one of the problems with training is the inability to simulate the adrenaline/fear/pressure of a real gunfight, which will take away your fine motor skills ect... does anyone have ways of simulating that fear so you can see what your bodies reaction and affect on aim/accuracy are?
i was thinking one way could be to have some sort of physical negative reinforcement, eg: being shot at by a paintball gun or something similar.

it would be a neat idea to have simulated two way range, with some sort of time pressure and mechanized/automated steel targets that were setup with a paintball or airsoft gun attached, if you don't take out the target in time it starts shooting at you, or it starts shooting and you have to process that and aim and fire.
kind of like a shoot-house that shoots back.

maybe a dumb idea and you'd have to do some serious safety training beforehand and would not be for the faint of heart but otherwise how good is any training if it doesn't simulate the same conditions?

Cardio exercise and simunitions are two common methods.

Simunitions!

i would think it wouldnt be too difficult for someone in the know to make some simple program to rotate a paintball gun and actuate the trigger with variable inputs for timing, # of shots, shot location, etc.

Not effective. A hit won't be fatal.

Do burpees and then go shoot fast and accurately . Pretty much like a gunfight.

Start attending IDPA shoots...

The competition mode plus the unknown of the scenarios gets your heart racing and helps simulate a little stress....

Fixed it for you . My heart rate barely rises during an IDPA stage because they are so pedestrian... IDPA is an old man's game

This has been discussed in depth before so I'll summarize:

Competitions and exercise add some level of stress to shooting however not to the extent that fine motor skills are degraded.  The infliction of pain through Simunitions/UTM are the best non-lethal force on force options that closely represent the systematic affects of a gunfight.   Airsoft doesn't cut it, timers don't cause pain.  You can do 1000 burpees and not have the instantaneous adrenal response as you do when the first live shot goes off.

There's a lot of E-penis swinging in this thread but the truth is there is nothing that can be simulated in training that precisely replicates the possibility of your own death in a gunfight. The stress of competition in front of others can be the same no matter what the game is, IDPA or other. It depends on what you are used to.

Force on Force, be it Simunitions or Airsoft, can include the "Active Opposing Will" and a pain penalty but it needs to be designed well to not turn into playing Cowboys and Indians and a total waste of time.

For individual training, something that gets you to your maximal heart rate will be the most useful and easiest to replicate time after time at the range. The Defore Pistol test #1 is a pretty good measure. If running 25 yards and shooting 50 points on a 25 yard B-8 targets is not hard enough then drop the time or increase the running distance.  

Gringop

My airsoft range is in my extremely cold attic so I have shivering working against me there. I'll go in there in just a tshirt and pajamas with no shoes on and it's coooooold. When I'm shooting outside ill run to where I'm shooting to get my heart rate up. I really enjoy doing suicide with my shotgun, which is setting up a bevy of clays about 100 feet apart from each other, then running from one side to shoot a target, then running to the other side to shoot another target, then run back to the first side to shoot another target, repeat until no targets remain. You put up about 25 targets and you start to see where your abilities break down .

Simunitions training with people watching as an audience seems to build pressure

A week or so ago, My daughter and I went to the local Gander Mountain. They had recently installed a shooting simulator with 300 screens. Several real life type scenarios were presented on the screen and you had to defend yourself, plus shoot or don't shoot training. I have trained on the FATS systems as a law enforcement officer. It was very similar. your shot placement was shown on the screen. If you hit the bad guy, he fell. If you did not he would shoot at you. you would give commands at the screen. I felt my adrenaline go a few times.
My daughter loved it. Super training for situational awareness for the family.

Do you know what a burpee is?

Field strip your pistol, place it on the line.  Walk back 25 - 30 yards and start doing burpees.  Knock at least 20 out if you can.  Sprint 25 yards.  Assemble and shoot.

Work on 3 second breaths in, 3 second breaths out whenever possible.  Time your shots.

I can't believe no one has mentioned a dueling tree yet.  I guess that technically it's a form of competition.

No.  

When will you ever anticipate having to put your weapon back together and use it immediately in a defensive situation?  If you want to add problem solving and utilization of fine motor skills, then add something realistic such as pulling out a phone and dialing 911 or finding your car keys and getting your trauma bag.  Scenario based training requires tasks that are realistic, consistent with shooting fundamentals and principals, and focus on specific objectives or tasks.  Weapon maintenance is not a gunfighting task.

There is no way to simulate a real firefight.  The best you can do is train and train until it's muscle memory and then you don't really think about the actions when shit hits the fan, your training kicks in.  Repeat reloads while watching TV, dry fire, draw and snap off rounds (or dry fire) time and time again.  Continously do it, do, say, 100 reps of each every day while watching TV or something.  Training never stops, it's a continuous thing.

Reference:  I was in the Army for 5 1/2 years and did 2 deployments to Afghanistan.  We constantly trained and during a firefight muscle memory and a clear level head is what keeps you alive.

I've participated in a number of different shooting sports.  Many like USPSA, IDPA, 3-gun, Steel Challenge, etc. have you shooting a stage one competitor at a time.  There is a time element, so you need to push yourself to shoot quickly and accurately to place well.  While the timer adds some level of stress, it is still an individual shooting the stage.  There is no external stress input.  

Other types of competition will have multiple people shooting at the same time with a time element.  Some bowling pin matches I've shot are set up like this.  You have multiple tables, so you have 3 or more competitors shooting at the same time, and an RO with a timer to stop each individual's time when the last pin hits the ground.  Knowing you are racing the guy next to you can increase the stress input. (I like to mess with the other shooters by pulling out a subgun, or something really loud like a Desert Eagle.  ) But for me, these are not much different than the timed events I mentioned above.  In the end, I know all of the times are added up after the match, and I can tune out the other shooters and just focus on my pins.  

By far, the most "stress induced" type of match I have participated in is a man-on-man bowling pin match.  I used to go to the weekly pin shoots at Doug's Shoot'n Sports in West Valley, UT for these in the mid-'90s.  They pull two tickets to see who is matched up.  There are two tables with 5 pins each.  There is no timer.  At the start signal, you start shooting and whoever cleans their table first wins the round.  Looser gets his ticket punched.  Loose two rounds and that ticket is tossed.  They run until there is only one shooter left.  You end up knowing you have to focus on your sights and your pins, but you have the urge to look and see how the other guy is doing... which usually leads to you loosing.  

Having the pressure of a timer is nothing like the pressure of knowing you have to shoot faster than that guy next to you or you will be out.  

I have never played with simunitions, but I imagine it could increase the stress level even more.  But maybe not.  I've played with paintballs, and it wasn't the same.

Kyle Defoor incorporates a lot of physical exerurstion into shooting for this reason.

They always say train as you fight. But I believe there is no equal to when you actually get into some shit.  There's a click in the brain housing group that knows, we ain't in Kansas no more toto.  

That being said, after so many crap situations, you can tame yourself.  "Battle hardening"!   Unfortunately the only way to overcome this is to be in the shit many times.

Have someone toss a couple of artillery simulators behind you while you are shooting.  That usually works

Yeah and also a grenade sim in your sleeping bag...

Musashi said the only way to practice dueling was dueling.

Be in the shit many times, and survive.

We use physical exertion, timers, low light/visibility, moving remote targeting with structures to include the unexpected. We train in all weather-cold comes with different physical reactions than heat. Involve real life objects: vehicles, chairs/desks,cover concealment, multiple people to protect (family), possibility of multiple assailants.   Scenario based self defense situations.

 

How bout this

One issue, no matter what scenario is being utilized, is the mindset of the trainee.  If they enter it telling themselves "this is stupid, i dont want to be here, none of this is real" etc then any sort of realism will be lost.  I think force on force is pretty good with simunitions.  The less padding or extra layers the more pain..that should help a little.  If its available FATS trainers are excellent.    

btw I have also thought about your training idea but with some sort of fire cracker or something similar to simulate the sound and muzzle flash from an enemy gun.  

Airsoft ne coupe pas, minuteries ne causent pas de douleur. Vous pouvez faire burpees 1000 et ne pas avoir la réponse surrénale instantanée comme vous le faites quand le premier coup direct se éteint.



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What fear is there in 3 gun or even USPSA, IDPA, etc...getting your gun(s) dirty?  Accidentally shooting more than twice on a target???

Yup. They hurt!

In the late 80s or early 90s, I remember a training class that used an self-injecting pen shot (not sure how much epinephrine/adrenaline was in it); but it got everyone's hands shaking (I felt a definite attack of panic).  

Defoor mentioned that they could "induce" terrible anxiety (like a wave that washes over you like a cloak) by hitting people in the back or something (with rattan sticks), but he said sometimes people would change their mind when it started (and that it cost a lot to do since they had to haul tons of expensive equipment to the training).  I asked about the adrenaline-shot, but he said they didn't do that any more--something to do with health issues I'm sure.  

I was going to say this...when your name gets called to step up to the line, the adrenaline gets going quick.  I still have some first stage jitters 20+ matches in.

Look for OPFOR in your local area. Many LEO train and need a few people to shoot.

Think high grade paintballs.

Competition and classes.

Or just play a lot of Call of Duty.

Emporor scorpion on your shoulder

Competition shooting is a good start. It won't simulate an actual event, but I've noticed just how much I lose track of when I'm on the clock at IDPA. It at least provides some stress that I'm having to learn to cope with.

I remember watching a video of a Russian confidence drill where they were shooting a rifle at and shoving the guy. It was a lot more frantic and extreme than the tac tv video. Anybody remember that one or have a link?

We used something like that in basic one day when doing an assault across a field after clearing a house and alley.

Welcome wrxkyle

Big time.

Especially in the left nut if your not protecting yourself. Go ahead ask me how I know!

It's not on the sa,e level, but shooting a uspsa/idpa match will give you a stressful-situation "lite" experience....at least until you've done it a few dozen times.

Bump for you

Physical Exertion vs. Imminent Death/Fight or Flight

This is one of the biggest missing elements in most training, because it's difficult to replicate and even understand.  There are only a few people who have been shot at who are willing to teach what they think is the best possible simulation of that given the constraints.

Even fewer of them are creative.

Fewer still understand anatomy and physiology of combat stress.

We used to do some physical exercises in shooting and moving drills, and I like them a lot, but there is something totally different between opiod production from the pituitary gland, and epinephrine dump from the adrenal medullae.

Physical Exertion Hormonal Physiology

When we engage in cardiovascular work outs, the pituitary gland secretes HGH, which then stimulates the thyroid gland in your neck to secrete triiodothyronine (T3), thyroxine (T4).

The pituitary gland also secretes ACTH, which triggers the adrenal glands to secrete 3 different hormones:

* Cortisol: increases blood pressure and glucose content in bloodstream, and acts as an anti-inflammatory

* Aldesterone:  This basically sets up your body for anticipated dehydration from a rise in exercise, and alerts the kidneys to begin retaining water and sodium, while decreasing urine output.  Ever had to take a piss really bad, but then engaged in some physical activity, prolonging your urine output for up to several hours later?  Aldesterone

* Adrenalin:  This is your fight or flight drug in a nutshell.

There is a cascading effect of hormonal responses that originate with the pituitary gland when you engage in physical exertion.

Fight or Flight
Something much faster happens when you feel a life and death situation emerging, and physical exertion does not replicate it well at all in my experience.

When I have been shot at or have faced rapid, imminent death, there is no cascading precursor effect like in exercise.  There is a very rapid dump of epinephrine and norepinephrine from the adrenal glands immediately into the blood stream.

This can have the effect of taking your breath away, while simultaneously feeling a sense of exhilaration that is beyond your control, with a body that is ready to spring into action, while the mind tries to process the surroundings and relevant memories in order to compile an action or series of actions that will result in your survival.

Replicating that is much different than physical exertion, and is one of the main things I have chased for years in my courses.  Those who have attended my CCW courses know what I do. I have been looking for ways to enhance that experience to make it even more stimulating of the fight or flight response.

What we end up testing and diagnosing is the ability to stay a thinking, problem-solving person in those scenarios, versus an automaton.

Realistically the only way to do this. You have to have the fear of pain / failure to up the level of stress. Everyone with a weapon is a warrior on paper until the target shoots back I used to do force on force with my son all the time. I realized how easy it is to get shot especially in the hands

Freeze some paintballs.