 Afterwork_Ninja
I'm doing science and I'm still alive!
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2007  TX, USA
 Posts: 7685 Feedback: 100% (8) |
Posted: 2/27/2012 7:45:33 PM
[Last Edit: 2/27/2012 7:47:07 PM by Afterwork_Ninja]
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT I learned a few when I studied Kenpo and Aikido, but I'm just examining my skills and seeing what else works good. I've been reading anything I can find on the subject and watching a ton of videos for new ideas. I am going to run through a few of them with the plastic training guns and knives to see if any of them work for me full speed. I figured I would ask you guys too. If you have any video or anything interesting on the subject post it up. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/29/2012 7:16:19 PM
I study Kali Silat, which is a cousin system of Pencak Silat. There are lots of disarms both without and without the use of a weapon. Take a look.
|
|
|
|
Afterwork_Ninja
I'm doing science and I'm still alive!
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2007 TX, USA
Posts: 7697 Feedback: 100% (8) Link To This Post |
Posted: 3/1/2012 9:41:13 AM
Thanks, I'll look into it.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/5/2012 10:33:33 AM
If you haven't already, search youtube for Krav Maga. They teach a bunch of disarms.
|
|
|
|
Afterwork_Ninja
I'm doing science and I'm still alive!
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2007 TX, USA
Posts: 7728 Feedback: 100% (8) Link To This Post |
Posted: 3/5/2012 11:09:40 AM
Originally Posted By watertower:
If you haven't already, search youtube for Krav Maga. They teach a bunch of disarms. I've watched quite a few and one of these days I'll go check out the local Krav Maga joint and see if it works full speed. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/5/2012 11:51:52 AM
Originally Posted By Afterwork_Ninja:
Originally Posted By watertower:
If you haven't already, search youtube for Krav Maga. They teach a bunch of disarms. I've watched quite a few and one of these days I'll go check out the local Krav Maga joint and see if it works full speed. Some are easier to comprehend and execute than others. I've found that the basics tend to be the best and do indeed work at speed. I'd still hate to NEED to do any of them. |
|
|
|
Afterwork_Ninja
I'm doing science and I'm still alive!
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2007 TX, USA
Posts: 7729 Feedback: 100% (8) Link To This Post |
Posted: 3/5/2012 11:58:02 AM
[Last Edit: 3/5/2012 12:15:33 PM by Afterwork_Ninja]
Originally Posted By watertower:
Originally Posted By Afterwork_Ninja:
Originally Posted By watertower:
If you haven't already, search youtube for Krav Maga. They teach a bunch of disarms. I've watched quite a few and one of these days I'll go check out the local Krav Maga joint and see if it works full speed. Some are easier to comprehend and execute than others. I've found that the basics tend to be the best and do indeed work at speed. I'd still hate to NEED to do any of them. I'm a big fan of Caveman simple and one move that works for multiple situations. I also like to go in and upset peoples apple cart to see if their moves really work or not. When I was learning Aikido the instructor was a little upset that almost any of his moves could be disrupted with a jab. They worked great when his students just lunged at him with their arms outstretched, but it didn't work in the real world. While I like the mechanics of it, there is a reason there are no Aikido disarms in my toolbox. You don't see much in the UFC for that matter. ETA: After thinking about it there may be a couple of Aikido inspired techniques I use, but not many. |
|
|
Kingpin38506
Ninja
Team Member
Joined: Jul 2008 TN, USA
Posts: 8927 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post |
Posted: 3/6/2012 9:09:39 AM
Check into Hapkido for your base system. It'll blend well with the Aikido that you're familiar with, and it is much more realistic.
For disarms, it's hard to beat Tim Larkin's Target Focus Training. His philosophy is tough to argue with. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/6/2012 9:06:40 PM
[Last Edit: 3/6/2012 9:07:16 PM by DonS]
Originally Posted By Afterwork_Ninja:
[When I was learning Aikido the instructor was a little upset that almost any of his moves could be disrupted with a jab. They worked great when his students just lunged at him with their arms outstretched, but it didn't work in the real world. While I like the mechanics of it, there is a reason there are no Aikido disarms in my toolbox. You don't see much in the UFC for that matter. Aikido is derived from the Japanese sword, and would work well for that sort of committed attack. But since all Aikido training is with complient partners, it never evolved a defense from other types of attacks. It is a style of fighting where you practice the techniques you want to practice, not those that work against the attacks you are likely to face. |
|
|
|
DonKey153
Jackass
Team Member
Joined: Sep 2006 TX, USA
Posts: 3057 Feedback: 100% (9) Link To This Post |
Posted: 3/10/2012 10:43:20 PM
[Last Edit: 3/10/2012 10:45:56 PM by DonKey153]
When you find some techniques you like, try and get together with someone from another system or with no real training at all and see if you can make the technique work on them.
This is why I still go to seminars, to bounce ideas off of people with vastly different backgrounds who have no interest in seeing me succeed. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/10/2012 11:17:35 PM
Get a gas powered airsoft gun and a sadistic training partner. I bet you will get shot a lot.
|
|
|
|
Afterwork_Ninja
I'm doing science and I'm still alive!
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2007 TX, USA
Posts: 7775 Feedback: 100% (8) Link To This Post |
Posted: 3/11/2012 9:54:57 AM
Originally Posted By Kilroytheknifesnob:
Get a gas powered airsoft gun and a sadistic training partner. I bet you will get have been shot a lot. Fixed that for you. I also have ruined a few tshirts by covering them with Sharpie "cuts" working knife defenses. |
|
|
Reverend73
Member
Team Member
Joined: Jun 2001 VA, USA
Posts: 302 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 5/14/2012 11:28:10 PM
While I have never used it for real, I have done the TFT live training and am absolutely convinced it is the shit. Knife, club, gun, whatever is not the weapon, the persons brain is the weapon. Take it out by targeting whatever vulnerable piece of anatomy you prefer and don't stop until the problem is solved.
|
|
|
|
SouthpawShooter
Left hander, Right thinker
Team Member
Joined: Apr 2009 USA
Posts: 429 Feedback: 100% (3) Link To This Post |
Posted: 5/15/2012 3:16:50 AM
Originally Posted By Reverend73:
While I have never used it for real, I have done the TFT live training and am absolutely convinced it is the shit. Knife, club, gun, whatever is not the weapon, the persons brain is the weapon. Take it out by targeting whatever vulnerable piece of anatomy you prefer and don't stop until the problem is solved. Sorry bro, but I beg to differ. I studied the base art of TFT for years to brown belt. It doesn't work the way they say it does. This is not just me either. I had friends I grew up with who trained along side me who couldn't make it work either, one of them being a police officer. See my post on this- http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1321014_M_A__Expert_Banned_From_UK___He_Teaches_Extreme_and_Violent_Self_Defense_That_is_Unwelcome_Here_.html&page=2#i33773924 If you want real skills that work, as mentioned find a Kali/Silat group, especially one that trains full contact, and learn some real grappling skills, judo/bjj/greco/freestyle/sambo. |
|
|
Reverend73
Member
Team Member
Joined: Jun 2001 VA, USA
Posts: 303 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 5/15/2012 5:06:08 PM
Originally Posted By SouthpawShooter:
Originally Posted By Reverend73:
While I have never used it for real, I have done the TFT live training and am absolutely convinced it is the shit. Knife, club, gun, whatever is not the weapon, the persons brain is the weapon. Take it out by targeting whatever vulnerable piece of anatomy you prefer and don't stop until the problem is solved. Sorry bro, but I beg to differ. I studied the base art of TFT for years to brown belt. It doesn't work the way they say it does. This is not just me either. I had friends I grew up with who trained along side me who couldn't make it work either, one of them being a police officer. See my post on this- http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1321014_M_A__Expert_Banned_From_UK___He_Teaches_Extreme_and_Violent_Self_Defense_That_is_Unwelcome_Here_.html&page=2#i33773924 If you want real skills that work, as mentioned find a Kali/Silat group, especially one that trains full contact, and learn some real grappling skills, judo/bjj/greco/freestyle/sambo. I read your thoughts. I disagree for the most part. Larkins TFT is about as much mental as it is getting your targets. At least in the class I took, there was no set pattern to execute. Simply pick a target, and wreck it. Are you gonna get hit? quite possibly, but getting hit and getting injured are two entirely different things. Are you gonna miss a target, probably, but don't stop. That was one of the biggest things I took away is the mindset you need to be in. When it is "on", you must be the first to get a true injury or all bets are off. But once you get a true injury, its open season on the attacker. The sparring thing you bring up may or may not be valid. We didn't train full speed because you'd seriously injure people if you did. but going slow DOES help you perfect your targeting. Granted in real violence the speed and uncertainty will make it more difficult to perfectly hit your targets. any martial art, or combat sport are worlds different from real violence. |
|
|
|
SouthpawShooter
Left hander, Right thinker
Team Member
Joined: Apr 2009 USA
Posts: 447 Feedback: 100% (3) Link To This Post |
Posted: 5/15/2012 11:53:40 PM
Originally Posted By Reverend73:
Originally Posted By SouthpawShooter:
Originally Posted By Reverend73:
While I have never used it for real, I have done the TFT live training and am absolutely convinced it is the shit. Knife, club, gun, whatever is not the weapon, the persons brain is the weapon. Take it out by targeting whatever vulnerable piece of anatomy you prefer and don't stop until the problem is solved. Sorry bro, but I beg to differ. I studied the base art of TFT for years to brown belt. It doesn't work the way they say it does. This is not just me either. I had friends I grew up with who trained along side me who couldn't make it work either, one of them being a police officer. See my post on this- http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1321014_M_A__Expert_Banned_From_UK___He_Teaches_Extreme_and_Violent_Self_Defense_That_is_Unwelcome_Here_.html&page=2#i33773924 If you want real skills that work, as mentioned find a Kali/Silat group, especially one that trains full contact, and learn some real grappling skills, judo/bjj/greco/freestyle/sambo. I read your thoughts. I disagree for the most part. Larkins TFT is about as much mental as it is getting your targets. At least in the class I took, there was no set pattern to execute. Simply pick a target, and wreck it. Are you gonna get hit? quite possibly, but getting hit and getting injured are two entirely different things. Are you gonna miss a target, probably, but don't stop. That was one of the biggest things I took away is the mindset you need to be in. When it is "on", you must be the first to get a true injury or all bets are off. But once you get a true injury, its open season on the attacker. The sparring thing you bring up may or may not be valid. We didn't train full speed because you'd seriously injure people if you did. but going slow DOES help you perfect your targeting. Granted in real violence the speed and uncertainty will make it more difficult to perfectly hit your targets. any martial art, or combat sport are worlds different from real violence. This is going to make me sound like a dick, but I have to ask. How many times have you defended yourself unarmed, as an adult, against someone who was really trying to hurt you? I've heard this "too deadly to spar" shit over and over, and it's ALWAYS from people who have never actually done it. If you read my post, you will notice that I did give kudos to that art for some of the mindset issues. The problem with the thinking of "we'll kill and maim each other if we practice full speed" stuff, is you never build the sensitivity to make it work for real. Now, if you, or someone else have had some relevant experience, say, wrestling or playing football in college, or you worked the door at a biker bar, then fine, you got the chance to practice full speed several times on several different people. If you haven't been in a fight since jr high, and you're now an insurance adjuster, and you train in this stuff, you won't be able to pull it off. Go to your nearest BJJ or MMA school, find a guy about your size who has been there for 6-12 months, and try ANY of that shit. It won't work. I know, because I went thru it. Most of the guys I trained with went through it. My buddy from high school who is a police officer tried it (the TFT style stuff) , and it didn't work for him either. I'm not trying to be a jerk, or insult you. But you really need to rethink this. I wouldn't want to fight Larkin, because he's big, in great shape, and probably an experienced fighter. But, if you aren't big, athletic, and experienced, you won't be able to make these kinds of techniques work. Also, combat sports, when trained properly, are the best way to transition to real fighting. All this crap about "no rules" is a red herring that takes away from the real issue. You won't be able to know what you're capable of until you try it against people who don't just stand there letting you do it. I spent YEARS on this system. I went at least 3 times a week. I usually stayed for both classes, which was 4 hours a night. I practiced at home. My friends and I that I trained with, practiced together at the park on the weekends frequently. I was a true believer in it. I was told by masters and high ranking practitioners that I was good, and had talent. Still, I couldn't make it work. Remember the part where I said a MASTER fought in UFC 2? The only 2 rules were no biting, and no eye gouging. Anything else was fair game. A MASTER couldn't make it work. He was no small man, and wasn't old either. Do some googling on this, and you'll see that it has little credibility. Look up "SCARS" also. You'll see that these things are not held in high esteem by serious people in the self defense community. Don't just take my word for it. |
|
|
Reverend73
Member
Team Member
Joined: Jun 2001 VA, USA
Posts: 304 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 5/16/2012 9:43:24 AM
Originally Posted By SouthpawShooter:
Originally Posted By Reverend73:
Originally Posted By SouthpawShooter:
Originally Posted By Reverend73:
While I have never used it for real, I have done the TFT live training and am absolutely convinced it is the shit. Knife, club, gun, whatever is not the weapon, the persons brain is the weapon. Take it out by targeting whatever vulnerable piece of anatomy you prefer and don't stop until the problem is solved. Sorry bro, but I beg to differ. I studied the base art of TFT for years to brown belt. It doesn't work the way they say it does. This is not just me either. I had friends I grew up with who trained along side me who couldn't make it work either, one of them being a police officer. See my post on this- http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1321014_M_A__Expert_Banned_From_UK___He_Teaches_Extreme_and_Violent_Self_Defense_That_is_Unwelcome_Here_.html&page=2#i33773924 If you want real skills that work, as mentioned find a Kali/Silat group, especially one that trains full contact, and learn some real grappling skills, judo/bjj/greco/freestyle/sambo. I read your thoughts. I disagree for the most part. Larkins TFT is about as much mental as it is getting your targets. At least in the class I took, there was no set pattern to execute. Simply pick a target, and wreck it. Are you gonna get hit? quite possibly, but getting hit and getting injured are two entirely different things. Are you gonna miss a target, probably, but don't stop. That was one of the biggest things I took away is the mindset you need to be in. When it is "on", you must be the first to get a true injury or all bets are off. But once you get a true injury, its open season on the attacker. The sparring thing you bring up may or may not be valid. We didn't train full speed because you'd seriously injure people if you did. but going slow DOES help you perfect your targeting. Granted in real violence the speed and uncertainty will make it more difficult to perfectly hit your targets. any martial art, or combat sport are worlds different from real violence. This is going to make me sound like a dick, but I have to ask. How many times have you defended yourself unarmed, as an adult, against someone who was really trying to hurt you? I've heard this "too deadly to spar" shit over and over, and it's ALWAYS from people who have never actually done it. If you read my post, you will notice that I did give kudos to that art for some of the mindset issues. The problem with the thinking of "we'll kill and maim each other if we practice full speed" stuff, is you never build the sensitivity to make it work for real. Now, if you, or someone else have had some relevant experience, say, wrestling or playing football in college, or you worked the door at a biker bar, then fine, you got the chance to practice full speed several times on several different people. If you haven't been in a fight since jr high, and you're now an insurance adjuster, and you train in this stuff, you won't be able to pull it off. Go to your nearest BJJ or MMA school, find a guy about your size who has been there for 6-12 months, and try ANY of that shit. It won't work. I know, because I went thru it. Most of the guys I trained with went through it. My buddy from high school who is a police officer tried it (the TFT style stuff) , and it didn't work for him either. I'm not trying to be a jerk, or insult you. But you really need to rethink this. I wouldn't want to fight Larkin, because he's big, in great shape, and probably an experienced fighter. But, if you aren't big, athletic, and experienced, you won't be able to make these kinds of techniques work. Also, combat sports, when trained properly, are the best way to transition to real fighting. All this crap about "no rules" is a red herring that takes away from the real issue. You won't be able to know what you're capable of until you try it against people who don't just stand there letting you do it. I spent YEARS on this system. I went at least 3 times a week. I usually stayed for both classes, which was 4 hours a night. I practiced at home. My friends and I that I trained with, practiced together at the park on the weekends frequently. I was a true believer in it. I was told by masters and high ranking practitioners that I was good, and had talent. Still, I couldn't make it work. Remember the part where I said a MASTER fought in UFC 2? The only 2 rules were no biting, and no eye gouging. Anything else was fair game. A MASTER couldn't make it work. He was no small man, and wasn't old either. Do some googling on this, and you'll see that it has little credibility. Look up "SCARS" also. You'll see that these things are not held in high esteem by serious people in the self defense community. Don't just take my word for it. Have you ever had to fight for your life? Yes or no? I'm not talking about chest thumping bar brawls. Competition fights have little in common with real violence. Yeah people can still get hurt but you are not trying to seriously injure your opponent. I'm not saying other martial arts or other other fighting styles are a waste but if you are not training to absolutely wreck the other person even if you train full speed I think you are doing yourself a disservice. Surviving real violence is probably 75% mindset and 25% execution. The thing I most appreciated with tft is when we sparred we did it with the mindset that our goal was to wreck the other person. We didn't care how fast or strong or old or young they were.we just focused on getting our injuries. |
|
|
|
SouthpawShooter
Left hander, Right thinker
Team Member
Joined: Apr 2009 USA
Posts: 452 Feedback: 100% (3) Link To This Post |
Posted: 5/16/2012 5:30:24 PM
Originally Posted By Reverend73:
Originally Posted By SouthpawShooter:
Originally Posted By Reverend73:
Originally Posted By SouthpawShooter:
Originally Posted By Reverend73:
While I have never used it for real, I have done the TFT live training and am absolutely convinced it is the shit. Knife, club, gun, whatever is not the weapon, the persons brain is the weapon. Take it out by targeting whatever vulnerable piece of anatomy you prefer and don't stop until the problem is solved. Sorry bro, but I beg to differ. I studied the base art of TFT for years to brown belt. It doesn't work the way they say it does. This is not just me either. I had friends I grew up with who trained along side me who couldn't make it work either, one of them being a police officer. See my post on this- http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1321014_M_A__Expert_Banned_From_UK___He_Teaches_Extreme_and_Violent_Self_Defense_That_is_Unwelcome_Here_.html&page=2#i33773924 If you want real skills that work, as mentioned find a Kali/Silat group, especially one that trains full contact, and learn some real grappling skills, judo/bjj/greco/freestyle/sambo. I read your thoughts. I disagree for the most part. Larkins TFT is about as much mental as it is getting your targets. At least in the class I took, there was no set pattern to execute. Simply pick a target, and wreck it. Are you gonna get hit? quite possibly, but getting hit and getting injured are two entirely different things. Are you gonna miss a target, probably, but don't stop. That was one of the biggest things I took away is the mindset you need to be in. When it is "on", you must be the first to get a true injury or all bets are off. But once you get a true injury, its open season on the attacker. The sparring thing you bring up may or may not be valid. We didn't train full speed because you'd seriously injure people if you did. but going slow DOES help you perfect your targeting. Granted in real violence the speed and uncertainty will make it more difficult to perfectly hit your targets. any martial art, or combat sport are worlds different from real violence. This is going to make me sound like a dick, but I have to ask. How many times have you defended yourself unarmed, as an adult, against someone who was really trying to hurt you? I've heard this "too deadly to spar" shit over and over, and it's ALWAYS from people who have never actually done it. If you read my post, you will notice that I did give kudos to that art for some of the mindset issues. The problem with the thinking of "we'll kill and maim each other if we practice full speed" stuff, is you never build the sensitivity to make it work for real. Now, if you, or someone else have had some relevant experience, say, wrestling or playing football in college, or you worked the door at a biker bar, then fine, you got the chance to practice full speed several times on several different people. If you haven't been in a fight since jr high, and you're now an insurance adjuster, and you train in this stuff, you won't be able to pull it off. Go to your nearest BJJ or MMA school, find a guy about your size who has been there for 6-12 months, and try ANY of that shit. It won't work. I know, because I went thru it. Most of the guys I trained with went through it. My buddy from high school who is a police officer tried it (the TFT style stuff) , and it didn't work for him either. I'm not trying to be a jerk, or insult you. But you really need to rethink this. I wouldn't want to fight Larkin, because he's big, in great shape, and probably an experienced fighter. But, if you aren't big, athletic, and experienced, you won't be able to make these kinds of techniques work. Also, combat sports, when trained properly, are the best way to transition to real fighting. All this crap about "no rules" is a red herring that takes away from the real issue. You won't be able to know what you're capable of until you try it against people who don't just stand there letting you do it. I spent YEARS on this system. I went at least 3 times a week. I usually stayed for both classes, which was 4 hours a night. I practiced at home. My friends and I that I trained with, practiced together at the park on the weekends frequently. I was a true believer in it. I was told by masters and high ranking practitioners that I was good, and had talent. Still, I couldn't make it work. Remember the part where I said a MASTER fought in UFC 2? The only 2 rules were no biting, and no eye gouging. Anything else was fair game. A MASTER couldn't make it work. He was no small man, and wasn't old either. Do some googling on this, and you'll see that it has little credibility. Look up "SCARS" also. You'll see that these things are not held in high esteem by serious people in the self defense community. Don't just take my word for it. Have you ever had to fight for your life? Yes or no? I'm not talking about chest thumping bar brawls. Competition fights have little in common with real violence. Yeah people can still get hurt but you are not trying to seriously injure your opponent. I'm not saying other martial arts or other other fighting styles are a waste but if you are not training to absolutely wreck the other person even if you train full speed I think you are doing yourself a disservice. Surviving real violence is probably 75% mindset and 25% execution. The thing I most appreciated with tft is when we sparred we did it with the mindset that our goal was to wreck the other person. We didn't care how fast or strong or old or young they were.we just focused on getting our injuries. Yes, I have. I've had gang members try to rob me. I've had Nazi skinheads try to jump me in parking lots. I had to disarm a guy with a big piece of pipe who was going to, and I quote, "fuck me up" with it. I'm not talking about some frat guy bumping into me at a sports bar. I'm sorry dude, I'm not trying to say I'm the ultimate badass, and I'm not trying to insult you. I'm hoping you can learn from my mistake, and that maybe others who are reading this thread will see what I'm trying to say. You are just repeating stuff you heard from somebody else. I agree that mindset is extremely important. As a matter of fact, I believe it's probably the reason I beat the guys I mentioned. However, when you did TFT, you weren't sparring. You were engaging in cooperative choreography. I did this for years, and I'm telling you, it's of limited value. I think I can probably apply some of it now, due to my actual fighting experience. I know where you're coming from, because I was there. The thing is, in a vacuum, what you're saying makes sense intellectually. That's why I believed it too. The problem is, sometime the truth is counter-intuitive. I didn't want to believe it at first either, but after getting my ass kicked a few times, and seeing a high level practitioner get his ass kicked, and my friends getting their asses kicked, I was forced to look at what went wrong. I was actually really depressed over it. It felt like a betrayal that what I had learned didn't work. It was like, imagine if you died, instead of being greeted by St Peter, it was Mohammed, saying, "sorry, you chose poorly". That's how bad I felt. I'm talking complete, utter disappointment. Don't just take my word for it. Go do some research. All the top guys acknowledge the fact that some kind of sparring against resistance is necessary. You combine that along with the right mindset, and weaponry. You don't train for the purpose of competing, but you use the methodology of the competitive training. Look at the work of WW2 combatives guys like Carl Cestari, and Kelly McCann. What they do is based on their training in Judo/Jiu Jitsu and wrestling, and boxing, mixed with "dirty tricks" and the killer mindset you're talking about. Look at police/civilian defensive tactics from guys like SouthNarc, and Paul Sharp with his ISR Matrix. What they do is based on a strong grappling background mixed with realistic mindset. So, in conclusion, I've tried the "too deadly to spar" stuff, and I, nor my friends, could not make it work. I went out, learned some Judo & BJJ, and went on to become undefeated, several times, against guys out there on "teh streetz". Now it's your turn. Have you done it yet? |
|
|
Reverend73
Member
Team Member
Joined: Jun 2001 VA, USA
Posts: 306 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 5/16/2012 9:32:45 PM
Originally Posted By SouthpawShooter:
Originally Posted By Reverend73:
Originally Posted By SouthpawShooter:
Originally Posted By Reverend73:
Originally Posted By SouthpawShooter:
Originally Posted By Reverend73:
While I have never used it for real, I have done the TFT live training and am absolutely convinced it is the shit. Knife, club, gun, whatever is not the weapon, the persons brain is the weapon. Take it out by targeting whatever vulnerable piece of anatomy you prefer and don't stop until the problem is solved. Sorry bro, but I beg to differ. I studied the base art of TFT for years to brown belt. It doesn't work the way they say it does. This is not just me either. I had friends I grew up with who trained along side me who couldn't make it work either, one of them being a police officer. See my post on this- http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1321014_M_A__Expert_Banned_From_UK___He_Teaches_Extreme_and_Violent_Self_Defense_That_is_Unwelcome_Here_.html&page=2#i33773924 If you want real skills that work, as mentioned find a Kali/Silat group, especially one that trains full contact, and learn some real grappling skills, judo/bjj/greco/freestyle/sambo. I read your thoughts. I disagree for the most part. Larkins TFT is about as much mental as it is getting your targets. At least in the class I took, there was no set pattern to execute. Simply pick a target, and wreck it. Are you gonna get hit? quite possibly, but getting hit and getting injured are two entirely different things. Are you gonna miss a target, probably, but don't stop. That was one of the biggest things I took away is the mindset you need to be in. When it is "on", you must be the first to get a true injury or all bets are off. But once you get a true injury, its open season on the attacker. The sparring thing you bring up may or may not be valid. We didn't train full speed because you'd seriously injure people if you did. but going slow DOES help you perfect your targeting. Granted in real violence the speed and uncertainty will make it more difficult to perfectly hit your targets. any martial art, or combat sport are worlds different from real violence. This is going to make me sound like a dick, but I have to ask. How many times have you defended yourself unarmed, as an adult, against someone who was really trying to hurt you? I've heard this "too deadly to spar" shit over and over, and it's ALWAYS from people who have never actually done it. If you read my post, you will notice that I did give kudos to that art for some of the mindset issues. The problem with the thinking of "we'll kill and maim each other if we practice full speed" stuff, is you never build the sensitivity to make it work for real. Now, if you, or someone else have had some relevant experience, say, wrestling or playing football in college, or you worked the door at a biker bar, then fine, you got the chance to practice full speed several times on several different people. If you haven't been in a fight since jr high, and you're now an insurance adjuster, and you train in this stuff, you won't be able to pull it off. Go to your nearest BJJ or MMA school, find a guy about your size who has been there for 6-12 months, and try ANY of that shit. It won't work. I know, because I went thru it. Most of the guys I trained with went through it. My buddy from high school who is a police officer tried it (the TFT style stuff) , and it didn't work for him either. I'm not trying to be a jerk, or insult you. But you really need to rethink this. I wouldn't want to fight Larkin, because he's big, in great shape, and probably an experienced fighter. But, if you aren't big, athletic, and experienced, you won't be able to make these kinds of techniques work. Also, combat sports, when trained properly, are the best way to transition to real fighting. All this crap about "no rules" is a red herring that takes away from the real issue. You won't be able to know what you're capable of until you try it against people who don't just stand there letting you do it. I spent YEARS on this system. I went at least 3 times a week. I usually stayed for both classes, which was 4 hours a night. I practiced at home. My friends and I that I trained with, practiced together at the park on the weekends frequently. I was a true believer in it. I was told by masters and high ranking practitioners that I was good, and had talent. Still, I couldn't make it work. Remember the part where I said a MASTER fought in UFC 2? The only 2 rules were no biting, and no eye gouging. Anything else was fair game. A MASTER couldn't make it work. He was no small man, and wasn't old either. Do some googling on this, and you'll see that it has little credibility. Look up "SCARS" also. You'll see that these things are not held in high esteem by serious people in the self defense community. Don't just take my word for it. Have you ever had to fight for your life? Yes or no? I'm not talking about chest thumping bar brawls. Competition fights have little in common with real violence. Yeah people can still get hurt but you are not trying to seriously injure your opponent. I'm not saying other martial arts or other other fighting styles are a waste but if you are not training to absolutely wreck the other person even if you train full speed I think you are doing yourself a disservice. Surviving real violence is probably 75% mindset and 25% execution. The thing I most appreciated with tft is when we sparred we did it with the mindset that our goal was to wreck the other person. We didn't care how fast or strong or old or young they were.we just focused on getting our injuries. Yes, I have. I've had gang members try to rob me. I've had Nazi skinheads try to jump me in parking lots. I had to disarm a guy with a big piece of pipe who was going to, and I quote, "fuck me up" with it. I'm not talking about some frat guy bumping into me at a sports bar. I'm sorry dude, I'm not trying to say I'm the ultimate badass, and I'm not trying to insult you. I'm hoping you can learn from my mistake, and that maybe others who are reading this thread will see what I'm trying to say. You are just repeating stuff you heard from somebody else. I agree that mindset is extremely important. As a matter of fact, I believe it's probably the reason I beat the guys I mentioned. However, when you did TFT, you weren't sparring. You were engaging in cooperative choreography. I did this for years, and I'm telling you, it's of limited value. I think I can probably apply some of it now, due to my actual fighting experience. I know where you're coming from, because I was there. The thing is, in a vacuum, what you're saying makes sense intellectually. That's why I believed it too. The problem is, sometime the truth is counter-intuitive. I didn't want to believe it at first either, but after getting my ass kicked a few times, and seeing a high level practitioner get his ass kicked, and my friends getting their asses kicked, I was forced to look at what went wrong. I was actually really depressed over it. It felt like a betrayal that what I had learned didn't work. It was like, imagine if you died, instead of being greeted by St Peter, it was Mohammed, saying, "sorry, you chose poorly". That's how bad I felt. I'm talking complete, utter disappointment. Don't just take my word for it. Go do some research. All the top guys acknowledge the fact that some kind of sparring against resistance is necessary. You combine that along with the right mindset, and weaponry. You don't train for the purpose of competing, but you use the methodology of the competitive training. Look at the work of WW2 combatives guys like Carl Cestari, and Kelly McCann. What they do is based on their training in Judo/Jiu Jitsu and wrestling, and boxing, mixed with "dirty tricks" and the killer mindset you're talking about. Look at police/civilian defensive tactics from guys like SouthNarc, and Paul Sharp with his ISR Matrix. What they do is based on a strong grappling background mixed with realistic mindset. So, in conclusion, I've tried the "too deadly to spar" stuff, and I, nor my friends, could not make it work. I went out, learned some Judo & BJJ, and went on to become undefeated, several times, against guys out there on "teh streetz". Now it's your turn. Have you done it yet? I've had bad guys try to kill me on two occasions, in combat, but I fought only with rifles. I'm not going to argue with you anymore here. call me. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/12/2012 7:12:09 PM
Originally Posted By Reverend73:
Have you ever had to fight for your life? Yes or no? I'm not talking about chest thumping bar brawls. Competition fights have little in common with real violence. Yeah people can still get hurt but you are not trying to seriously injure your opponent. I'm not saying other martial arts or other other fighting styles are a waste but if you are not training to absolutely wreck the other person even if you train full speed I think you are doing yourself a disservice. Surviving real violence is probably 75% mindset and 25% execution. The thing I most appreciated with tft is when we sparred we did it with the mindset that our goal was to wreck the other person. We didn't care how fast or strong or old or young they were.we just focused on getting our injuries. I'd argue that competition fights are real violence. It is real violence with rules. Also, if you are not actually injuring your partner in your training, you are not "focused on getting our injuries" but focused on getting pretend injuries. |
|
|
SouthpawShooter
Left hander, Right thinker
Team Member
Joined: Apr 2009 USA
Posts: 838 Feedback: 100% (3) Link To This Post |
Posted: 11/13/2012 5:28:54 AM
Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By Reverend73:
Have you ever had to fight for your life? Yes or no? I'm not talking about chest thumping bar brawls. Competition fights have little in common with real violence. Yeah people can still get hurt but you are not trying to seriously injure your opponent. I'm not saying other martial arts or other other fighting styles are a waste but if you are not training to absolutely wreck the other person even if you train full speed I think you are doing yourself a disservice. Surviving real violence is probably 75% mindset and 25% execution. The thing I most appreciated with tft is when we sparred we did it with the mindset that our goal was to wreck the other person. We didn't care how fast or strong or old or young they were.we just focused on getting our injuries. I'd argue that competition fights are real violence. It is real violence with rules. Also, if you are not actually injuring your partner in your training, you are not "focused on getting our injuries" but focused on getting pretend injuries. A little late to the party with this one, huh? 
There are a contingent of guys out there who believe in the whole "MMA/BJJ/Sport based arts have rules, blah blah blah" bullshit, who don't understand that all that role playing with "deadly techniques" is just deluding yourself. It's why most "RBSD" should really be called "Really Bad Self Delusion". Seriously, 6 months of good MMA/BJJ beats 6 years of that crap. I've done both, and I'm telling you, real live sparring is magnitudes of order better than that playfighting. They all think they'll eyegouge their way to victory. Bullshit. If that were true, we'd see a lot more one eyed criminals out there. |
|
|
Afterwork_Ninja
I'm doing science and I'm still alive!
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2007 TX, USA
Posts: 8659 Feedback: 100% (8) Link To This Post |
Posted: 11/13/2012 9:54:50 AM
If you guys like books on the subject, this is a good one:
http://www.amazon.com/Krav-Maga-Weapon-Defenses-Contact/dp/1594392404 |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/13/2012 6:23:20 PM
Originally Posted By SouthpawShooter:
A little late to the party with this one, huh? Not really. Posted in this thread a long time ago, then followed a link to it yesterday and posted again.
Originally Posted By SouthpawShooter:
There are a contingent of guys out there who believe in the whole "MMA/BJJ/Sport based arts have rules, blah blah blah" bullshit, who don't understand that all that role playing with "deadly techniques" is just deluding yourself. It's why most "RBSD" should really be called "Really Bad Self Delusion". Someone on Sherdog calls it LARPing, Live Action Role Playing. I call it theory based arts. The right way to practice is to go full contact using rules. I think there is a point where the "role playing" MAs have some value, if your goal isn't BJJ or MMA competition but self defense, there is is potentially some value to the role playing stuff AFTER you have developed a solid base in a good mix of full force competition based arts. I took TMAs cerca '77 to '84, now I'm a one strip blue belt currently studying BJJ. One of the TMAs I took was Aikido, having studied both the shortcomings of Aikido training are very clear. In Aikido you train with a complient opponent. In BJJ, you train a move first with a complienet opponent (or one providing the proper resistance), then you may do specific drills with a resisting opponent, then roll . . . There is a huge leap between learning a move with a complient opponent and actually making it work with a resisting one . . . all of which I'm sure you know. |
|
|
Afterwork_Ninja
I'm doing science and I'm still alive!
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2007 TX, USA
Posts: 8660 Feedback: 100% (8) Link To This Post |
Posted: 11/13/2012 6:46:48 PM
[Last Edit: 11/13/2012 6:50:24 PM by Afterwork_Ninja]
In the months since I started this thread I have dug out my Aikido books, notes, and videos and been working on a few things with my training partners. While I still think a lot of the training is rubbish and I definitely wouldn't recommend it as a base system, I take back some of what I have said in the past about the techniques.
I've found for me at least that there is a place in my toolbox for some of the wrist locks such as Ikkyo, Nikyo, maybe Sankyo, Yonkyo, and my favorite throws Kote Gaeshi, and Shiho Nage. There are probably a couple more, but I can't think of them at the moment. I have found it works best for me to forget a lot of what I was taught in Aikido and just stick with my standard game, but if I get a wrist I just flip the switch and execute one of the above. If anyone wants to look into it, here is a brief list of terms. There are Youtube videos demonstrating most of them: http://www.robertcowham.com/aikido/aikido_techniques.html P.S. For you BJJ guys. If the folks you train with don't mind keep an eye out for wrist locks on the ground. Most people don't think about their wrists and I land them all the time. |
|
|
SouthpawShooter
Left hander, Right thinker
Team Member
Joined: Apr 2009 USA
Posts: 874 Feedback: 100% (3) Link To This Post |
Posted: 11/14/2012 5:19:50 AM
Originally Posted By Afterwork_Ninja:
In the months since I started this thread I have dug out my Aikido books, notes, and videos and been working on a few things with my training partners. While I still think a lot of the training is rubbish and I definitely wouldn't recommend it as a base system, I take back some of what I have said in the past about the techniques. I've found for me at least that there is a place in my toolbox for some of the wrist locks such as Ikkyo, Nikyo, maybe Sankyo, Yonkyo, and my favorite throws Kote Gaeshi, and Shiho Nage. There are probably a couple more, but I can't think of them at the moment. I have found it works best for me to forget a lot of what I was taught in Aikido and just stick with my standard game, but if I get a wrist I just flip the switch and execute one of the above. If anyone wants to look into it, here is a brief list of terms. There are Youtube videos demonstrating most of them: http://www.robertcowham.com/aikido/aikido_techniques.html P.S. For you BJJ guys. If the folks you train with don't mind keep an eye out for wrist locks on the ground. Most people don't think about their wrists and I land them all the time. Ninja- There is a guy named Roy Dean who is a BJJ black belt who does lots of wrist lock stuff from Aikido- he has a video on it, you should check it out. There are plenty of workable techniques in Aikido- Aikido was my first TMA back in 1984/5. You can get the occasional kote gaeshi, and the other locks can occasionally be worked in too, but the problem is the lack of live sparring. If someone were to get a decent working knowledge of a real live base art, BJJ, Judo, or even wrestling, they could then do some of the role playing "deadly techniques" in limited sparring. With the right mindset, live training, and weapons integration, you'll have a formidable arsenal. I'm on hiatus from training right now, but will be back before the new year. I will be training BJJ, along with FMA (filipino martial arts) with the Dog Brothers group I was training with previously. We have a very unique curriculum- we do FMA with sticks, knives, but we add grappling, and I add tactical training folders, such as my Emerson and Spydercos. We do grappling in a "weapons aware" environment, which I believe "keeps it honest". We don't just "pull guard", or do shit that only is good in tournaments. I concentrate on getting dominant position, then either finishing with a lock/choke, or going to a weapon. Depends on the situation. You can't shoot or stab everyone. At any rate, I'm rambling, but I think we're on the same page. Mindset. Live training. Weapons- impact, edged, projectile. Grappling. This is where it's at. Pretending you're too deadly to get on the mat, or you'll never be taken down is foolish beyond belief. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2012 7:59:35 PM
Originally Posted By SouthpawShooter:
There are plenty of workable techniques in Aikido- Aikido was my first TMA back in 1984/5. You can get the occasional kote gaeshi, and the other locks can occasionally be worked in too, but the problem is the lack of live sparring. If someone were to get a decent working knowledge of a real live base art, BJJ, Judo, or even wrestling, they could then do some of the role playing "deadly techniques" in limited sparring. With the right mindset, live training, and weapons integration, you'll have a formidable arsenal. Likely. Judo, the parent art of BJJ, came primarly from two stles of traditional Japanese JJ. The techniques are there to a large extent, it is the way they are trained that is the problem. The same is true of karate, my base TMA starting in '77. Karate came to Japan in 1922, and went to Korea as TKD sometime in the '30s, but sparring wasn't done until 1940 according to the MA history book I have. There are plenty of excellent karate kicks that can be quit effective. But they are best practiced in full contact kickboxing using a boxing style of punching, and of course need solid grappling as well––if you can't grapple, you can't fight unarmed. |
|
