounds low and to my left, and I'm a right handed shooter. This is especially noticeable from 25 yards and I have a difficult time keeping rounds within the "bottle" of an FBI Q target at that range. I focus pretty hard on all the fundamentals at that range but I still find myself dumping rounds. What am I doing and what can I do to break the habit? |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 3:18:32 PM EDT
[#2]
what are you shooting?
sounds like a flinch. dry fire more, learn your trigger, control your breathing and shoot at the "natural pause." I never subscribed to the "let the trigger break/recoil surprise you" as a means to combat recoil anticipation. you need to know exactly when and with how much force the trigger will break, especially if this is a duty gun we're talking about. dry fire more, and live fire more. in the end there really is no substitute for range practice (reinforcing good fundamentals) for getting your flinch under control. |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 3:22:31 PM EDT
[#3]
Stop squeezing with your entire strong hand. your middle finger squeezes the gun. the other two fingers are just along for the ride.
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Posted: 5/16/2015 3:24:37 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
what are you shooting? sounds like a flinch. dry fire more, learn your trigger, control your breathing and shoot at the "natural pause." I never subscribed to the "let the trigger break/recoil surprise you" as a means to combat recoil anticipation. you need to know exactly when and with how much force the trigger will break, especially if this is a duty gun we're talking about. dry fire more, and live fire more. in the end there really is no substitute for range practice (reinforcing good fundamentals) for getting your flinch under control. The particular weapon that I'm qualifying with is a Sig P229 in .40S&W, double action only. I'm not a huge fan of the pistol and HATE the super long trigger pull. Unfortunately my duty weapon is not take home and there is no pre qualification practice. The best I can do is practice fundamentals with one of my own pistols. I won't argue that I definitely need more range time though. Thanks for the quick responses. |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 3:26:57 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stop squeezing with your entire strong hand. your middle finger squeezes the gun. the other two fingers are just along for the ride. Never heard this technique before, but I'll certainly give it a shot. Pun intended. I'd like to perfect my fundamentals as I'll be shooting my first Governor's Twenty match this year with the National Guard. I will say I feel more comfortable with an M9 than I do with the Sig I shoot for work. |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 3:30:09 PM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 5/16/2015 3:34:35 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Never heard this technique before, but I'll certainly give it a shot. Pun intended. I'd like to perfect my fundamentals as I'll be shooting my first Governor's Twenty match this year with the National Guard. I will say I feel more comfortable with an M9 than I do with the Sig I shoot for work. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Stop squeezing with your entire strong hand. your middle finger squeezes the gun. the other two fingers are just along for the ride. Never heard this technique before, but I'll certainly give it a shot. Pun intended. I'd like to perfect my fundamentals as I'll be shooting my first Governor's Twenty match this year with the National Guard. I will say I feel more comfortable with an M9 than I do with the Sig I shoot for work. Look at the chart posted above, at about 8 oclock.... |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 3:39:09 PM EDT
[#8]
I think the main problem is in failure to call the shot.
When shooting you should have your focus primarily on the front sight. You should develop the ability to watch the front sight lift out of the notch during recoil. By doing this you will be able to call your shot, dumps won't come as a surprise because you watched the sight dip just prior to firing. Once you can observe it, the fix becomes intuitive...maintain sight alignment until recoil disrupts the sight picture and stay with it until you get another sight picture. I'd buy an exact copy of my duty gun and dry fire it until I had broken several parts on it. |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 3:53:39 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Look at the chart posted above, at about 8 oclock.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Stop squeezing with your entire strong hand. your middle finger squeezes the gun. the other two fingers are just along for the ride. Never heard this technique before, but I'll certainly give it a shot. Pun intended. I'd like to perfect my fundamentals as I'll be shooting my first Governor's Twenty match this year with the National Guard. I will say I feel more comfortable with an M9 than I do with the Sig I shoot for work. Look at the chart posted above, at about 8 oclock.... I must say, this guy's right |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 6:36:38 PM EDT
[#10]
When I teach people to shoot I have them manipulate the trigger of a DAO pistol the same way they would a DA revolver. If you are shooting DAO, do not shoot with the tip of your trigger finger. Place the pad of the trigger finger opposite the quick of the finger nail on the trigger. You may have to move the finger in or out slightly to find your sweet spot.
All of the pressure on the grip should be forward and aft. Grip pressure does not change during the firing sequence. The only part of your hands that moves is the trigger finger. Try dime drills during your dry fire routine, they work. I am right handed and shoot DAO pistols with the first distal joint touching the right side of the trigger. I have done this successfully in competition out to 50 yards for over 30 years. |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 7:36:55 PM EDT
[#11]
Other posts have better advice, but I feel your pain, I always drop rounds low on a Sig's double action. I don't know if it's the pistol design or feeling in my hand, but I sympathize. Those suckers are downright haunting on the bottom of the target.
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Posted: 5/16/2015 10:49:13 PM EDT
[#12]
Tag
Txl |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 12:23:56 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Other posts have better advice, but I feel your pain, I always drop rounds low on a Sig's double action. I don't know if it's the pistol design or feeling in my hand, but I sympathize. Those suckers are downright haunting on the bottom of the target. This seems to be the only pistol I do it with. All of my pistols I usually shoot a little left, and the M9 I shoot usually a little low. It's only the Sig that they end up dumped low and left. And thank you everyone for the replies. I've got some practice to do. |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 1:11:27 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryThis guide is correct. Also the 6 o'clock to 8 o'clock errors can be a combination of those. I find that if I grip too tightly with my strong hand my entire hand flexes when I pull the trigger. I have to grip harder with my weak/support hand and it allows my trigger finger to move independently from my strong hand. You want the hand firm and locked but just enough to allow the trigger finger to move without effecting the entire hand. Of course when the buzzer goes off that's often forgotten. |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 11:07:16 PM EDT
[#15]
If a right handed shooter is not anticipating recoil, trigger finger position will cause shots to hit low left when shooting a DAO pistol or DA/SA pistol on the first shot. Over-gripping the pistol with the support hand will also do this.
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Posted: 5/18/2015 11:19:35 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This seems to be the only pistol I do it with. All of my pistols I usually shoot a little left, and the M9 I shoot usually a little low. It's only the Sig that they end up dumped low and left. And thank you everyone for the replies. I've got some practice to do. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Other posts have better advice, but I feel your pain, I always drop rounds low on a Sig's double action. I don't know if it's the pistol design or feeling in my hand, but I sympathize. Those suckers are downright haunting on the bottom of the target. This seems to be the only pistol I do it with. All of my pistols I usually shoot a little left, and the M9 I shoot usually a little low. It's only the Sig that they end up dumped low and left. And thank you everyone for the replies. I've got some practice to do. Totally agree. I wonder if a Sig fan can weigh in, whether it's something about the brand's make/model that accentuates the muzzle dip. |
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Posted: 5/19/2015 1:03:45 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If a right handed shooter is not anticipating recoil, trigger finger position will cause shots to hit low left when shooting a DAO pistol or DA/SA pistol on the first shot. Over-gripping the pistol with the support hand will also do this. Respectfully I disagree with this. One should grip as hard as he can with the weak hand up to the point it causes tremors or wobble. |
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Posted: 5/19/2015 1:19:52 PM EDT
[#18]
You need to let the gun go off instead of making it go off.
Hold the gun as steady as you can. It will still move. Focus on sight alignment. Maintain that sight alignment while pointing at the target. As you do this, squeeze the trigger in a way that maintains sight alignment. If you feel a flinch coming or hold too long, abort. Retry. The chart might identify some problems, but it won't correct them. Dry firing with the technique I describe will help you. A drill I do for people is have them hold the gun aligned and on target. I pull the trigger with my finger over their's. They don't know when the shot is coming. They cannot anticipate it. |
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Posted: 5/19/2015 6:52:12 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Respectfully I disagree with this. One should grip as hard as he can with the weak hand up to the point it causes tremors or wobble. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If a right handed shooter is not anticipating recoil, trigger finger position will cause shots to hit low left when shooting a DAO pistol or DA/SA pistol on the first shot. Over-gripping the pistol with the support hand will also do this. Respectfully I disagree with this. One should grip as hard as he can with the weak hand up to the point it causes tremors or wobble. I am not talking about grip pressure. I am talking about support hand placement that interferes with natural point of aim. If the support hand is positioned too far around the firing hand the support hand will pull the pistol to the support hand side during the firing sequence. When the pistol recoils the front sight should move vertically through the target without any left and right movement. Try moving your support hand farther around the firing hand (support hand finger tips closer to firing hand wrist), use the push pull technique, fire a series of shots and you will notice a difference in point of impact. I agree that you want a firm grip, but if the hands start to tremble I ask the person I am coaching to ease off the grip slightly. |
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Posted: 5/19/2015 7:31:58 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am not talking about grip pressure. I am talking about support hand placement that interferes with natural point of aim. If the support hand is positioned too far around the firing hand the support hand will pull the pistol to the support hand side during the firing sequence. When the pistol recoils the front sight should move vertically through the target without any left and right movement. Try moving your support hand farther around the firing hand (support hand finger tips closer to firing hand wrist), use the push pull technique, fire a series of shots and you will notice a difference in point of impact. I agree that you want a firm grip, but if the hands start to tremble I ask the person I am coaching to ease off the grip slightly. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: If a right handed shooter is not anticipating recoil, trigger finger position will cause shots to hit low left when shooting a DAO pistol or DA/SA pistol on the first shot. Over-gripping the pistol with the support hand will also do this. Respectfully I disagree with this. One should grip as hard as he can with the weak hand up to the point it causes tremors or wobble. I am not talking about grip pressure. I am talking about support hand placement that interferes with natural point of aim. If the support hand is positioned too far around the firing hand the support hand will pull the pistol to the support hand side during the firing sequence. When the pistol recoils the front sight should move vertically through the target without any left and right movement. Try moving your support hand farther around the firing hand (support hand finger tips closer to firing hand wrist), use the push pull technique, fire a series of shots and you will notice a difference in point of impact. I agree that you want a firm grip, but if the hands start to tremble I ask the person I am coaching to ease off the grip slightly. ah, 10-4. I agree that one should experiment with the placement of the weak hand on the gun. When you grip the gun with your strong hand, there will be a gap along the grip and frame. Try to get as much of the weak hand as possible in that gap along the grip and frame. Note the results. It may help to conceptualize your grip as a "pinch" or inward pressure between your hands. No tension needed in the shoulders. The goal being to create as stable a foundation as possible to apply the fundamentals of sight alignment and trigger press. Repeatability is the key. Work your grip until it's automatic. Your grip, once figured out, should be the same every time. |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 1:22:45 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The particular weapon that I'm qualifying with is a Sig P229 in .40S&W, double action only. I'm not a huge fan of the pistol and HATE the super long trigger pull. Unfortunately my duty weapon is not take home and there is no pre qualification practice. The best I can do is practice fundamentals with one of my own pistols. I won't argue that I definitely need more range time though. Thanks for the quick responses. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
what are you shooting? sounds like a flinch. dry fire more, learn your trigger, control your breathing and shoot at the "natural pause." I never subscribed to the "let the trigger break/recoil surprise you" as a means to combat recoil anticipation. you need to know exactly when and with how much force the trigger will break, especially if this is a duty gun we're talking about. dry fire more, and live fire more. in the end there really is no substitute for range practice (reinforcing good fundamentals) for getting your flinch under control. The particular weapon that I'm qualifying with is a Sig P229 in .40S&W, double action only. I'm not a huge fan of the pistol and HATE the super long trigger pull. Unfortunately my duty weapon is not take home and there is no pre qualification practice. The best I can do is practice fundamentals with one of my own pistols. I won't argue that I definitely need more range time though. Thanks for the quick responses. Dry fire while focusing on the front sight. A lot. |
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Posted: 5/25/2015 3:19:14 PM EDT
[#22]
If this is the only gun you are doing this with I would classify it as pushing the shot. However you said you tend to shoot left with at least one other type of handgun so it also sounds like you are gripping the trigger.
Pushing the shot is basically the same motion as anticipating recoil. In anticipating recoil the shooter is trying to counter act the rearward force of the handgun before it happens; when pushing the shot you are trying to force the gun to go off at the moment you see your sights are lined up where you want them. The result is the same as anticipating recoil even though you are not afraid of the recoil. The long and heavy trigger pull of the DOA is screwing with your subconscious. Pulling the trigger on the DOA Sig is the same process as any other handgun it is just longer and heavier. Basically what I am saying is don’t over think it, trust in your abilities and apply the same fundamentals to it that you do to the other handguns. To see the anticipation you need someone to stagger load dummy rounds in your magazines. You should not know where they are and when you get to one you will see the gun dip when you pull the trigger. If you shoot left with other handguns it could be a finger placement issue but I do not harp on finger placement as much as I do proper manipulation of the trigger. If you are able to get to much finger on the trigger you are able to manipulate it properly. The heavier trigger pull is likely forcing you to engage the larger muscle group in the palm of your hand and you are gripping instead of pulling. However the longer stroke of the trigger could be inducing the gripping action and making you first knuckle come into play. The first and second knuckle on your trigger finger (starting from the palm of your hand) should be locked during the trigger pull. Your finger should pull the trigger straight back on the trigger. Dry fire the gun and pay attention to the motion your trigger finger is making; make adjustments in your grip to get proper placement and therefore proper manipulation of the trigger. Lastly, shooting is 90% mental. If you let the gun defeat you mentally all the training in the world will not fix the issue. |
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Posted: 6/8/2015 9:44:29 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Never heard this technique before, but I'll certainly give it a shot. Pun intended. I'd like to perfect my fundamentals as I'll be shooting my first Governor's Twenty match this year with the National Guard. I will say I feel more comfortable with an M9 than I do with the Sig I shoot for work. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Stop squeezing with your entire strong hand. your middle finger squeezes the gun. the other two fingers are just along for the ride. Never heard this technique before, but I'll certainly give it a shot. Pun intended. I'd like to perfect my fundamentals as I'll be shooting my first Governor's Twenty match this year with the National Guard. I will say I feel more comfortable with an M9 than I do with the Sig I shoot for work. I disagree with Stephen strongly in terms of the other two fingers being "along for the ride". The two last fingers on your hand happen to be the bulk of your grip strength, and gripping the gun stoutly is a significant part of control. There are multiple possible problems here: 1. Anticipation - pushing the gun down and away from the expected recoil impulse before the shot breaks. This is often confused with "jerking the trigger" because poor trigger control can contribute significantly to it occurring. 2. Jerking the trigger - Hitting the trigger in a manner sufficiently violent that you disturb the sight picture. A proper trigger press does not disrupt the alignment of the sights. 3. Milking the grip - failure to isolate movement of the trigger finger from the rest of the hand, meaning that your whole hand tightens as you attempt to pull the trigger causing the gun to move. Also contributes heavily to anticipation. It's likely you are doing all three. Dryfire is the remedy. If you can't get a pistol that's close to your issued weapon, a double-action revolver will do nicely. In dryfire you want to work on two drills: 1. Penny/dime/empty case on the front sight - With an EMPTY WEAPON you place a penny/dime/empty case balanced on the front sight of the weapon and pull the trigger fully to the rear without knocking it off. This teaches you what the proverbial "perfect trigger pull" feels like. 2. Wall drill - with an EMPTY WEAPON you pick a spot on the wall and concentrate your focus on your sights, working through the trigger pull looking for any movement in your sights. There's also a mental component: Think of driving a car. If you stomp the accelerator to the floor in one quick violent motion, the car lurches due to weight shift. Alternately, if you press the accelerator to the floor in a smooth continual motion there's no lurch as the weight transfer is minimized and controlled. Same with brakes...stomp the pedal and the car lurches. Apply consistent increasing pressure and it stops more sanely without throwing shit around the cabin. That's basically what you are trying to accomplish with a proper trigger pull...applying torque to the trigger in a smooth, continual movement from start to finish that will not disrupt the sights. When you get the trigger pull right it has a tendency to minimize the anticipation problem, although not eliminating it entirely. On DAO guns with a long trigger reach like the Sig, gripping the pistol more firmly with your whole hand might prove quite beneficial in keeping the pistol from moving in your hand as you apply torque to the trigger. |
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Posted: 6/13/2015 10:01:03 AM EDT
[#24]
Trigger control is the reason you are dumping your shots. Grip on has to do with the shot to shot recovery not your anticipation. If you want to fix it then take a fundamentals class such as Practical Fundamentals through Op Spec and then dry fire correctly and often. You will save way more money then the cost of the class in ammo and get straight answers rather then assumptions. The advice above is solid but some of it is nothing more than hiding the symptoms rather than fixing the problem.
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Posted: 6/16/2015 2:26:31 PM EDT
[#25]
Just remembered I had this thread lol. Thanks for all the help guys. I'm in the process of moving and getting my old house on the market so range time has been scarce. Hopefully soon I'll be able to get back out there and put this help in to practice. Keep the info coming, I'm sure the info in this thread is helping shooters other than myself.
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Posted: 6/18/2015 5:45:05 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The particular weapon that I'm qualifying with is a Sig P229 in .40S&W, double action only. I'm not a huge fan of the pistol and HATE the super long trigger pull. Unfortunately my duty weapon is not take home and there is no pre qualification practice. The best I can do is practice fundamentals with one of my own pistols. I won't argue that I definitely need more range time though. Thanks for the quick responses. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
what are you shooting? sounds like a flinch. dry fire more, learn your trigger, control your breathing and shoot at the "natural pause." I never subscribed to the "let the trigger break/recoil surprise you" as a means to combat recoil anticipation. you need to know exactly when and with how much force the trigger will break, especially if this is a duty gun we're talking about. dry fire more, and live fire more. in the end there really is no substitute for range practice (reinforcing good fundamentals) for getting your flinch under control. The particular weapon that I'm qualifying with is a Sig P229 in .40S&W, double action only. I'm not a huge fan of the pistol and HATE the super long trigger pull. Unfortunately my duty weapon is not take home and there is no pre qualification practice. The best I can do is practice fundamentals with one of my own pistols. I won't argue that I definitely need more range time though. Thanks for the quick responses. Yikes. So, the only time you fire your duty weapon is when you are qualifying? If that's the case and I were you, I'd buy an exact copy for practicing on my own dime. |
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Posted: 6/20/2015 2:15:27 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yikes. So, the only time you fire your duty weapon is when you are qualifying? If that's the case and I were you, I'd buy an exact copy for practicing on my own dime. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
what are you shooting? sounds like a flinch. dry fire more, learn your trigger, control your breathing and shoot at the "natural pause." I never subscribed to the "let the trigger break/recoil surprise you" as a means to combat recoil anticipation. you need to know exactly when and with how much force the trigger will break, especially if this is a duty gun we're talking about. dry fire more, and live fire more. in the end there really is no substitute for range practice (reinforcing good fundamentals) for getting your flinch under control. The particular weapon that I'm qualifying with is a Sig P229 in .40S&W, double action only. I'm not a huge fan of the pistol and HATE the super long trigger pull. Unfortunately my duty weapon is not take home and there is no pre qualification practice. The best I can do is practice fundamentals with one of my own pistols. I won't argue that I definitely need more range time though. Thanks for the quick responses. Yikes. So, the only time you fire your duty weapon is when you are qualifying? If that's the case and I were you, I'd buy an exact copy for practicing on my own dime. Yup, that's correct. You wanna know the best part? It's not even likely that I will get the same pistol every time I qualify. We have a deployment box with all of our team's pistols in it and we just grab one when we are doing any kind of shooting. The only items specifically assigned to me are my M4, ACOG, and Eotech. |
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Posted: 9/22/2015 7:32:36 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I must say, this guy's right Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Stop squeezing with your entire strong hand. your middle finger squeezes the gun. the other two fingers are just along for the ride. Never heard this technique before, but I'll certainly give it a shot. Pun intended. I'd like to perfect my fundamentals as I'll be shooting my first Governor's Twenty match this year with the National Guard. I will say I feel more comfortable with an M9 than I do with the Sig I shoot for work. Look at the chart posted above, at about 8 oclock.... I must say, this guy's right Yep, agreed. |
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Posted: 9/23/2015 4:57:36 PM EDT
[#29]
I have this exact problem. It's 100% mental and it's your mind fucking with you.
Dry fire only helped so much, what really helped was weekly live fire sessions. One thing I do that has helped is pointing at the backstop, not really aiming at anything, but concentrating on front sight focus and following the front sight through the recoil. I do this for 5-10 shots at the beginning of every session. You need to keep your mind occupied so it doesn't have time to think about anticipating the shot. Check out Pistol-training.com. There's some threads on this exact problem. |
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Posted: 10/25/2015 6:26:41 PM EDT
[#30]
I shoot a P226 DA/SA, it isn't the gun or anything about Sigs. If the shot breaks w/o disturbing the sight picture, you'll hit.
I agree it is either jerking the trigger and/or over-gripping with the dominant hand. Buy a DAO P229 and dry fire a lot on your own along with some live fire. Most of my dry fire and at least half of my live fire with my P226 is focused on the DA first shot. |
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Posted: 11/26/2015 9:58:02 PM EDT
[#31]
Shootin is shootin. Gun should not make that big a difference. Just work on the basics. Lots of dry fire practice (no ammo in the room), focus on front sight, follow through. Here is a link to a drill I posted earlier for use with revolvers. Drill Eliminate any flinch as you release the shot. Low left - you are flinching (anticipating recoil).
You do have a revolver don't you? |
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