I fully understand the risk of any weapon disarm and know that even if everything goes right you may still gut cut, bludgeoned, or shot.  Not to mention if you are in the highly unlikely situation where you would have to attempt a disarm you must have made multiple mistakes during the entire encounter for it to get to that point.  It's still something worth training and having in the toolbox.

I learned a few when I studied Kenpo and Aikido, but I'm just examining my skills and seeing what else works good.  I've been reading anything I can find on the subject and watching a ton of videos for new ideas.  I am going to run through a few of them with the plastic training guns and knives to see if any of them work for me full speed.

I figured I would ask you guys too.  If you have any video or anything interesting on the subject post it up.

I study Kali Silat, which is a cousin system of Pencak Silat.  There are lots of disarms both without and without the use of a weapon.  Take a look.

Thanks, I'll look into it.

If you haven't already, search youtube for Krav Maga.  They teach a bunch of disarms.

I've watched quite a few and one of these days I'll go check out the local Krav Maga joint and see if it works full speed.

Some are easier to comprehend and execute than others.  I've found that the basics tend to be the best and do indeed work at speed.  I'd still hate to NEED to do any of them.

I'm a big fan of Caveman simple and one move that works for multiple situations.  I also like to go in and upset peoples apple cart to see if their moves really work or not.

When I was learning Aikido the instructor was a little upset that almost any of his moves could be disrupted with a jab.  They worked great when his students just lunged at him with their arms outstretched, but it didn't work in the real world.  While I like the mechanics of it, there is a reason there are no Aikido disarms in my toolbox.  You don't see much in the UFC for that matter.


ETA: After thinking about it there may be a couple of Aikido inspired techniques I use, but not many.

Check into Hapkido for your base system. It'll blend well with the Aikido that you're familiar with, and it is much more realistic.

For disarms, it's hard to beat Tim Larkin's Target Focus Training.  His philosophy is tough to argue with.

Aikido is derived from the Japanese sword, and would work well for that sort of committed attack. But since all Aikido training is with complient partners, it never evolved a defense from other types of attacks. It is a style of fighting where you practice the techniques you want to practice, not those that work against the attacks you are likely to face.

When you find some techniques you like, try and get together with someone from another system or with no real training at all and see if you can make the technique work on them.

This is why I still go to seminars, to bounce ideas off of people with vastly different backgrounds who have no interest in seeing me succeed.

Get a gas powered airsoft gun and a sadistic training partner. I bet you will get shot a lot.

Fixed that for you.

I also have ruined a few tshirts by covering them with Sharpie "cuts" working knife defenses.

While I have never used it for real, I have done the TFT live training and am absolutely convinced it is the shit.  Knife, club, gun, whatever is not the weapon, the persons brain is the weapon.  Take it out by targeting whatever vulnerable piece of anatomy you prefer  and don't stop until the problem is solved.

Sorry bro, but I beg to differ.  

I studied the base art of TFT for years to brown belt. It doesn't work the way they say it does.

This is not just me either. I had friends I grew up with who trained along side me who couldn't make it work either, one of them being
a police officer.

See my post on this-

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1321014_M_A__Expert_Banned_From_UK___He_Teaches_Extreme_and_Violent_Self_Defense_That_is_Unwelcome_Here_.html&page=2#i33773924

If you want real skills that work, as mentioned find a Kali/Silat group, especially one that trains full contact, and learn some real grappling
skills, judo/bjj/greco/freestyle/sambo.

I read your thoughts.  I disagree for the most part.  Larkins TFT is about as much mental as it is getting your targets.  At least in the class I took, there was no set pattern to execute.  Simply pick a target, and wreck it.  Are you gonna get hit?  quite possibly, but getting hit and getting injured are two entirely different things.  Are you gonna miss a target, probably, but don't stop.  That was one of the biggest things I took away is the mindset you need to be in.  When it is "on", you must be the first to get a true injury or all bets are off.  But once you get a true injury, its open season on the attacker.  

The sparring thing you bring up may or may not be valid.  We didn't train full speed because you'd seriously injure people if you did.  but going slow DOES help you perfect your targeting. Granted in real violence the speed and uncertainty will make it more difficult to perfectly hit your targets.

any martial art, or combat sport are worlds different from real violence.  

This is going to make me sound like a dick, but I have to ask.

How many times have you defended yourself unarmed, as an adult, against someone who was really trying to hurt you?

I've heard this "too deadly to spar" shit over and over, and it's ALWAYS from people who have never actually done it.

If you read my post, you will notice that I did give kudos to that art for some of the mindset issues. The problem with the thinking
of "we'll kill and maim each other if we practice full speed" stuff, is you never build the sensitivity to make it work for real.

Now, if you, or someone else have had some relevant experience, say, wrestling or playing football in college, or you worked
the door at a biker bar, then fine, you got the chance to practice full speed several times on several different people.

If you haven't been in a fight since jr high, and you're now an insurance adjuster, and you train in this stuff, you won't be able
to pull it off.

Go to your nearest BJJ or MMA school, find a guy about your size who has been there for 6-12 months, and try ANY of that shit.
It won't work. I know, because I went thru it. Most of the guys I trained with went through it. My buddy from high school who is
a police officer tried it (the TFT style stuff) , and it didn't work for him either.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, or insult you. But you really need to rethink this. I wouldn't want to fight Larkin, because he's big, in
great shape, and probably an experienced fighter. But, if you aren't big, athletic, and experienced, you won't be able to make
these kinds of techniques work.

Also, combat sports, when trained properly, are the best way to transition to real fighting. All this crap about "no rules" is a red
herring that takes away from the real issue. You won't be able to know what you're capable of until you try it against people
who don't just stand there letting you do it.

I spent YEARS on this system. I went at least 3 times a week. I usually stayed for both classes, which was 4 hours a night.
I practiced at home. My friends and I that I trained with, practiced together at the park on the weekends frequently. I was
a true believer in it. I was told by masters and high ranking practitioners that I was good, and had talent. Still, I couldn't
make it work. Remember the part where I said a MASTER fought in UFC 2? The only 2 rules were no biting, and no eye
gouging. Anything else was fair game. A MASTER couldn't make it work. He was no small man, and wasn't old either.

Do some googling on this, and you'll see that it has little credibility. Look up "SCARS" also. You'll see that these things
are not held in high esteem by serious people in the self defense community. Don't just take my word for it.

Have you ever had to fight for your life? Yes or no? I'm not talking about chest thumping bar brawls. Competition fights have little in common with real violence.  Yeah people can still get hurt but you are not trying to seriously injure your opponent.

I'm not saying other martial arts or other other fighting styles are a waste but if you are not training to absolutely wreck the other person even if you train full speed I think you are doing yourself a disservice.
Surviving real violence is probably 75% mindset and 25% execution.  The thing I most appreciated with tft is when we sparred we did it with the mindset that our goal was to wreck the other person.  We didn't care how fast or strong or old or young they were.we just focused on getting our injuries.

Yes, I have. I've had gang members try to rob me. I've had Nazi skinheads try to jump me in parking lots.

I had to disarm a guy with a big piece of pipe who was going to, and I quote, "fuck me up" with it. I'm not talking about some frat guy
bumping into me at a sports bar.

I'm sorry dude, I'm not trying to say I'm the ultimate badass, and I'm not trying to insult you. I'm hoping you can learn from my mistake,
and that maybe others who are reading this thread will see what I'm trying to say.

You are just repeating stuff you heard from somebody else. I agree that mindset is extremely important. As a matter of fact, I believe
it's probably the reason I beat the guys I mentioned. However, when you did TFT, you weren't sparring. You were engaging in cooperative
choreography. I did this for years, and I'm telling you, it's of limited value. I think I can probably apply some of it now, due to my actual
fighting experience.

I know where you're coming from, because I was there. The thing is, in a vacuum, what you're saying makes sense intellectually. That's why
I believed it too. The problem is, sometime the truth is counter-intuitive. I didn't want to believe it at first either, but after getting my ass kicked
a few times, and seeing a high level practitioner get his ass kicked, and my friends getting their asses kicked, I was forced to look at what
went wrong.

I was actually really depressed over it. It felt like a betrayal that what I had learned didn't work. It was like, imagine if you died, instead of being greeted
by St Peter, it was Mohammed, saying, "sorry, you chose poorly". That's how bad I felt. I'm talking complete, utter disappointment.

Don't just take my word for it. Go do some research. All the top guys acknowledge the fact that some kind of sparring against resistance is
necessary. You combine that along with the right mindset, and weaponry. You don't train for the purpose of competing, but you use the
methodology of the competitive training. Look at the work of WW2 combatives guys like Carl Cestari, and Kelly McCann. What they do
is based on their training in Judo/Jiu Jitsu and wrestling, and boxing, mixed with "dirty tricks" and the killer mindset you're talking about.

Look at police/civilian defensive tactics from guys like SouthNarc, and Paul Sharp with his ISR Matrix. What they do is based on a strong
grappling background mixed with realistic mindset.

So, in conclusion, I've tried the "too deadly to spar" stuff, and I, nor my friends, could not make it work. I went out, learned some Judo & BJJ,
and went on to become undefeated, several times, against guys out there on "teh streetz".

Now it's your turn. Have you done it yet?

I've had bad guys try to kill me on two occasions, in combat, but I fought only with rifles.  I'm not going to argue with you anymore here.  call me.

I'd argue that competition fights are real violence. It is real violence with rules.

Also, if you are not actually injuring your partner in your training, you are not "focused on getting our injuries" but focused on getting pretend injuries.

A little late to the party with this one, huh?  

There are a contingent of guys out there who believe in the whole "MMA/BJJ/Sport based arts have rules, blah blah blah" bullshit, who
don't understand that all that role playing with "deadly techniques" is just deluding yourself. It's why most "RBSD" should really be called
"Really Bad Self Delusion".

Seriously, 6 months of good MMA/BJJ beats 6 years of that crap. I've done both, and I'm telling you, real live sparring is magnitudes of order
better than that playfighting.

They all think they'll eyegouge their way to victory. Bullshit. If that were true, we'd see a lot more one eyed criminals out there.

If you guys like books on the subject, this is a good one:

http://www.amazon.com/Krav-Maga-Weapon-Defenses-Contact/dp/1594392404

Not really. Posted in this thread a long time ago, then followed a link to it yesterday and posted again.



Someone on Sherdog calls it LARPing, Live Action Role Playing. I call it theory based arts.

The right way to practice is to go full contact using rules. I think there is a point where the "role playing" MAs have some value, if your goal isn't BJJ or MMA competition but self defense, there is is potentially some value to the role playing stuff AFTER you have developed a solid base in a good mix of  full force competition based arts.

I took TMAs cerca '77 to '84, now I'm a one strip blue belt currently studying BJJ. One of the TMAs I took was Aikido, having studied both the shortcomings of Aikido training are very clear. In Aikido you train with a complient opponent. In BJJ, you train a move first with a complienet opponent (or one providing the proper resistance), then you may do specific drills with a resisting opponent, then roll . . . There is a huge leap between learning a move with a complient opponent and actually making it work with a resisting one . . . all of which I'm sure you know.

In the months since I started this thread I have dug out my Aikido books, notes, and videos and been working on a few things with my training partners.  While I still think a lot of the training is rubbish and I definitely wouldn't recommend it as a base system, I take back some of what I have said in the past about the techniques.

I've found for me at least that there is a place in my toolbox for some of the wrist locks such as Ikkyo, Nikyo, maybe Sankyo, Yonkyo, and my favorite throws Kote Gaeshi, and Shiho Nage. There are probably a couple more, but I can't think of them at the moment. I have found it works best for me to forget a lot of what I was taught in Aikido and just stick with my standard game, but if I get a wrist I just flip the switch and execute one of the above.

If anyone wants to look into it, here is a brief list of terms.  There are Youtube videos demonstrating most of them:

http://www.robertcowham.com/aikido/aikido_techniques.html


P.S.  For you BJJ guys.  If the folks you train with don't mind keep an eye out for wrist locks on the ground.  Most people don't think about their wrists and I land them all the time.

Ninja-

There is a guy named Roy Dean who is a BJJ black belt who does lots of wrist lock stuff from Aikido- he has a video on it, you should
check it out.

There are plenty of workable techniques in Aikido- Aikido was my first TMA back in 1984/5. You can get the occasional kote gaeshi,
and the other locks can occasionally be worked in too, but the problem is the lack of live sparring.

If someone were to get a decent working knowledge of a real live base art, BJJ, Judo, or even wrestling, they could then do some
of the role playing "deadly techniques" in limited sparring.

With the right mindset, live training, and weapons integration, you'll have a formidable arsenal.

I'm on hiatus from training right now, but will be back before the new year. I will be training BJJ, along with FMA (filipino martial arts)
with the Dog Brothers group I was training with previously.

We have a very unique curriculum- we do FMA with sticks, knives, but we add grappling, and I add tactical training folders, such as
my Emerson and Spydercos. We do grappling in a "weapons aware" environment, which I believe "keeps it honest".

We don't just "pull guard", or do shit that only is good in tournaments. I concentrate on getting dominant position, then either finishing
with a lock/choke, or going to a weapon. Depends on the situation. You can't shoot or stab everyone.

At any rate, I'm rambling, but I think we're on the same page. Mindset. Live training. Weapons- impact, edged, projectile. Grappling.
This is where it's at. Pretending you're too deadly to get on the mat, or you'll never be taken down is foolish beyond belief.

Likely. Judo, the parent art of BJJ, came primarly from two stles of traditional Japanese JJ. The techniques are there to a large extent, it is the way they are trained that is the problem.

The same is true of karate, my base TMA starting in '77. Karate came to Japan in 1922, and went to Korea as TKD sometime in the '30s, but sparring wasn't done until 1940 according to the MA history book I have. There are plenty of excellent karate kicks that can be quit effective. But they are best practiced in full contact kickboxing using a boxing style of punching, and of course need solid grappling as well––if you can't grapple, you can't fight unarmed.

I have Roy Dean's Blue Belt Requirements video and will buy his Purple video when I'm ready. They are very good.

Even though it's not really a training video, this one of his is fun to watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyiIvrPW4BY

In the past year I have been trying to integrate everything I know into one complete skill set.

My Kenpo base with what I feel are effective techniques from Judo, Aikido, Boxing, Kung Fu, Muay Thai, BJJ, Krav Maga, and even a little Wrestling along with disarms and training with a handgun seem to fit the bill for me.

The real key is finding other people that are interested and training things full speed.

There is good Karate out there, it just isn't at your local strip mall.

I used to be somewhat friendly with Chuck Norris' brother, Aaron; years ago he was a business client of my father. I had a long discussion
about martial arts with him one day when I went with my father to his house for a BBQ.

He told me stories about how they used to train. Guys would frequently get broken noses, fingers, and sometimes ribs, jaws, and lose teeth.
Back then, Karate had a reputation for being bad ass, because back in those days, it was only badass dudes who didn't mind getting knocked
around doing it. Guys who were soldiers, cops, bouncers, prison guards; guys who had a need to fight in their daily lives, and who weren't
pussified homos.

You see, back in those days, Karate was for fighters. Tough guys. Now, it's babysitting for little kids, and a way for housewives to keep the fat
from accumulating on their asses. Now, it's a business. And business is getting more students and making more money; not being a pure fighting
art. Not to mention lawsuits these days.

Oh, as a side note; Chuck Norris was an early adopter of BJJ- He started training with the Machado brothers even before the UFC, because he
knew that grappling was a necessary element of fighting. Incidentally, BJJ was integrated into the Chuck Norris system and became part of the
UFAF curriculum if I'm not mistaken.

Lyoto Machida is a good example of what modern Karate should have become, instead of what it generally is, now.

Yeah, I know. It's hard to find training partners for this kind of stuff.

That's why I got involved with FMA and the Dog Bros. They are open minded when it comes to weapons, and using whatever works.

When you draw a training knife on a sparring partner in BJJ class, they usually aren't amused. Most BJJ guys have no interest in weapons,
and many actually think they're unnecessary and will even go so far as to call you a pussy for having one. Many BJJ guys aren't even
interested in self defense for that matter. Oddly enough.

Hell, self defense is why I started BJJ.

Ummm, I gotta disagree for one big reason.  The topic at hand is disarming.  Getting hit with a knife, extension weapon or gun is a whole 'nother world from I kicked his knee and he punched me in the shoulder so I kept going.  It is a little harder to keep going when your clavicle just encountered a sap, bat bullet or 8" of sharp pokey steel.

A former partner of mine suffered a GSW to his right shoulder doing a disarm.  At the time, he had extensive LE experience and a high-degree of combatives training.  Our discussions about the event caused me to re-think my disarming techniques and methodology.

I think that focusing on the take-away traps you into a defensive mindset, when you should be going offensive, controlling the BGs weapon and bringing your weapon into play immediately.  If there is interest, I would be happy to type up some AARs based on real street encounters, including the one that got my partner shot, that specifically relate to disarms.

As an aside, if you haven't been to a southnarc class, go.

ShivWorks

ShivWorks DvDs

A Shivworks course is the top of my class wish list.  There was a good thread about it here on Arfcom a while back that sold me.

I would love to hear your AARs and any impressions on those DVDs if it isn't too much trouble.


...and damn you for putting more dvds on my wishlist.  I buy training books and dvds like some women buy shoes.

I'll get on banging out some AARs, hopefully tomorrow if I don't run into some fucked-up shitfest before end of watch.

The DVDs are older, but not what I would consider to be tactically dated and definately worth watching.  There is a distinct vacuum in practical force-on-force training that isn't focused on dudes rolling around in redman suits with an aversion to blackeyes, mat-burns and a mouthful of gravel.  Mostly because the guys with the experience don't have the time to do it on the side and their agencies won't implement that knowledge into a practical CQC program because they are afraid of the workcomp claims.

Hey brother, I actually just started a podcast on topics like this. Here is one that relates directly to pistol disarms: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzMu47nd1pk

Here is one on spotting weapon cues ahead of time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGMAzu7FEJI

Hopefully you find them helpful.

+1 for Krav Maga. I've studied martial arts almost my whole life.  30 years.  Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai, BJJ, and while all are very applicable in a real life fight, Krav Maga is a no bullshit method that works.  Especially the weapon disarms  just my .02

Krav Maga and KAPAP are my recommendations...

+1 Krav Maga or Kapap.







Look up the history of Kapap (combat face to face) and Krav Maga (combat contact). Before the State of Israel came into being in 1948, the Jews developed a hand to hand self-defense system that was taught to individuals and resistance groups to protect themselves from Nazis' and other anti-semitists. It started with 33-35 basic movements borrowed from many martial art disciples. It was designed to be simple and easy to learn with consistent practice to defend yourself both in armed and unarmed situations. After the formation of the State of Israel and the formation of the IDF. Kapap slowly became to be called Krav Maga. Expanding the number of movements, but still kept true to the philosophy of being simple and easier to learn than the other more known and popular MA's. There are no katas to learn, the movements use gross motor skills and are explosive. You counter and counter attack almost simultaneously. It's a down and dirty, some call it street fighting. There are no scoring points or competitions. It was design to kill or disable the attacker depending on the situation. it is truly hand to hand combat system. Krav Maga is being taught in some military combat schools along side traditional military combatives.
My Sensai is KM certified and have trained under two well known teachers in the KM world, Michael Rupple, the only German national who has ever been invited to teach at the IDF LOTAR anti-terror school and Avi Nardia (Kapap) who has taught IDF and Israeli SFs. Check out their creds online.
I have been a student and practitioner of KM for over two years now. I have over 32 years of experience combined in the military and corrections. Believe me  when I tell you this system well serve you well. Especially in what you're looking for you!





 

Most of the traditional martial arts would have been little known outside Japan/China/Korea prior to 1945.

The disarms I learned in Craig Douglas' ECQC course were pretty damn effective. Look into that if you can, the best damn class I have taken.

I'm going on May 2nd!  I absolutely can't wait.

I'm sure I'll get smoked for this but wrestling (greco roman or freestyle) is arguably the best discipline one can get trained in, especially when it comes to disarming an opponent.  Leverage, wrist control, staying inside and in the power zone are all critical in close quarters hand to hand combat and when you throw the rule book out the window bones are broken in a hurry.  Throw in some good judgement, decisiveness and an 'at all costs' mentality and you are a formidable opponent for anyone.

The biggest factor in disarming is the gap or distance between you and the opponent/aggressor and knowing whether to close it or let them do so.

While this is just my humble opinion I would like to add that I have competed in a handful of combative sports, some far less relevant (i.e. boxing) to combat.  The taste of iron gets me all excited.

You will have a blast! Just bring some advil for afterwards.

The problem is, closing the "gap" usually makes the weapon more effective.

What you can do is basically get between your opponent and his weapon, but that's hard to do with a knife. And guns become more, not less, effective at closer range until you "jam" it.

Most clubs/bats etc can be jammed, and you don't really need specific disarms but take down/grappling skills. People expect you to fear the club, not rush into it.

If you are going to rely upon some sort of club, it is wise to have a knife waiting in the other hand for anyone who has the skill and balls to "jam" the club.

I posted this before in other threads, but back in the late '70s and early '80s we trained disarms and then sparred with fake knives, and the results were not pretty when sparring, from a disarm perspective. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. GUY. ATTEMPTING. DISARM. WAS. BUTCHERED.

My opinion is have good grappling skills, and if you find yourself in a situation calling for a disarm maybe you can make it work. Training disarms might make sense to add to such grappling skills, but for those without good grappling skills, obtain those first.

20 years shotokan karate, 10 years aikido, 3 years russian cnctema

i teach weapon retention n disarms as well as edged and blunt weapons. check out the cnctema disarms

If you are an LEO watch for police/training academy sponsored seminars. They usually have good stuff.

I agree it is a very effective tool. Although I have suckered every wrestler I have ever faced into using an easy takedown on me  and then ruining their world from my back. They just think power and dominance is the end all and don't notice me positioning my hands and legs.