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Posted: 2/21/2015 12:14:18 PM EDT
[#1]
I was always taught head, that's generally an instant stop, whereas with a pelvic shot, while they are generally incapacitated, they can still shoot until they bleed out.
just my .02 |
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Posted: 2/21/2015 12:23:46 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was always taught head, that's generally an instant stop, whereas with a pelvic shot, while they are generally incapacitated, they can still shoot until they bleed out. just my .02 Pelvis like mentioned above is also a bigger target. |
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Posted: 2/21/2015 12:41:17 PM EDT
[#3]
Pelvis ... bigger and harder to move as quickly.
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Posted: 2/21/2015 12:41:35 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pelvis like mentioned above is also a bigger target. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I was always taught head, that's generally an instant stop, whereas with a pelvic shot, while they are generally incapacitated, they can still shoot until they bleed out. just my .02 Pelvis like mentioned above is also a bigger target. Also depends on what caliber you are using. If using a rifle caliber the pelvis will essentially shatter and the perp will go down making him and stationary target. Using a pistol caliber is risky as the shot could not shatter the pelvis. A head shot is my preferred method for FTS. |
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Posted: 2/21/2015 12:44:11 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also depends on what caliber you are using. If using a rifle caliber the pelvis will essentially shatter and the perp will go down making him and stationary target. Using a pistol caliber is risky as the shot could not shatter the pelvis. A head shot is my preferred method for FTS. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I was always taught head, that's generally an instant stop, whereas with a pelvic shot, while they are generally incapacitated, they can still shoot until they bleed out. just my .02 Pelvis like mentioned above is also a bigger target. Also depends on what caliber you are using. If using a rifle caliber the pelvis will essentially shatter and the perp will go down making him and stationary target. Using a pistol caliber is risky as the shot could not shatter the pelvis. A head shot is my preferred method for FTS. If using anything anytime I'd simply just go center mass. Good shot placement, if the perp or enemy continues forward then continue pulling the trigger. |
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Posted: 2/21/2015 12:45:10 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was always taught head, that's generally an instant stop, whereas with a pelvic shot, while they are generally incapacitated, they can still shoot until they bleed out. just my .02 |
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Posted: 2/21/2015 12:46:33 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If using anything anytime I'd simply just go center mass. Good shot placement, if the perp or enemy continues forward then continue pulling the trigger. |
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Posted: 2/21/2015 12:50:24 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The whole reason behind a failure to stop drill is that the target is wearing armor and center mass hits are no good. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If using anything anytime I'd simply just go center mass. Good shot placement, if the perp or enemy continues forward then continue pulling the trigger. Correct if you have to shoot someone more than 2-3 times center mass that is a failure to stop and a head shot is called for. |
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Posted: 2/21/2015 12:53:14 PM EDT
[#9]
Chest chest head. The gun going up just feels natural. Going down chest to pelvis would feel weird. But I'm a somewhat unsophisticated shooter so ymmv.
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Posted: 2/21/2015 12:57:43 PM EDT
[#10]
Mozambique drill FTW.
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Posted: 2/21/2015 1:02:01 PM EDT
[#11]
In fact, I hope to never have to make the choice.
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Posted: 2/21/2015 1:05:30 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In fact, I hope to never have to make the choice. |
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Posted: 2/21/2015 1:07:28 PM EDT
[#13]
Should someone that hits reply instead of edit even own guns let alone contemplate the complexities of Mozambique drills?
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Posted: 2/21/2015 1:30:22 PM EDT
[#14]
Farnum teaches pelvic shots. Hitting there and moving up. Supposedly more of a natural moment on the draw. Plus, the head and upper chest comes forward, vests aren't very protective when the shots come from above.
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Posted: 2/21/2015 1:50:46 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Farnum teaches pelvic shots. Hitting there and moving up. Supposedly more of a natural moment on the draw. Plus, the head and upper chest comes forward, vests aren't very protective when the shots come from above. Ayoob, too, as I recall. |
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Posted: 2/21/2015 1:53:24 PM EDT
[#16]
Pelvis is much easier to hit, but it still hard to hit the pelvic girdle and actually stop the target
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Posted: 2/21/2015 1:55:16 PM EDT
[#17]
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Posted: 2/21/2015 2:04:09 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Farnum teaches pelvic shots. Hitting there and moving up. Supposedly more of a natural moment on the draw. Plus, the head and upper chest comes forward, vests aren't very protective when the shots come from above. But a zipper drill is outside the failure to stop context of the OP, isn't it? |
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Posted: 2/21/2015 2:07:33 PM EDT
[#19]
The problem with the head shot are heads are not stationary targets they move back and forth and bob up and down. Even inside of rooms they are often hard to hit, add to that the aimpoint to cause an instant stop is not the same from 360 degrees and in many cases you get non-fatal peripheral hits
The advantage of the pelvis is it is much easier to hit but the trade off is most rounds will just tear through flesh and not break the girdle. |
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Posted: 2/21/2015 2:27:01 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryAnd? What does that have to do with anything? Was that head moving? I can do that too and I hadn't shot in 2 years…  image by BillyDoubleU, on Flickr
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Posted: 2/21/2015 2:33:59 PM EDT
[#21]
For your consideration from the late Louis Awerbuck
 image by BillyDoubleU, on Flickr
 image by BillyDoubleU, on Flickr
 image by BillyDoubleU, on Flickr
 image by BillyDoubleU, on Flickr
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Posted: 2/21/2015 2:35:48 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The problem with the head shot are heads are not stationary targets they move back and forth and bob up and down. Even inside of rooms they are often hard to hit, add to that the aimpoint to cause an instant stop is not the same from 360 degrees and in many cases you get non-fatal peripheral hits The advantage of the pelvis is it is much easier to hit but the trade off is most rounds will just tear through flesh and not break the girdle. All this. Most fascinating learning experience for me with regards to terminal effects was when I had a suspect in an OIS. He was my "evidence" and I was privileged to stand in the OR and observe them save his life; I seized the rounds as the Doctor removed them. Guy had taken 4 shots from a Glock 22/.40 S&W. He spun as he went down, so the rounds hit him in the left side of the chest (crossing just under the diaphragm, lodging in the right chest wall), through his right thigh (through and through), left hip (impacting just under the femur hip ball, destroying it), right buttocks (ending up in his left scrotum, after passing through the hip girdle opening, with no lasting damage to surrounding tissue). The Doc just tapped his left nut, grabbed a scalpel, and sliced it open, popping the round out. Then he zippered the guy's abdomen open and went to work. Pretty surreal watching the Doc pull the guy's guts out and place them in his lap while he cleaned out the cavity and sewed up small tears in the intestines. They sewed him up; got the embedded round out of his right chest wall the next day. Taught me a great deal. Hits count, accurate/vital hits count for all. Dude took a great deal of hits, in areas that should've killed him, or at least had him bleed out, and lived. |
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Posted: 2/22/2015 4:12:57 PM EDT
[#23]
Situation dictates where you go after your initial shots (if you go to a different area of the body)
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Posted: 2/25/2015 4:14:39 AM EDT
[#24]
We've had ER workers on this very site talk about people with a bullet hole in their pelvic girdle walking themselves into the hospital. Even with a solid hit to bone, a pistol bullet isn't guaranteed to have the desired effect, not matter how bad Massad Ayoob wants it to.
So of the two, I'd say head. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 1:38:14 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We've had ER workers on this very site talk about people with a bullet hole in their pelvic girdle walking themselves into the hospital. Even with a solid hit to bone, a pistol bullet isn't guaranteed to have the desired effect, not matter how bad Massad Ayoob wants it to. So of the two, I'd say head. This. My buddy was shot in the pelvis and that didn't take him out of the fight. A handgun is also vastly inferior to a PKM. Head wins. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 9:29:30 AM EDT
[#26]
This might be a good place for this
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Posted: 3/24/2015 9:47:43 PM EDT
[#27]
The people I've spoke with who actually shot someone said they a head shot never crossed their mind - they just shot to center of mass as quickly as possible until the target was neutralized.
I think adrenaline, fear, emotion, tunnel vision and other factors dominate here. In an actual fight your body dumps a massive cocktail of drugs into your blood stream that increases your gross muscle strength and speed but significantly degrades your fine motor skills. This is why you see so many encounters where two people shoot multiple rounds inside of 5 feet and completely miss each other. Unfortunately the bad guy is also getting the same shot of adrenaline, dopamine and other stuff which increases his ability to take damage, so its important to hit multiple times to center of mass especially with a handgun caliber - ideally in the four inch radius circle right around the heart. I personally would only consider a headshot if I had no center of mass shot - due to an innocent person blocking the target or obvious body armor. Yes, I do train for headshots (3x5" index cards - out to 10 yards), but they are hard to get beyond a few yards in a real pressure situation - especially if the target is moving. Also the window for an effective shot is very small - basically the triangle between the two eyes and tip of the nose (about the size of a 3x5" index card). If you miss that area the shot is likely to bounce off the skull or only do superficial damage. Even teeth are surprisingly effective at stopping pistol bullets. As for the pelvis, I would only consider it with a shotgun or rifle, and again only if I had no other shot. Handgun rounds are just not that effective against the heavy hip and femur bones, and unless you somehow hit the femoral artery there just is not anything else there that's going to stop the target. A center of mass or even a head shot is far superior to a pelvis shot. |
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Posted: 4/14/2015 11:05:54 PM EDT
[#28]
More shots to the body or legs. Shooting high at a small moving head target just increased your chances of hitting non intended targets (ie. Bystanders )
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Posted: 4/17/2015 5:29:56 PM EDT
[#29]
I've always taught 2 to CM, one to the head.
It may seem harder to get good hits to the head, but with practice it becomes a natural progession. Besides, if the need to shoot someone other than CM arises, then it's time to shut them down for good. Pelvic shots are wounds, head shots are game enders. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 10:45:47 PM EDT
[#30]
HEAD!
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Posted: 5/6/2015 11:01:04 PM EDT
[#31]
Pelvis and torso. Taking a head shot while you are moving and the assailant is moving is difficult at best, especially considering the fact you would be shooting with and extreme adrenalin dump in a high stress situation. The pelvis is a much larger target and will stop a forward advance on most any person (obviously not guaranteed), regardless of their mental state or current condition regarding drugs or alcohol. That is, if there is a major fracture of the pelvic bone which causes it to collapse. This will provide time for you to retreat to cover if possible and assess the situation. There is only a very small region in the brain that will cause an instant stop to brain function. Either way, you shoot until the threat stops, how ever many rounds this might take.
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Posted: 5/6/2015 11:08:17 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In fact, I hope to never have to make the choice. You and me both... |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 10:07:08 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ayoob, too, as I recall. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Farnum teaches pelvic shots. Hitting there and moving up. Supposedly more of a natural moment on the draw. Plus, the head and upper chest comes forward, vests aren't very protective when the shots come from above. Ayoob, too, as I recall. Zipper drill. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 10:33:49 AM EDT
[#34]
The pelvis is a fine target but hits with a handgun may or may not do much to stop anyone. Head/central nervous system are the most likely 1 shot stops. Knowing both is important but I train 2&1, body&head.
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Posted: 5/12/2016 10:48:38 AM EDT
[#35]
Head.
If only because it generally needs to be exposed for someone to attack you. The chances the head will be your only available target is greater than the pelvis, so train to hit that size target. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 12:55:22 PM EDT
[#36]
Which ever one is readily available and easiest to hit based upon the situation and your skill. Hitting one does not end the fight as not all head shots are immediately fatal and pelvic shots don't always immobilize. Don't over think it and shoot one or both.
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Posted: 5/12/2016 1:14:31 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which ever one is readily available and easiest to hit based upon the situation and your skill. Hitting one does not end the fight as not all head shots are immediately fatal and pelvic shots don't always immobilize. Don't over think it and shoot one or both. Made me think of this:  The man accused of shooting his estranged wife and holding their son hostage from police remains jailed. Daniel Tice, 32, appeared in Akron Municipal Court Tuesday morning still showing the gunshot wound that ended an eight-hour standoff with police this month. He is charged with aggravated murder in the shooting death of his wife, Brandi Tice, 28. Daniel Tice was shot by police once in the forehead while he was holed up in the basement of his Martha Avenue home. The shot fractured his skull. Tice underwent surgery at Akron City Hospital and was taken Friday to the Summit County Jail, where he is being held in lieu of a $1 million bond set by visiting Judge Michael McNulty. |
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Posted: 5/15/2016 3:29:15 AM EDT
[#38]
Tough call, not one I ever want to make. Neither are good options to be honest, especially with handgun calibers.
Plenty of cases of people being shot in the head with no real ill effects, most rounds bounce off the skull or follow the contour of the skull around under the skin and leaves out the back. At the same time, pelvis shots aren't likely to shatter the bone unless its a little old lady with a calcium deficiency. Maybe potential for more blood loss if an artery is hit, but chances of making them immediately immobile aren't very good. Head is a smaller and much more mobile target, making it harder to hit than the pelvis. Again, tough call. |
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Posted: 5/16/2016 2:04:01 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryThe part where he showed the .40 HP stopping 1cm short of the heart, almost makes me want to carry FMJ only 
I don't think I've ever aimed at anything other than COM. The pelvic shots make sense, in that you'd want to stop the threat from advancing, but quite honestly, if he has a handgun or rifle and he drops to the ground, he's still more than capable of fighting...much more so than with say a knife. |
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Posted: 6/7/2016 7:39:12 PM EDT
[#40]
A brainstem headshot is very unlikely in my experience. Even without pressure, you still have to place the round perfectly on a 3D object to get it to hit the brain stem. I'm assuming mag capacity is an issue.
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Posted: 6/15/2016 12:54:12 PM EDT
[#41]
I subscribe to this guy's thought process:
Aaron Cowan -- Sage Dynamics HEADSHOT CHEST PELVIS For the average guy who has a CCP and spends a few weekends a year at the range, it will be hard to execute an effective shot to the head. Look at the hit ratios of targets requiring headshots at a local IDPA. With that being said, I dont think a pelvis shot does anything, especially with the handgun. I think the video states that out of 42 with pelvis wounds, only 7 required surgery. I wonder how many were ambulatory? As far as headshots, as others have said the effective target size is relatively small, but I think the movement portion is a little overblown. Lateral and vertical movement from running or ducking, sure, but I dont think a gunman will be bobbing and weaving like Ali during a gunfight. Either way, headshot for a FTS action. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 3:29:29 PM EDT
[#42]
why does it have to be one or the other? assess the situation and train for both. obviously it is going to be much harder for someone to hit a head moving than it will be a pelvis moving. a shot to the upper chest isn't a bad follow up either; the area just above where a plate would be.
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Posted: 7/21/2016 4:14:14 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Situation dictates where you go after your initial shots (if you go to a different area of the body) + 1 |
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Posted: 7/24/2016 7:43:24 AM EDT
[#44]
Thank you for posting the video, that was very informative and well presented. I wonder how many people on this thread watched it?
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Posted: 9/23/2016 10:37:21 AM EDT
[#45]
I would think the pelvic shot is really only viable for when you simply can't bring the weapon online fast enough for COM or CNS shots. The Herald square stabbing incident comes to mind where a rookie transit cop had the perp charge her at a distance of five yards. She hit the pelvic girdle with gold dots. Body armor is another possibility as I believe the Gellar event the terrorists got hit COM with rifle rounds but were put down with pistol headshots.
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Posted: 9/23/2016 12:39:40 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The people I've spoke with who actually shot someone said they a head shot never crossed their mind - they just shot to center of mass as quickly as possible until the target was neutralized. I think adrenaline, fear, emotion, tunnel vision and other factors dominate here. In an actual fight your body dumps a massive cocktail of drugs into your blood stream that increases your gross muscle strength and speed but significantly degrades your fine motor skills. This is why you see so many encounters where two people shoot multiple rounds inside of 5 feet and completely miss each other. Unfortunately the bad guy is also getting the same shot of adrenaline, dopamine and other stuff which increases his ability to take damage, so its important to hit multiple times to center of mass especially with a handgun caliber - ideally in the four inch radius circle right around the heart. I personally would only consider a headshot if I had no center of mass shot - due to an innocent person blocking the target or obvious body armor. Yes, I do train for headshots (3x5" index cards - out to 10 yards), but they are hard to get beyond a few yards in a real pressure situation - especially if the target is moving. Also the window for an effective shot is very small - basically the triangle between the two eyes and tip of the nose (about the size of a 3x5" index card). If you miss that area the shot is likely to bounce off the skull or only do superficial damage. Even teeth are surprisingly effective at stopping pistol bullets. As for the pelvis, I would only consider it with a shotgun or rifle, and again only if I had no other shot. Handgun rounds are just not that effective against the heavy hip and femur bones, and unless you somehow hit the femoral artery there just is not anything else there that's going to stop the target. A center of mass or even a head shot is far superior to a pelvis shot. The natural responses to stress can very easily get you killed in a life or death encounter. Unfortunately, predatory, psychopathic and anti-social individuals (especially criminally experienced ones) do not react to stress the same way as normal individuals. These types can very often remain cool under pressure and retain a calm and calculating mental capacity. Add to this the probability that they have the initiative, and their victims are the ones reacting, and this can easily result in a lethal outcome for their victims. |
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Posted: 9/23/2016 12:51:41 PM EDT
[#47]
I'm a pelvis guy myself. Even if not a computer reset switch it will slow them down. It's kinda hard to fight while your holding your guts in ya know.
ETA: Slows them down long enough to get the head shot in. Not gut shoot and go. I guess it can be called the South Mogadishu |
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Posted: 9/23/2016 1:14:30 PM EDT
[#48]
Brain housing group.
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Posted: 9/23/2016 1:35:39 PM EDT
[#49]
Treated a guy in Central America with multiple left femur and pelvis fractures
who walk two days cross country to get out of a hostile country. Died several weeks later in a teaching hospital in the capital. Point is he wasn't going down any time soon. Guy with somewhat shallow machete wound to face went down immediately and is probably still eating tortillas through a straw and relearning to tie his own shoes. |
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Posted: 9/25/2016 8:48:46 AM EDT
[#50]
Ummm whats the situation? A pelvis hit on an attacker armed with a handgun doesnt necessarily do much. Go head. However, a knife wielding attacker at 23 yards? Take the pelvis. its a bigger target, easier to hit and the knife isn't much of a threat from 60 plus feet away.
Situationally dependent Fro |
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