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 DonS 
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Joined: Feb 2001  CA, USA
 Posts: 17584 Feedback: 0% (0) |
Posted: 1/19/2012 5:16:53 PM
[Last Edit: 1/19/2012 5:17:20 PM by DonS]
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT My way of thinking now is that the sticks themselves are not good fighting sticks. My reasoning is that they are light weight which reduces the striking force, and they flex a lot further reducing the striking force. In order to hit hard with such a light stick, high speed is required and I don't think you get that much more actual speed from these sticks; the big advantage is they can redirect and change motion easier. To back this up, on one of the cable channels some time back they showed guys who sparred full contact with these sticks. It looked brutal, but they were still alive . . . I think these sticks might be useful for training as a fill in for an edged weapon, but have limited value as actual fighting sticks. |
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jakoury256
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Joined: Dec 2011 GA, USA
Posts: 370 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/19/2012 7:59:58 PM
Gonna keep it short as I can.
Kali, eskrima and other stick arts are fairly different from other martial arts in that almost all the "moves" are the same wether you are holding a stick, knife or are empty handed. The sticks themselves are pretty lightweight and individual blows hurt but don't do a lot of damage but the ones you train with are lighter and not as dense as the ones you would carry for use in the real world. The other thing is that when you look at the art completely you see that the sticks are more for stunning and upsetting the oppenent so you can work some type of lock or break. |
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Posted: 1/20/2012 2:30:28 PM
Originally Posted By jakoury256:
Gonna keep it short as I can. Kali, eskrima and other stick arts are fairly different from other martial arts in that almost all the "moves" are the same wether you are holding a stick, knife or are empty handed. The sticks themselves are pretty lightweight and individual blows hurt but don't do a lot of damage but the ones you train with are lighter and not as dense as the ones you would carry for use in the real world. The other thing is that when you look at the art completely you see that the sticks are more for stunning and upsetting the oppenent so you can work some type of lock or break. 1) Why not train with the sticks you would fight with? 2) Empty handed I'd strike like a boxer, for the most part. 3) Yeah, the sticks can be used for knife training, but I'd prefer something that better mimics the shape on a knife, most particularly the location of the edge. Oh, and besides that, if you are gonna fight with sticks, it seems to me to make sense to use sticks that can quickly end the fight, and do significant damage in a single blow. |
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DonKey153
Jackass
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Joined: Sep 2006 TX, USA
Posts: 2873 Feedback: 100% (9) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/20/2012 9:01:59 PM
I practice with kamagong sticks, spar with rattan. Sticks used in duels were commonly hardwoods.
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Posted: 1/21/2012 12:41:11 AM
Originally Posted By DonKey153:
I practice with kamagong sticks, spar with rattan. Sticks used in duels were commonly hardwoods. What he said. Rattan is used in training/sparring because if you injure your partners they will not come back to train with you again. It also did not serve warriors of the time very well to constantly be injured by getting whacked with kamagong. Many times fighting took place with hardwood sticks fashioned into the shape of a blade, called "garrote". They had false edges that were not actually sharpened. This allowed a tremendous amount of force to be directed into a very small edge for impact, as opposed to the rounded shape of a stick. However, a rounded stick will do plenty of damage. If you don't think so I'm sure you can find someone who would be happy to hit you on the hand as hard as they can with a rattan stick; I bet it will cause you to drop yours  . The first target in the Filipino martial arts is usually the hand holding the weapon, then the targets move up the arm to the body as the range decreases.
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Posted: 1/23/2012 1:15:41 PM
Originally Posted By hebrewhammerASG:
Originally Posted By DonKey153:
I practice with kamagong sticks, spar with rattan. Sticks used in duels were commonly hardwoods. What he said. Rattan is used in training/sparring because if you injure your partners they will not come back to train with you again. It also did not serve warriors of the time very well to constantly be injured by getting whacked with kamagong. Many times fighting took place with hardwood sticks fashioned into the shape of a blade, called "garrote". They had false edges that were not actually sharpened. This allowed a tremendous amount of force to be directed into a very small edge for impact, as opposed to the rounded shape of a stick. However, a rounded stick will do plenty of damage. If you don't think so I'm sure you can find someone who would be happy to hit you on the hand as hard as they can with a rattan stick; I bet it will cause you to drop yours . The first target in the Filipino martial arts is usually the hand holding the weapon, then the targets move up the arm to the body as the range decreases.
This makes sense. I have assumed that the real intent of the FMAs was using edged weapons. Really more a form of sword fighting, using sticks to placate the Spanish authorities or knives or sticks for practical reasons. I'll pass on getting hit on the hand. |
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Posted: 1/23/2012 11:46:11 PM
The art revolves heavily around the use of edged weapons, however, there are specific techniques meant to be used only with sticks. Rattan is soft and flexible, it does not break like hardwood. Instead it absorbs more of the impact and eventually frays. The stick, in properly trained hands, is a serious weapon that is just as dangerous as a blade.
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Posted: 1/24/2012 12:00:03 AM
Originally Posted By hebrewhammerASG:
The art revolves heavily around the use of edged weapons, however, there are specific techniques meant to be used only with sticks. Rattan is soft and flexible, it does not break like hardwood. Instead it absorbs more of the impact and eventually frays. The stick, in properly trained hands, is a serious weapon that is just as dangerous as a blade. Just ask Magellan.... |
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Posted: 1/24/2012 1:06:13 PM
Originally Posted By MaxxII:
Originally Posted By hebrewhammerASG:
The art revolves heavily around the use of edged weapons, however, there are specific techniques meant to be used only with sticks. Rattan is soft and flexible, it does not break like hardwood. Instead it absorbs more of the impact and eventually frays. The stick, in properly trained hands, is a serious weapon that is just as dangerous as a blade. Just ask Magellan.... He received a spear or arrow wound and was mobbed by a large group on the beach, according to the only existing account which was written by the Spanish. They also mention the natives using steel blades, there is no mention of sticks (aside from spears and arrows). The key issue for Magellan was that he was attempting a landing against a defended beach against overwelming odds. As far as the rattan sticks are concerned, sure, they can take a lot but between their light weight and flex they don't impart nearly enough damage. They might be ideal for training, but in a real fight I'd go with hardwood or a blade. |
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Posted: 1/25/2012 11:24:27 PM
My apologies regarding Magellen, I'd heard otherwise and never bothered to look up the specifics for confirmation.
I've got about 7 years of training in Pencak Silat, Kali, & escrima,so I'm not ignorant on the subject of FMA & rattan sticks. If you know you're going into a real fight, you oughta be reaching for something belt fed & preferrably chain driven...failing that go with what you've got at hand or within reach. Will steel work better than wood? Yes. Will hardwood work better than rattan? Yes Will rattan do the job if need be? Yes |
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Posted: 1/26/2012 2:03:04 PM
Originally Posted By MaxxII:
My apologies regarding Magellen, I'd heard otherwise and never bothered to look up the specifics for confirmation. I heard the claim he was killed by a stick probably back in the late 70s when I first encountered escrima. The Spanish records don't reflect this, however. Originally Posted By MaxxII:
I've got about 7 years of training in Pencak Silat, Kali, & escrima,so I'm not ignorant on the subject of FMA & rattan sticks. If you know you're going into a real fight, you oughta be reaching for something belt fed & preferrably chain driven...failing that go with what you've got at hand or within reach. Will steel work better than wood? Yes. Will hardwood work better than rattan? Yes Will rattan do the job if need be? Yes That is pretty much my point. I'd use a rattan stick it that is what I had, obviously. I just remember a guy carrying a pair of rattan sticks on a hike for protection during a camping trip in the 90s. He was getting into kali/escrima at the time, and was really amped about the sticks. I was packing a 1911 but he never found out about that. |
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Posted: 2/18/2012 7:32:17 PM
Originally Posted By MaxxII:
My apologies regarding Magellen, I'd heard otherwise and never bothered to look up the specifics for confirmation. I've got about 7 years of training in Pencak Silat, Kali, & escrima,so I'm not ignorant on the subject of FMA & rattan sticks. If you know you're going into a real fight, you oughta be reaching for something belt fed & preferrably chain driven...failing that go with what you've got at hand or within reach. Will steel work better than wood? Yes. Will hardwood work better than rattan? Yes Will rattan do the job if need be? Yes I agree. I have been training Kali Silat under a guy who learned from Greg Allen. I have used the smaller diameter, lighter sticks, and I feel like I could finish a fight well with it. I have also used the larger diameter heavier sticks, and they are slower but deliver a more stout blow, obviously. I have also used kamagong, and I would definitely like them for combat. |
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