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CA, USA
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Posted: 2/7/2012 2:52:49 PM EDT
Karate uses index and long finger nuckles. Boxing uses bottom three. Which is best?
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Posted: 2/7/2012 3:11:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: D233]
[#1]
Originally Posted By DonS:
Karate uses index and long finger nuckles. Boxing uses bottom three. Which is best? I use K nuckles. Actually the top two are probably better for punches for me, but then again I was taught that as a child in my Isshinryu Karate classes. |
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ID, USA
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Posted: 2/7/2012 7:07:23 PM EDT
[#2]
It depends on the angle of the punch really. A shovel hook gives little opportunity to involve the pointer finger knuckle, where a straight jab uses the middle finger knuckle.
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Posted: 2/14/2012 11:14:15 PM EDT
[#3]
Originally Posted By magnum_99:
It depends on the angle of the punch really. A shovel hook gives little opportunity to involve the pointer finger knuckle, where a straight jab uses the middle finger knuckle. This is heading in the right direction. Btw, Bruce Lee was an advocate of the middle to pinky knuckle style. |
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Posted: 2/14/2012 11:19:33 PM EDT
[#4]
go to a decent school. Lesson = don't punch.
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GA, USA
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Posted: 2/22/2012 9:32:34 PM EDT
[#5]
I am much more likely to strike with an open hand than with a fist, but I have done some hand conditioning. With a fist I would keep it loose and probably try to hit with my index and bird finger knuckles, but I wouldn't mind hitting with all my knuckles.
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Posted: 2/23/2012 9:42:11 PM EDT
[#6]
Don't boxers wear gloves?
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Posted: 2/23/2012 9:57:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Hillbilly69]
[#7]
When they're BRASS, it don't much matter.
j/k I'm partial to using the top 2 myself. |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 2/24/2012 7:39:59 AM EDT
[#8]
Originally Posted By offshorebear:
Don't boxers wear gloves? Yeah, and they are usually in the 12-14 ounce range, I believe. MMA fighters use the 4 ounce gloves and they have a rash of broken hands (at a much higher rate than boxers). I don't understand why those guys don't do hand conditioning. They must be unaware of it. |
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ON, CAN
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Posted: 3/9/2012 2:27:24 PM EDT
[#9]
I've never heard any of my instructors ever say use the three last knuckles. Our head boxing coach, Leo Correa (coached the cuban olympic team and was a world champion himself) teaches us to use our index and middle finger. So does our thai boxing coach Jim Marinow (canadian national kickboxing team coach). All of the other instructors in our club say the same thing.
That being said, if you are really fighting (ring or street, doesn't matter) you aren't thinking about what knuckles to use, guaranteed. You just fall back on muscle memory. Also, boxers compete in 10oz gloves for the most part, except the very lightest weight classes and women. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 3/16/2012 11:53:00 PM EDT
[#10]
Having fought all of my life as well as being a professional fighter and trainer of many amateur and professional champions. I train all of my fighters to use all of their knuckles. Impact spread over a greater surface prevents injuring your hands. You will not always be able to land punches this way as the previous poster pointed out angles and types of punches will make it harder to accomplish but it is generally the best way if you don't want to damage your hands.
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Posted: 3/26/2012 3:56:51 PM EDT
[#11]
in theory, index&middle are the strongest and 'best' to punch with.
In practice–– Throw a damn punch, loose until impact, then tighten. As mentioned: If you're thinking about which knuckles to use you're 1) not thinking hard enough during your fighting or 2) You have no experience actually fighting, and base everything off of books you've read and 'doing forms'. Advocation of "Hand conditioning" for fighting is a moot point ––> Throwing hands against heads at high velocity is NOT what they were made for, they were made for grabbing and swinging from trees... Besides, thousands and thousands of punches to bags and pads is all the conditioning fighters need. You think 'hand conditioning' works?––> I have personally seen 3 "kung fu" guys who did Iron palm work or some other non-sense hand conditioning. All three of these individuals broke their hand on their first MMA fight. Hand health is preserved by proper fisting (hah)... and just as important How good your trainer tapes your hands––> it provides stability and reinforcement... get a shitty or sloppy tape-job and you're increasing your chance at a pop. |
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Posted: 3/26/2012 4:14:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: RDTCU]
[#12]
Originally Posted By SideSalad:
go to a decent school. Lesson = don't punch. This. Bone to bone is painful on both ends. Closed-fist punches are best for softer things like solar-plexus and ribs and the like, but you'll bust a couple if you catch a jaw, cheekbone or teeth. I can roll the tendons off of the fronts of my knuckles when making a clenched fist from hitting so many things, it's pretty weird... |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/4/2012 5:47:35 PM EDT
[#13]
palm heel strikes > pnches
it hurts to punch someone, period. palm heels, not so much. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 4/5/2012 2:41:30 PM EDT
[#14]
Originally Posted By enforcer5369:
palm heel strikes > punches it hurts to punch someone, period. palm heels, not so much. Punches to the body and Palms to the head is the best way to go. I have broken my left hand twice from throwing straights to the head. After the second break I decided a palm strike is a better option. If you doubt the effectiveness of a palm strike watch some of Bas Ruttens old Pancrase fights. |
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Posted: 4/6/2012 2:42:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: darktide]
[#15]
yeah... because you can't snap fingers doing palm strikes, now can you?... "Palm strikes > Punches" Spoken like someone with huge amount of experience...
In training, perhaps palm strikes 'may' save your knuckles, but you're risking your fingers... Hell, in training, if you're not wearing gloves that protect your hands, WTF is wrong with you? When it matters, even on the street, I'll take a broken hand and a knocked out bad guy, than a "palmed to the face" bad guy who beats my ass anyday. Bas Rutten used open hand strikes because they were the rule, not because they're the best/preferred. They score points, but do minimal damage when compared to a fist. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/7/2012 2:31:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Genin]
[#16]
The Japanese jujutsu I took said punch with the first two knuckles, otherwise, you risk a boxers fracture to the ring and little finger bones. We were to line up the first two knuckles with the bones in your forearm. I developed really hard hands, and never got any hand injuries for over 20 years...
Open fingers = broken fingers was what I was taught. |
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Posted: 10/3/2012 12:38:38 AM EDT
[#17]
Not palm strikes. Not punches. Elbows and knees is the answer.
Doing precision strikes with palms and fists is great when you're in class or doing the billy blanks routine in your living room. when it comes to a real situation, your adrenalin is going to go from 0 to 160 immediately. Fine motor skills go out the window. If you've taken good firearms training, what do they also say about manipulating the weapon? Use gross motor skills. The reason is the same. After 9 years of kenpo training (2nd degree black belt) and Marine Corps LINE training before that, I still experienced a massive adrenaline spike when I was left with no option but to fight once. Precision strikes... Nope. Fancy kicks... Nope. Elbows and knees. Worked like a charm. Remember, even full contact sparring another martial arts student is nothing like a real situation. There are still rules associated with that and you're brain can more easily focus and regulate your body reactions because you know deep down it isn't "for real". When you're on the street and now you're facing a situation that could very easily spiral out of control and cause serious injury or death... It's a whole different ball game! |
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Posted: 10/3/2012 5:43:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: RDTCU]
[#18]
Originally Posted By Charlie251:
Not palm strikes. Not punches. Elbows and knees is the answer. Doing precision strikes with palms and fists is great when you're in class or doing the billy blanks routine in your living room. when it comes to a real situation, your adrenalin is going to go from 0 to 160 immediately. Fine motor skills go out the window. If you've taken good firearms training, what do they also say about manipulating the weapon? Use gross motor skills. The reason is the same. After 9 years of kenpo training (2nd degree black belt) and Marine Corps LINE training before that, I still experienced a massive adrenaline spike when I was left with no option but to fight once. Precision strikes... Nope. Fancy kicks... Nope. Elbows and knees. Worked like a charm. Remember, even full contact sparring another martial arts student is nothing like a real situation. There are still rules associated with that and you're brain can more easily focus and regulate your body reactions because you know deep down it isn't "for real". When you're on the street and now you're facing a situation that could very easily spiral out of control and cause serious injury or death... It's a whole different ball game! My first reaction in that situation is to kick his balls up in his throat. I didn't ask for a fight, and I'm not getting in one if I can help it. Even if you "win" you're probably going to be sore the next day. |
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Posted: 10/3/2012 11:46:14 AM EDT
[#19]
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
My first reaction in that situation is to kick his balls up in his throat. I didn't ask for a fight, and I'm not getting in one if I can help it. Even if you "win" you're probably going to be sore the next day. This is one of the worst things to count on in a physical altercation. It is also the first thing almost every female answers when I ask them what they would do at the beginning of Women's Self Defense 1 class. When your adrenaline is pumping your pain tolerance increases drastically. The testicles are not a "required" item in a fight so your brain masks pain in that area to a high degree. I've been kicked in the junk quick a few times when sparring and one time I didn't have my shock doctor (best groin protection for martial arts available in my opinion) on. I felt the force of the impact and knew I got hit but was able to complete the round (30-45 seconds or so) without too much of a problem. A few seconds after the bell rang I was lying against the wall trying not to puke in immense pain. The point being that I still had 30 to 45 seconds of near full physical ability after being kicked hard in the balls to continue fighting (possibly more if the bell didn't ring stopping the match). On the contrary, the bodies natural reaction to a nose strike is for the brain to interrupt and your tear ducts to start pumping tears out of your eyes. A single fist or elbow strike to the nose could very well end the fight due to your opponents loss of visibility and lack of will to accept more pain. As would a solid knee strike to the abdomen or, in a life threatening altercation, a foot stomp to the side of the knee. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/3/2012 12:11:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Kihn]
[#20]
As an x-ray tech, almost all of the fractures from punching with a closed fist that I saw were the outer metacarpals (4th and 5th). They even call them boxer's fractures.
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Posted: 10/4/2012 8:51:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Originally Posted By keysandgloves:
I've never heard any of my instructors ever say use the three last knuckles. Our head boxing coach, Leo Correa (coached the cuban olympic team and was a world champion himself) teaches us to use our index and middle finger. So does our thai boxing coach Jim Marinow (canadian national kickboxing team coach). All of the other instructors in our club say the same thing. That being said, if you are really fighting (ring or street, doesn't matter) you aren't thinking about what knuckles to use, guaranteed. You just fall back on muscle memory. Also, boxers compete in 10oz gloves for the most part, except the very lightest weight classes and women. Well, my OP said boxers used the last three was based upon some Sherdog posts. It seems *some* boxers do it that way. A boxing instructor in a local gym said they punch with middle and index, like I was taught in karate. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/4/2012 9:08:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: avtomatwasr-10]
[#22]
First two knuckles, but if you can avoid it, throw an elbow. Just remember, even if you thrown a proper punch your hand will be swollen afterwards (assuming you dont punch often).
I should know, I saw a movie starring Chuck Norris once. |
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Posted: 10/4/2012 9:36:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: RDTCU]
[#23]
Originally Posted By Charlie251:
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
My first reaction in that situation is to kick his balls up in his throat. I didn't ask for a fight, and I'm not getting in one if I can help it. Even if you "win" you're probably going to be sore the next day. This is one of the worst things to count on in a physical altercation. It is also the first thing almost every female answers when I ask them what they would do at the beginning of Women's Self Defense 1 class. When your adrenaline is pumping your pain tolerance increases drastically. The testicles are not a "required" item in a fight so your brain masks pain in that area to a high degree. I've been kicked in the junk quick a few times when sparring and one time I didn't have my shock doctor (best groin protection for martial arts available in my opinion) on. I felt the force of the impact and knew I got hit but was able to complete the round (30-45 seconds or so) without too much of a problem. A few seconds after the bell rang I was lying against the wall trying not to puke in immense pain. The point being that I still had 30 to 45 seconds of near full physical ability after being kicked hard in the balls to continue fighting (possibly more if the bell didn't ring stopping the match). On the contrary, the bodies natural reaction to a nose strike is for the brain to interrupt and your tear ducts to start pumping tears out of your eyes. A single fist or elbow strike to the nose could very well end the fight due to your opponents loss of visibility and lack of will to accept more pain. As would a solid knee strike to the abdomen or, in a life threatening altercation, a foot stomp to the side of the knee. You're right on the pain tolerance, I've had a cup kicked out of the jockstrap before, and just felt like my kidneys were crawling out my bellybutton. The real pain came later... I have personally employed the ball-buster a time or two to great effect when I didn't feel like letting getting into it. Even if it doesn't succeed in debilitation, it's male nature to guard the jewels if you see it coming, leaving the head wide open for an immediate second strike. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2012 9:05:10 PM EDT
[#24]
This request for feedback reminds me a bit of the, "Do you prefer boxers or briefs?" question. The weapon selected depends on the target and the degree to which you want to impair your opponent (i.e. opponent hurt, unconscious...). In my humble opinion, I find elbows and knees most effective to end a fight quickly if grappling isn't involved.
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TN, USA
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Posted: 12/22/2012 1:15:24 AM EDT
[#25]
As a Kung Fu San Soo instructor, we hit with all the knuckles; the 2 big ones or the 2 small ones. The real answer lies in knowing what targets to hit; what kind of force to use; angle of entry; angle of follow through and what kind of strike. Change any one factor of that combination and you will change the results that come from the strike.
-Sifu Ken |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 12/22/2012 6:21:38 PM EDT
[#26]
Skull and mandible vs any bare knuckles = not a good idea.... regardless of placement. Open hand and palm heal to head. Fist to kidneys, stomach and neck.
That being said, in a tight spot... I still might do it. 
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Posted: 12/22/2012 6:54:21 PM EDT
[#27]
The general rule for striking is hard to soft, soft to hard. Overall though, your best bet is steel toed footwear.
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Posted: 12/23/2012 10:54:43 PM EDT
[#28]
Krav Maga teaches the pointer and middle finger.
In the 24 years of working corrections I have seen or used open hand strikes to the face. Distracted and surprised them so much that they had been bitch slapped that they were never ready for the follow on strikes. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 6/27/2013 11:03:35 PM EDT
[#29]
Hard things get soft things. In other words the head gets open hand hacks or slaps.
Soft things get hard things. In other words the body gets closed fist to break ribs. You don't want to win the fight and get Hep C for your trouble on some methed out biker's tooth. A strong slap hack or hammer fist to the ear / jaw / temple should at least zing the guy enough to make follow on attacks more likely to land. Close and switch to elbows and knees. Them don't break all that often  .
Another good reason not to use a closed fist is that if you blast one of three attackers with a great closed fist strike to the head and then transition to Nike-Jitsu (a.k.a. running), when you get to your car, it would be hard to get your car keys out of your pocket and into the door with a broken hand... Just a thought jim |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 6/27/2013 11:05:32 PM EDT
[#30]
Hard things get soft things. In other words the head gets open hand hacks or slaps.
Soft things get hard things. In other words the body gets closed fist to break ribs. You don't want to win the fight and get Hep C for your trouble on some methed out biker's tooth. A strong slap hack or hammer fist to the ear / jaw / temple should at least zing the guy enough to make follow on attacks more likely to land. Close and switch to elbows and knees. Them don't break all that often .
Another good reason not to use a closed fist is that if you blast one of three attackers with a great closed fist strike to the head and then transition to Nike-Jitsu (a.k.a. running), when you get to your car, it would be hard to get your car keys out of your pocket and into the door with a broken hand... Just a thought jim |
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Posted: 9/12/2013 5:53:41 PM EDT
[#31]
I was always taught to use my index and middle finger knuckles. Though lately I have noticed some wear and tear on my pinking and ring finger knuckles thought that may be due to them not being as tough as the other knuckles.
NexQuietus brings up an excellent point about being able to use car keys after being in a fight. That seems like the main reason behind the push for open hand strikes. If you injure your hands you may have a harder time doing things like operating firearms and vehicles, etc. |
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Posted: 9/21/2013 12:03:05 AM EDT
[#32]
Make a fist and start dropin' some bombs
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CA, USA
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Posted: 9/26/2013 8:11:30 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AJ1018:
NexQuietus brings up an excellent point about being able to use car keys after being in a fight. That seems like the main reason behind the push for open hand strikes. If you injure your hands you may have a harder time doing things like operating firearms and vehicles, etc. Breaking bones in a hand could seriously impede grappling skills, which is very likely to be needed in short order if you are striking. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 10/20/2013 1:35:36 PM EDT
[#34]
Really depends on the situation. I advocate open palm for it's variety (cupped to the ear, base to the jaw/nose, already open for catching punches or grabbing for a take down). This is for street fighting and only if you have to get into a hand to hand street fight. Most fights end up on the ground so having solid ground game will do you an incredible amount of good. Lastly situational tact, if threatened with violence a taser, if threatened with a knife your EDC, or simply keeping a cool head or situational awareness will keep you from the majority of times when you need to throw a punch.
I say this cause I got in a fight and broke my hand, couldn't play baseball for awhile and it hurt to play guitar, wish I would've thrown the palm strike or gone for the arm triangle. I mean how many times do you see a street fight end with an arm triangle and the perp is waving that other arm trying to throw punches across his body as he slowly realizes he has been manhandled. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 11/18/2013 2:14:49 AM EDT
[#35]
I was taught to use forefinger and middle finger knuckles, fist parallel with your forearm and striking knuckles in line with your elbow. That allows the striking knuckles support through the wrist and backed up in to the forearm.
I would agree using that to strike a skull could result in injury, a jaw however is weaker a strike there would be well supported. Palm strikes can be very effective, I find hammer strikes can be devastating. A hammer strike to the temple or bridge of the nose, you're going to break something. |
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Posted: 11/18/2013 3:31:18 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Doubledose: Having fought all of my life as well as being a professional fighter and trainer of many amateur and professional champions. I train all of my fighters to use all of their knuckles. Impact spread over a greater surface prevents injuring your hands. You will not always be able to land punches this way as the previous poster pointed out angles and types of punches will make it harder to accomplish but it is generally the best way if you don't want to damage your hands. I generally use my entire fist and try to not localize it to certain knuckles. No one has ever really said only use this knuckle or your entire fist it's just how I have done it. |
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Posted: 11/18/2013 4:46:34 AM EDT
[#37]
None.
The bones of the hand are fragile. Use palm strikes. |
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Posted: 11/18/2013 8:27:16 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MCSquared:
None. The bones of the hand are fragile. Use palm strikes. Knuckles for soft targets, palm for hard targets. |
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Posted: 12/12/2013 5:15:34 PM EDT
[#39]
I was taught to line up the index and middle finger knuckles with the bones in your forearm and punch with those. I never broke my hand, and the technique worked really well for me. (Japanese Jujutsu)
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NM, USA
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Posted: 12/23/2013 5:38:28 AM EDT
[#40]
Index and middle knuckle. Hurting your hands on the street is often a result of an improperly held fist. Throw the hands to the neck (using the top two knuckles makes this easier as well) and hurting your hands is often a moot point.
To hold your fist correctly, in the beginning, point your index finger and sight along the top, adjusting your fist so that the index finger follows a straight line along the top, and along the inside of the forearm, before rolling the index finger in to form a proper fist. Do this frequently until you get used to what it feels like. This ensures that the force alignment goes down the forearm instead of through the hand, resulting in a boxer's fracture. Most people don't do this and so they break their hands. That being said, punch the neck on the street, avoid the front unless it's lethal force-warranted. Hope that helps. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/8/2014 12:12:14 PM EDT
[#41]
20 years shotokan karate ive used ist 2 knucks, but i also use the cnctema fist...every part and knuckle
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NM, USA
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Posted: 4/28/2014 9:33:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: badkarmaiii]
[#42]
Strange though it may sound...
From my training and experience, punches to hard areas are delivered "softly" more for psychological affect to gain an opening. This helps prevent hand injuries. Strikes to hard areas are delivered with harder weapons like elbows and head-butts. -Lee |
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NJ, USA
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Posted: 5/27/2014 12:09:48 AM EDT
[#43]
Open handed ear slaps, heal palm bridge of the nose both as effective as punching without injuring your knuckles.
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Posted: 7/17/2014 1:47:43 PM EDT
[#44]
I always trained on the bag with the bottom three. My only exposure to martial arts was Bruce Lee's writings.
I had the opportunity to informally train with a Phase 2 JKD instructor, i.e. got thrown around a lot in his backyard.
He emphasized empty hands and stick fighting to develop reflexes. He also emphasized that what you wanted to do was get to the head and control it. He believed the most effective tools you had to end a fight quickly were knees to the groin and abdomen, elbows and headbutts to the face and temples, and thumbs to the eyes. Much of the empty hand training he attempted to show me was to help me get in range where I could grab the opponent's head and proceed with battering them from that position. I don't know how effective those attacks are. I know he was really into Dan Inosanto and get his certification from Paul Vunak for whatever that's worth. I've had the good fortune to never find myself in a situation where I would have to fight. I'm older and out of shape now, but if I was to get in a fight today, I would do everything I could to keep from going to the ground. I would kick before I punch and would much prefer to not punch at all. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 9/6/2014 3:34:02 PM EDT
[#45]
Originally Posted By DonS:
Karate uses index and long finger nuckles. Boxing uses bottom three. Which is best? Whoever told you this is wrong. All fist strikes should be done with the largest knuckles, boxing is no different. Because gloves are worn in the ring doesn't mean you don't train and focus to strike with the most injury to them and the least injury to you. Making a good fist just prior to impact lessons the chance of breaking something. Leaving your fists clenched all the time will simply waste your energy no good reason. Conserve your energy and expend it effectively and efficiently. You will get tired, the other guy will be try to avoid getting tagged all together or at least move enough to take some of the pop from your punches. Making sure you have a good fist on contact will help reduce the chance of being injured if you land with the smaller knuckles. Nobody is good enough to always land flush, especially as the fight wears on. |
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