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AL, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2011 10:52:00 PM EDT
Somehow, I trust my buds at this forum to give me a no spin/no BS opinion on this topic than on other forums.
I want to take a martial arts course to add to my workouts, get some good self defense study and challenge myself. I am in my 40's now, so a hardcore BJJ dojo does not look as attractive as when I was a young guy that used to wrestle and served in the Army. I have a respectable dojo that teaches Karate and also has a BJJ instructor teach 2 nights a week, as an add on, in between my home and work location. All other dojos/studios are gonna be a 30+ min drive away from work and a longer commute from home. My question to the group is on the form of Karate. I have watched countless demos of it/katas/etc on youtube, and frankly it seems out dated in comparison to some of the newer MMA/Krav Maga/etc things out there. It also does not have a fast learning curve/application to street value from what I have studied. What is your take on: Karate? Good form/waste of time/impractical??? I am at an impasse. I can do Karate and practice some BJJ/grappling with relative ease and cost OR I can invest more time and money to get a different system. I want to incorp some Krav Maga in but the closest licensed studio is 2+ hrs away, so DVD's/Books and sparring with a friend may be my only option on that. Thoughts?? |
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Posted: 10/19/2011 11:38:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BrowardMason]
[#1]
Any of the martial arts that rely heavily on forms are worthless. Go MMA/BJJ if there is a studio in ur AO.
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MD, USA
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Posted: 10/23/2011 3:42:23 PM EDT
[#2]
If you want to do Karate for self defense, it will be a complete waste of time. If you want something to fill your free time with, why not? I'd suggest Judo for you, old people can do it.
 I had a 9th? dan judo black belt demonstrate some grips on me once, and that 90 year-old man probably could hurt me badly...
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AR, USA
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Posted: 10/23/2011 4:27:47 PM EDT
[#3]
I have just started taking Jeet Kune Do (Ted Wong style) so far from what I have seen is about 80% boxing 5% kicking and 15% MMA grappling. So you get alot of different training in one spot if there is a place near by I would try it out. Also it would be worth the time to go to all of the dojos in your area most places offer a free class so take one and see what you like the best. Any training will be better then no training.
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AL, USA
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Posted: 10/23/2011 11:17:44 PM EDT
[#4]
THX gents. After a lot of consideration, I am gonna go the MMA/BJJ route. 2 really good dojos/facilities near by. Regardless of how I do, it will keep my in shape and also keep me as prepped as I can for defense in general.
I think this just makes sense. As I do my homework, and also look in the avail training in my AO, it is MMA vs Karate vs TaeKwonDo (which I dislike). The MMA places have MMA, BJJ/Muay thai...and one also has karate if I want it as an addition. |
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AR, USA
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Posted: 10/24/2011 9:32:03 PM EDT
[#5]
Well good luck to you. I hope you have as much fun in your class as I do in mine. I just wish I would have started taking classes years ago
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AR, USA
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Posted: 10/24/2011 9:34:22 PM EDT
[#6]
Well good luck to you. I hope you have as much fun in your class as I do in mine. I just wish I would have started taking classes years ago
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CA, USA
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Posted: 10/31/2011 6:23:33 PM EDT
[#7]
I'm 48, currently study BJJ with a blue belt.
BJJ is similar to Judo but has more focus on ground work. The Judo throws are harder on us old people. 
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OH, USA
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Posted: 1/5/2012 10:56:00 PM EDT
[#8]
I'm learning Kenpo Karate. Yeah, it's old school alright, like over 700 years old.
Kenpo teaches you to finish a fight. It's not about sparing. There's more than a few moves that would kill or cripple your opponent. It's not something to take lightly. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 7/13/2012 5:13:20 PM EDT
[#9]
Originally Posted By runningman-2001:
I'm learning Kenpo Karate. Yeah, it's old school alright, like over 700 years old. Kenpo teaches you to finish a fight. It's not about sparing. There's more than a few moves that would kill or cripple your opponent. It's not something to take lightly. I am 4th Degree Black Belt in Shorin-Ryu Karate. Another real "old school" style. It takes a long time to learn all the karate katas, but the self-defense is in the fists, not the forms. If you are not learning self-defense in karate, you are doing it wrong. With that said, I have no quarrel with people that study different arts, or train for MMA. It's all good. |
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NM, USA
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Posted: 8/9/2012 3:24:24 AM EDT
[#10]
+1 one on my Brother here. I do Combat hapkido and MMA, tradition is nice, but your looking for a combative martial art not traditional.
Originally Posted By BrowardMason:
Any of the martial arts that rely heavily on forms are worthless. Go MMA/BJJ if there is a studio in ur AO. |
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Posted: 8/27/2012 11:01:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: savoy5]
[#11]
Check out Israeli Krav Maga! pure self defense/hand to hand, no uniform, no point system, no kata's to remember.
Google Krav Maga and read the difference between KM and traditional martial arts. Don't be fooled by the Krav fitness craze that tries to mix some form of defense and aerobic workout. You want strictly self defense school/classes. You'll get a lot of cardio in the warm ups before class starts. find the closest certified Krav Maga instructor, there are several KM organizations in the US that certify their instructors. if there is a local Jewish Community center, sometimes you can find instructors there or at least find a lead. don't get pulled into the who is better than who bull crap. They all have their personal flavors but when it comes down to it Krav is Krav. a groin strike is the same groin strike whether it's a IKMF, IKFF, KMF, CKM... Ask questions such as what are their philosophy of self defense, requirements for each level/belt, is there a beginner's class, required gear to purchase. Do an online research of whatever organization they are affiliated with if you're in doubt about who they are. I've been a "student" of Krav Maga for 7 months now. I'm a retire 58 yr old LEO and wished I had known this H2H years ago. It is the most practical self defense techniques I have ever learned. Going for my level 1 in a few weeks. Hope this helps anyone out there looking for something worth the time and money to invest into when it comes down to unarmed H2H combat. |
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Posted: 8/27/2012 10:05:06 PM EDT
[#12]
Originally Posted By runningman-2001:
I'm learning Kenpo Karate. Yeah, it's old school alright, like over 700 years old. Kenpo teaches you to finish a fight. It's not about sparing. There's more than a few moves that would kill or cripple your opponent. It's not something to take lightly. 700? I think most Kenpo comes from Ed Parker and the '60s. Granted, many techniques are older. Karate came to Japan from Okinawa in 1922. TKD came from Karate in the 30s. It wasn't until 1940 that Karate included sparring according to the Asian MA history book I have. Full contact Karate dates back to the late 50s. Aikido dates to the 30s or 40s. Judo to the 1880s. Traditional Jui Jitsu may date back much longer, there are hundreds of styles. |
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Posted: 8/30/2012 3:58:18 AM EDT
[#13]
Originally Posted By rb1988:
+1 one on my Brother here. I do Combat hapkido and MMA, tradition is nice, but your looking for a combative martial art not traditional. Originally Posted By BrowardMason:
Any of the martial arts that rely heavily on forms are worthless. Go MMA/BJJ if there is a studio in ur AO. CH and MMA is a good combo, although I'm not a fan of Pelligrini. 
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/13/2012 11:13:34 PM EDT
[#14]
The Krav is probably ok. Systema is very good but uses such a diferent approach that most people can't recognise its value until they have tried it for a while, not a '10 easy lessons' type of thing. Best system I know of but not a short term thing. Forget karate and most Chinese systems. They are really teaching a sport and may not even recognise that themselves (most of them)., There can be exceptions but don't bet on it. If you can find 'F.A.S.T.' training, take those if possible, then get into Krav or Systema. The F.A.S.T. uses very diferent principles than the Systema but will get your mind ready to fight and give you something which you can use immediately.
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Posted: 10/22/2012 3:20:52 PM EDT
[#15]
We had an older gentleman train with us for a few months. His company temporally transferred him to the area. He was a Russian immigrant and after a few training sessions it was apparent that he was experienced in some form of combat art, but never spoke about his past to us. Our instructor recognized some of his techniques as Systema. He was very smooth and fluid. Because of our closeness in age he opened up a little bit and did show me a few techniques when it fit into what we were doing that session. Very eye opening and I agree it would take a while to learn that style/system. I've tried to at least incorporate some of the systema theory into my drills with limited success. He has since not been able to attend or has returned home. Our loss!
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TX, USA
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Posted: 10/22/2012 4:02:42 PM EDT
[#16]
I have done Judo, BJJ, TKD and have done some boxing. Now that I am approaching the big 60 I find I enjoy Judo the most added benifit is the Judo coach is a golden gloves trainer. Now Judo has limited value in self defense but is good for conditioning and the boxing is nice in case you have to pop somebody. JMO
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Posted: 10/23/2012 8:14:43 PM EDT
[#17]
Kinda depends on the style of Karate. If the school is teaching Kyokushin then combine that with the BJJ classes they are also offering and you have a pretty good mix that would even stand up well in local MMA matches. If it is one of th epoint sparring only styles then I would skip it or only show up on BJJ nights.
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Posted: 11/1/2012 1:38:32 PM EDT
[#18]
Originally Posted By MarkHatfield:
The Krav is probably ok. Systema is very good but uses such a diferent approach that most people can't recognise its value until they have tried it for a while, not a '10 easy lessons' type of thing. Best system I know of but not a short term thing. My view is that anything that isn't effective quickly propbably never will be. Originally Posted By MarkHatfield:
Forget karate and most Chinese systems. They are really teaching a sport and may not even recognise that themselves (most of them)., There can be exceptions but don't bet on it. Karate and Chinese systems are mostly NOT sports, at least not traditionally. For example, karate didn't use sparing until 1940, and the first full contact karate began in the late 50s early 60s. Doing Kata isn't "sport". If you notice, the "combat sports" tend to do the best in actual MMA. Full force competition is a requirement for effective fighting skills and techniques. |
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Posted: 11/10/2012 11:38:07 PM EDT
[#19]
Don't let your age stop your from BJJ. I roll with a guy that is 50 and he is close to getting his blue belt.
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Posted: 11/12/2012 2:28:26 PM EDT
[#20]
Originally Posted By RolandBozz:
Don't let your age stop your from BJJ. I roll with a guy that is 50 and he is close to getting his blue belt. I'm 49 and am a one stripe blue. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 12/2/2012 9:59:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: FNFalGuy]
[#21]
I've found that in my lifetime (45 years) that martial training and technique have lost their effectiveness in the U.S., from a broad market perspective. Unfortunately, too many dojos have instructors with limited knowledge and/or are singularly focused on belt promotion for pay as a means of generating revenue (i.e. McDojos - where students only punch air and/or do point fighting and/or produce 6-8 year old black belts). The result of such dojos are that students frequently have limited personal defense skills but have cool looking uniforms and/or trophies. It takes time and patience to find instructors who have knowledge and are focused on combative or full contact training. I think that BJJ, MMA and schools that focus on Krav Maga are excellenct considerations. I spent 13 years in Bando (martial art from Burma, combining Muay Thai and Kung Fu techniques) and am now training BJJ with my wife and 3 sons.
My wife recently took two of her girlfriends to her martial arts class since they were curious about her excitement, increasing confidence and improved fitness. Both of them were so shocked at the degree of physical contact (i.e. arm bars, throws, chokes, punches and kicks). They stated that they'd never allow their children to participate in such a class and they wouldn't be coming back either! In short the violence (even with protective gear and close oversight) horrified them! One of the two has had her children in the largest "McDojo" in our town for many years so the contrast between our training and the training that she's seen for many years couldn't have been more different. Unfortunately, I am concerned the training that our neighbor's children have received will given them limited ability to protect themselves. |
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Posted: 12/3/2012 7:02:23 PM EDT
[#22]
Originally Posted By FNFalGuy:
I've found that in my lifetime (45 years) that martial training and technique have lost their effectiveness in the U.S., from a broad market perspective. Unfortunately, too many dojos have instructors with limited knowledge and/or are singularly focused on belt promotion for pay as a means of generating revenue (i.e. McDojos - where students only punch air and/or do point fighting and/or produce 6-8 year old black belts). The result of such dojos are that students frequently have limited personal defense skills but have cool looking uniforms and/or trophies. It takes time and patience to find instructors who have knowledge and are focused on combative or full contact training. I think that BJJ, MMA and schools that focus on Krav Maga are excellenct considerations. I spent 13 years in Bando (martial art from Burma, combining Muay Thai and Kung Fu techniques) and am now training BJJ with my wife and 3 sons. . . . Traditional karate lacked sparring. Sparring wasn't done until 1940, and full contact wasn't done until around 1960. This is a problem inherent in the traditional MAs from Asia. With a few exceptions, the TMAs from Asia lack full contact sparring, but they have developed very elegant techniques. They do have an obvious appeal to anyone who wants to learn defense without getting hit or slammed in a takedown, hence their popularity. The traditional Anglo-American MAs were catch wrestling and bare nuckle boxing. Both effective, full contact, and viable in modern MMA. Both evolved (or devolved) into "safer" sports that still retain considerable effectiveness. |
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Posted: 12/5/2012 1:07:17 AM EDT
[#23]
Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By RolandBozz:
Don't let your age stop your from BJJ. I roll with a guy that is 50 and he is close to getting his blue belt. I'm 49 and am a one stripe blue. Where in CA are you? You can PM me if you don't want to broadcast it. 
As far as Karate goes, it's not like the old days, where they sparred hard, and guys really learned how to fight. It's now devolved into an artform that's more like dancing than fighting. Most strip mall dojo's are really in the fitness and daycare business. They aren't turning out fighters- most people nowadays don't want to get hurt, and the school doesn't want to get sued. Your best bet is to combine good grappling, via judo/bjj/wrestling with striking- via boxing/muay thai with weapons- FMA for sticks/blades and firearms. Honestly, most of the krav I've seen has been krap. Many of the people teaching it aren't truly qualified- they probably came from a TMA background, and took a seminar to get "certified" so they could cash in. Modified "tactical" MMA is the way to go. Do MMA type training, but with a different mindset and goal- don't do things that wouldn't work in a no rules environment- such as "pulling guard", or "turtling" when getting hit. Don't take every fight to the ground when you don't have to, but be prepared if it does go there. Also, lots of guys out there think that because they watch UFC, they know how to fight. They will try things that vaguely resemble MMA but they won't know the little things that make the difference- but, a big guy can still muscle his way through it and make the techniques somwwhat work. I was out one night at a bar, and a couple of guys next to me were talking about some MMA technique they saw on "the ultimate fighter" show, and were doing it wrong. I told one of the guys he shouldn't do what he was doing, because it would get him choked. He asked me to prove it- in a friendly way, not hostile. So, he did his little move, and I put him in a guillotine. Anyway, MMA with weapons and the proper mindset is the way to go. It's basically what MCMAP is. |
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Posted: 12/5/2012 9:22:16 PM EDT
[#24]
Originally Posted By SouthpawShooter:
As far as Karate goes, it's not like the old days, where they sparred hard, and guys really learned how to fight. It's now devolved into an artform that's more like dancing than fighting. Most strip mall dojo's are really in the fitness and daycare business. They aren't turning out fighters- most people nowadays don't want to get hurt, and the school doesn't want to get sued. I'm in San Diego. My point on Karate is that in the old days they didn't spar. Old school Karate didn't have sparring according to my source, and looking at many traditional techniques like the lunge punch supports that IMO. I took Karate cerca 1977-1984 (black belt). And at the time I cross trained in other stuff, Aikido, Judo, etc. Now I train BJJ and have a blue belt. Karate kicks have a lot of potential in MMA I think, and some of the newer MMA fighters are using it with effect, but they need to have strong grappling to go along with it, and of course it is trained as a form of kickboxing. Karate has a lot of kicks that have great potential that you don't see in MMA. |
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Posted: 12/6/2012 12:34:15 AM EDT
[#25]
Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By SouthpawShooter:
As far as Karate goes, it's not like the old days, where they sparred hard, and guys really learned how to fight. It's now devolved into an artform that's more like dancing than fighting. Most strip mall dojo's are really in the fitness and daycare business. They aren't turning out fighters- most people nowadays don't want to get hurt, and the school doesn't want to get sued. I'm in San Diego. My point on Karate is that in the old days they didn't spar. Old school Karate didn't have sparring according to my source, and looking at many traditional techniques like the lunge punch supports that IMO. I took Karate cerca 1977-1984 (black belt). And at the time I cross trained in other stuff, Aikido, Judo, etc. Now I train BJJ and have a blue belt. Karate kicks have a lot of potential in MMA I think, and some of the newer MMA fighters are using it with effect, but they need to have strong grappling to go along with it, and of course it is trained as a form of kickboxing. Karate has a lot of kicks that have great potential that you don't see in MMA. There's a lot of things that could be useful in MMA that aren't there, simply because people don't want to train those techniques to the point of effectiveness. |
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Posted: 12/6/2012 1:39:50 PM EDT
[#26]
Originally Posted By Kingpin38506:
There's a lot of things that could be useful in MMA that aren't there, simply because people don't want to train those techniques to the point of effectiveness. The progression has been grappling (mostly wrestling and BJJ) -> boxing and kickboxing -> karate You must be able to grapple in order to fight. Hence early MMA was dominated by grapplers. Then the full contact striking came in as the next most important skill--boxing and kickboxing. Now we are seeing more karate kicks in MMA. It is a natural progression. Sophisticated karate kicks are not a good way to beat a wrestler or boxer if the karate person can't grapple or box. But if he can hold his own as a grappler and kickboxer, these kicks can give an edge. I'm curious what other techniques you think could be effective. I think we are approaching diminishing returns. Many TMA techniques have little value added in a practical venue. |
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USA
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Posted: 12/6/2012 1:43:19 PM EDT
[#27]
I think eventually we will see joint lock throws and takedowns a'la clasical Jujutsu in the UFC, but it will take a while and they will only be used in conjunction with the rest of the MMA arsenal.
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Posted: 12/6/2012 5:50:52 PM EDT
[#28]
Originally Posted By Aikibiker:
I think eventually we will see joint lock throws and takedowns a'la clasical Jujutsu in the UFC, but it will take a while and they will only be used in conjunction with the rest of the MMA arsenal. Are those illegal in Judo/BJJ? |
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USA
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Posted: 12/6/2012 5:54:28 PM EDT
[#29]
Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By Aikibiker:
I think eventually we will see joint lock throws and takedowns a'la clasical Jujutsu in the UFC, but it will take a while and they will only be used in conjunction with the rest of the MMA arsenal. Are those illegal in Judo/BJJ? No, just hard to do against a resisting oponent so have mostly been dropped from competition focused training. The Gracies still teach moves like that for knife defense. I have found they work ok if used to follow up strikes. Eg. throws some jabs to get the guy to raise his hands then do your joint lock and throw. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 12/25/2012 11:31:36 AM EDT
[#30]
I tooled around a little with TKD. And some karate. It was not until I got into kick boxing that I thought any of it would work. I think that if you get with someone who does jujitsu and kick boxing combined that could work. I don't care to Tai boxing. To me it feels a bit unnatural. I am not knocking it. To me. Thats all. I like American kick boxing. It keeps folks at a distant. And if they get close you can use some of what is taught. And if you just have to go to the ground then a wrestling based style would certainly work against someones that has had NO training. One thing to think about. Alot of thugs are taking MMA. Now many instructors would kick them out. But sometimes it takes time to spot it. And even a little training is better than no training. As far as Krav Maga? Yeah it works. It certainly worked against the Nazis. And I think that is were it sprang from. But I have had trouble finding good instructors myself. About the only school that advertises here had a few young folks go through some sort of "training" camp and BAM! They are suddenly instructors. Krav Maga was the in thing a while back. Just as JKD was before that. You have to take it with a grain of salt.
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Posted: 1/29/2013 11:49:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: jukeboxx13]
[#31]
Originally Posted By BrowardMason: Any of the martial arts that rely heavily on forms are worthless. Go MMA/BJJ if there is a studio in ur AO. Lyoto Machida  Karate will tech you a lot of discipline and techniques OP while working you out at the same time.
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Posted: 1/31/2013 2:12:08 PM EDT
[#32]
Originally Posted By jukeboxx13:
Originally Posted By BrowardMason:
Any of the martial arts that rely heavily on forms are worthless. Go MMA/BJJ if there is a studio in ur AO. Lyoto Machida Karate will tech you a lot of discipline and techniques OP while working you out at the same time. There are a few karate guys who have done well in MMA, but all of them have solid grappling skills (usually BJJ and or wrestling) and usually solid boxing/kickboxing in addition to karate. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 1/31/2013 2:16:36 PM EDT
[#33]
Me and the wife have been in Krav for 6 months or so and love it. Good cardio and practical fighting techniques. Once Ive been in Krav for a while I plan on other options but to start my suggestion is Krav.
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Posted: 5/1/2013 6:47:21 PM EDT
[#34]
Originally Posted By Aikibiker:
I think eventually we will see joint lock throws and takedowns a'la clasical Jujutsu in the UFC, but it will take a while and they will only be used in conjunction with the rest of the MMA arsenal. No....we wont. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:58:28 PM EDT
[#35]
Originally Posted By Entryteam:
Originally Posted By Aikibiker:
I think eventually we will see joint lock throws and takedowns a'la clasical Jujutsu in the UFC, but it will take a while and they will only be used in conjunction with the rest of the MMA arsenal. No....we wont. Five years ago we were saying the same about fancy spining kicks from Tae Kwon Do, etc. Ten years ago we were saying that about any kick to the head. Fifteen years ago it was "We will never see anyone win in the UFC with strikes it will all be grappling". And yet you see all of those things repeatedly in the octagon today. |
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Posted: 5/6/2013 7:31:55 PM EDT
[#36]
Originally Posted By Aikibiker:
Originally Posted By Entryteam:
Originally Posted By Aikibiker:
I think eventually we will see joint lock throws and takedowns a'la clasical Jujutsu in the UFC, but it will take a while and they will only be used in conjunction with the rest of the MMA arsenal. No....we wont. Five years ago we were saying the same about fancy spining kicks from Tae Kwon Do, etc. Ten years ago we were saying that about any kick to the head. Fifteen years ago it was "We will never see anyone win in the UFC with strikes it will all be grappling". And yet you see all of those things repeatedly in the octagon today. Dude.....I have been in that ring....trust me....we wont. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/7/2013 2:02:25 AM EDT
[#37]
Why not?
I am asking because I have used joint lock take downs against resisting opponents both in training and real life. I would like to hear your reasoning why. I will say I never got them to work as pretty and nice as in the dojo and they tend to need set up work, but then again Judo throws are not as pretty in competition/real life/MMA, as they are when doing kata either. |
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Posted: 5/7/2013 11:11:21 PM EDT
[#38]
Originally Posted By Aikibiker:
Why not? I am asking because I have used joint lock take downs against resisting opponents both in training and real life. I would like to hear your reasoning why. I will say I never got them to work as pretty and nice as in the dojo and they tend to need set up work, but then again Judo throws are not as pretty in competition/real life/MMA, as they are when doing kata either. You used them against untrained assholes who may or may not have ever even been in a fight....NOT trained and prepared athletic studs ready to rip your guts out and eat them. There's a difference. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/7/2013 11:22:38 PM EDT
[#39]
Originally Posted By Entryteam:
You used them against untrained assholes who may or may not have ever even been in a fight....NOT trained and prepared athletic studs ready to rip your guts out and eat them. There's a difference. On the contrary I used them against both trained fighters in good condition (including wrestlers and BJJ practitioners) and I was also a corrections officer and had occaision to use techniques against criminals with more experience at actual violence then any professional fighter. Your arguement was used with people saying that striking, head kicks, and fancy spinning kicks and punches would never work in the octagon either. Those are now used regularly once fighters learned how to apply them against a resisting opponent in an MMA match. I am confident that joint lock take downs and fancy throws will eventually find their way into the octagon in the same manner. Someone will figure out how to do it for real outside the false constraints of the traditional dojo. |
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Posted: 5/8/2013 8:31:51 AM EDT
[#40]
Originally Posted By Aikibiker:
Originally Posted By Entryteam:
You used them against untrained assholes who may or may not have ever even been in a fight....NOT trained and prepared athletic studs ready to rip your guts out and eat them. There's a difference. On the contrary I used them against both trained fighters in good condition (including wrestlers and BJJ practitioners) and I was also a corrections officer and had occaision to use techniques against criminals with more experience at actual violence then any professional fighter. Your arguement was used with people saying that striking, head kicks, and fancy spinning kicks and punches would never work in the octagon either. Those are now used regularly once fighters learned how to apply them against a resisting opponent in an MMA match. I am confident that joint lock take downs and fancy throws will eventually find their way into the octagon in the same manner. Someone will figure out how to do it for real outside the false constraints of the traditional dojo. I'd LOVE to see you "jointlock" a wrestler who was serious about hurting you. LOVE to see that......just like I'd love to see Santa....but he doesn't exist so I never will. |
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Posted: 5/8/2013 9:25:32 AM EDT
[#41]
One of the biggest challenges in effective MA training is to keep yourself, and your training partners, safe/healthy/unhurt.
I'm in my 50's and any injury will take a LONG time to recover from. In any effective MA training you will eventually have to go full speed and also train while tired to exhaustion. This gets sloppy, and sloppy is dangerous. How many of the experienced people here would trust themselves or their training partners in this situation? For me, I want a couple years of direct experience with a training partner before taking those risks with them. Of course, the downsides to this are few will hang with the training long enough and you get used to those few people. Training can get stale. Anyone know of a SAFE way around those challenges? I train in Judo & Jujitsu, plus a self-defense curriculum that incorporates anything that works (boxing, Jujitsu, grappling, and most importantly... de-escalation methods). Others have said that any of the disciplines that rely on forms (or 'katas') are worthless for self defense. I agree. In my opinion they are good for physical conditioning, discipline, and use against untrained attackers, though are essentially worthless against most any trained attacker. |
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Posted: 5/8/2013 9:39:08 AM EDT
[#42]
Originally Posted By HBruns:
One of the biggest challenges in effective MA training is to keep yourself, and your training partners, safe/healthy/unhurt. I'm in my 50's and any injury will take a LONG time to recover from. In any effective MA training you will eventually have to go full speed and also train while tired to exhaustion. This gets sloppy, and sloppy is dangerous. How many of the experienced people here would trust themselves or their training partners in this situation? For me, I want a couple years of direct experience with a training partner before taking those risks with them. Of course, the downsides to this are few will hang with the training long enough and you get used to those few people. Training can get stale. Anyone know of a SAFE way around those challenges? I train in Judo & Jujitsu, plus a self-defense curriculum that incorporates anything that works (boxing, Jujitsu, grappling, and most importantly... de-escalation methods). Others have said that any of the disciplines that rely on forms (or 'katas') are worthless for self defense. I agree. In my opinion they are good for physical conditioning, discipline, and use against untrained attackers, though are essentially worthless against most any trained attacker. well said. |
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Posted: 5/8/2013 9:42:03 AM EDT
[#43]
Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By Aikibiker:
I think eventually we will see joint lock throws and takedowns a'la clasical Jujutsu in the UFC, but it will take a while and they will only be used in conjunction with the rest of the MMA arsenal. Are those illegal in Judo/BJJ? No, they aren't. They just don't work. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/8/2013 10:37:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Aikibiker]
[#44]
Originally Posted By Entryteam:
I'd LOVE to see you "jointlock" a wrestler who was serious about hurting you. LOVE to see that......just like I'd love to see Santa....but he doesn't exist so I never will. I did it. Hardest part was avoiding his take downs. Once I was able to get hold of an arm I just pounded his ribs with punches until he pulled his arm back to try and cover them and that gave me the opening to do a wrist lock called Kote Gaeshi from standing and take him down. He tapped before I could try to flip him over for the traditional pin. Looked sort of like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id-7vFBRvk4&list=WL6AAA275B42E722DD Except I used strikes and stayed on my feet. |
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Posted: 5/8/2013 11:03:48 AM EDT
[#45]
Originally Posted By Aikibiker:
Originally Posted By Entryteam:
I'd LOVE to see you "jointlock" a wrestler who was serious about hurting you. LOVE to see that......just like I'd love to see Santa....but he doesn't exist so I never will. I did it. Hardest part was avoiding his take downs. Once I was able to get hold of an arm I just pounded his ribs with punches until he pulled his arm back to try and cover them and that gave me the opening to do a wrist lock called Kote Gaeshi from standing and take him down. He tapped before I could try to flip him over for the traditional pin. Looked sort of like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id-7vFBRvk4&list=WL6AAA275B42E722DD Except I used strikes and stayed on my feet. I am a jiujitsu instructor...I am familiar with kote gaeshi. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/8/2013 4:14:52 PM EDT
[#46]
Think about some of the ways you could use strikes to force an opening for it. Especially if you oponent is against the cage. In my case I had tired out the guy I was fighting by stuffing his take down attempts until he was tired which slowed him down enough I could grab an arm and use dirty boxing to get my opening. It worked for me.
Would I make Kote Gaeshi a go to technique? No, but I feel it is a useful technique to have in the tool box and also that under the right conditions it and other similar joint lock take downs and fancy throws can be used in MMA competition with the proviso that you will need to set them up with standard MMA type tehniques and tactics. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 5/10/2013 7:40:12 PM EDT
[#47]
Originally Posted By Aikibiker:
On the contrary I used them against both trained fighters in good condition (including wrestlers and BJJ practitioners) and I was also a corrections officer and had occaision to use techniques against criminals with more experience at actual violence then any professional fighter. Your arguement was used with people saying that striking, head kicks, and fancy spinning kicks and punches would never work in the octagon either. Those are now used regularly once fighters learned how to apply them against a resisting opponent in an MMA match. I am confident that joint lock take downs and fancy throws will eventually find their way into the octagon in the same manner. Someone will figure out how to do it for real outside the false constraints of the traditional dojo. I'm pretty sure head kicks were used to win a match in UFC 1. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/10/2013 8:07:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Aikibiker]
[#48]
Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By Aikibiker:
On the contrary I used them against both trained fighters in good condition (including wrestlers and BJJ practitioners) and I was also a corrections officer and had occaision to use techniques against criminals with more experience at actual violence then any professional fighter. Your arguement was used with people saying that striking, head kicks, and fancy spinning kicks and punches would never work in the octagon either. Those are now used regularly once fighters learned how to apply them against a resisting opponent in an MMA match. I am confident that joint lock take downs and fancy throws will eventually find their way into the octagon in the same manner. Someone will figure out how to do it for real outside the false constraints of the traditional dojo. I'm pretty sure head kicks were used to win a match in UFC 1. Yeah, but for a good five to seven years in the 90's all the folks that were involved with MMA would tell you that there was no way any kick aimed above the waist could land successfully in a competition that allowed grappling. That didn't start changing until a couple guys from K-1 entered the UFC and figured out how to use their kicks without getting taken down. I still remember the big deal that was made when teh first major UFC fight was won with a KO from a head kick. In fact I was one of those people saying that. I must have watched the replay a dozen times trying to figure out how the hell he did it. I am pretty sure this was the fight I am thinking about, from Martialarts.about.com: Pete Williams KO’s Mark “The Hammer” Coleman with a head kick.
The Event: UFC 17: Redemption on May 15, 1998 Coming off the first loss of his career via decision to Maurice Smith, many thought that Mark “The Hammer” Coleman would destroy Lion’s Den fighter, Pete Williams out of anger alone. After all, Coleman was in many people’s eyes an insurmountable force that Smith had simply been lucky to defeat. But when Williams landed a high kick, a move that was rarely used in MMA at the time, and that was all she wrote. Perhaps the first great high kick in MMA history. This fight was back in the days when competitors could still wear shoes in the UFC since "No one is going to land a head kick anyways." Edited to clean up my post and add a quote since I had a crying baby to deal with when I first posted. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 5/20/2013 9:32:44 PM EDT
[#49]
I have UFC 1 through 20 on DVD.
When they wore shoes, they were not allowed to kick. I remember Ken Shamrock wearing shoes and getting in trouble because he decided to kick anyway . . . |
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USA
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Posted: 5/21/2013 4:35:39 AM EDT
[#50]
Originally Posted By DonS:
I have UFC 1 through 20 on DVD. When they wore shoes, they were not allowed to kick. I remember Ken Shamrock wearing shoes and getting in trouble because he decided to kick anyway . . . I think the rule was: no kicking while.your opponent had one or two knees on the ground if you were wearing shoes. In the fight I referenced above both competitors were wearing shoes, the winner landed a head kick while both fighters were standing. |
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