So without getting into too much detail... and getting side tracked...

HYPOTHETICAL I really don't need posts talking about courtesy.

- I removed and installed a thread protector on a handgun

- I was in make-ready position, so allowed to handle gun

- Gun unloaded, and slide locked back

- RO claims that at no point can a body part pass in front of a muzzle - even to install or remove a thread protector which does not require my hand to pass in front of the muzzle just that my hand is ahead of the muzzle (if the muzzle was a laser my hand would not be interrupting it)


Can someone say this is illegal? And more importantly can someone help me find that in the rules!? I've looked an looked here: http://uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2015/RifleShotgunMultigunRules.pdf but can't find anything. To the contrary...

2.1.4 Stage designs must be configured in so that firearms, when staged, are pointed down range, and positioned in such a way that no person is ever allowed or required to pass in front of the muzzle of a staged firearm.

10.5.7 [DQ IF] Allowing the muzzle to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping). This includes passing in front of the muzzle of an abandoned firearm.


Thoughts?

Sounds like he didn't want you fiddling around with your gun when you're supposed to be making ready.

Should have been ready to go.

You can't be dicking with the gun at make ready. You load and reholster. That is all you do. Well, you can play with your dot, but that is all.

Any match I have been to also would have DQed you for that. Don't take it too hard, just move on and learn.

That is correct, uspsa instant DQ.

And please don't let this put you off to shooting any kind of organized match.  They are uber- careful for our own good.    Most of us have been DQed before too.

Its not a DQ if your hand did not pass in front of the muzzle of the gun but even it you did not and it looks like you did from the ROs view your going home.  As the others have said that is not what make ready is for its load and go.  Now having said all that had I been running you and I did not think you had sweep your hand I would still have given you a STOP command until I could find out what the hell you were doing as what you talked about with out knowing before hand what your are doing would look like things are going to become unsafe.

I'll start this by tipping my hand to being a card-carrying member of NROI since 1995.  We are all competitors like everyone else.  When we put "the hat on" our goal is NEVER punitive - but always to "assist the shooter in safely navigating a course of fire."  USPSA enjoys a sterling safety record and we guard it earnestly.

First, I'm puzzled as to why you found it necessary to "remove and install a thread protector" during the Make Ready phase of a stage.  This is something that should have been dealt with in a Safe Area if there was an equipment issue either before the match began or before you walked on to shoot the stage.  If necessary you could have been moved down in the shooting order to allow you to go to a Safe Area to tend to these manipulations and then return to your squad on the stage.

As for 10.5.7 - the course of fire begins at "Make Ready" (8.3.1 and 8.3.1.1) and ends after "Range is Clear" (8.3.10).  From the RO's perspective behind you on your strong-hand side it is nearly impossible to tell if you sweep yourself or not.  There is never any mention about the condition of the firearm (loaded or unloaded) during different phases of a course of fire, consequently "Gun unloaded, and slide locked back" is irrelevant to the discussion for the purposes of the rule.  You simply should not get any part of yourself out past the business end of your handgun during a course of fire.

You encountered an RO who was there to help you through a day of safe fun on the range.  Had he been a range nazi you would have been packing up and heading out.

Having said all that - Welcome to the sport - don't let this minor thing run you off from just about as much fun as you can have with both feet on the ground and all your clothes on.

+1 to the replies, so far.....but aside from the rules, and the safety, that was not the time or place to be wasting everyone's time.

common courtesy

When you're not up, or on-deck, ground your ammo, and go to the SAFE AREA to monkey with your gun.


I'm not saying you should be rushed thru, but on hot summer days, guys don't wanna wait for you to finish dicking with your gun.


make ready methodically safely, and efficiently, unload & show clear the same, help paste, reset steel etc.



...in other words, before the RO says "Make ready".....be completely ready

OK.... I suspose the concept of So without getting into too much detail... and getting side tracked... was lost... My fault on that. Imagine whatever hypothetical you need to in order to get the idea. Let's say the shooter noticed the thread protector was loose.

Now... I see a few comments that have some merit - but only one person has actually supported their statements with the specific rules they are citing. For example, show me where it says make ready is for loading and unloading only.

Don't get caught up on  what I was doing or why - support your statement with the actual rule please. I promise there is a reason I'm asking.



... If you want to try this instead for hypothetical reasons... Picture a gun at a compressed ready and you extend your support hand out directly in front of you, having not swept yourself with the actual muzzle - allow or not allowed? Gun unloaded during make ready.  Technically, you went ahead of the muzzle - it's THAT rule I'd like to see, but can not find.

There's not too much to get sidetracked about or go into detail about. you got peepee slapped by the RO now you're looking for justification for your attitude from strangers on the internet, but the strangers on the internet have seen things like this happen enough to not really have sympathy. In the military what you're doing is called barracks lawyering.

You tried to frame an argument based on only two rules that aren't really even that applicable, and ignore other rules, but more importantly etiquette.


You asked people thier thoughts, don't get shirty when they don't support the position you think they should.

OMG DUIDE... This didn't even actually happen. I'm looking for a rule and giving a hypothetical. I had thought that by making a clear example of what I'm looking for that would help, but all it did was side track people who think they know so much they must have been the hypothetical-RO.

It shouldn't be too much to get people who are in this game to be able to cite the rules.

What more do you need to know? Don't mess with your gun on the line when you're told to make ready?  
It doesn't take a rule book to know how to have common courtesy to other shooters.




Your "hypothetical" situation is built on ignoring a huge amount of real life and experience.

You are acting like a jackass right now.

But to help spoon feed you, you would be breaking rule 8.3.1.  At the make ready command you are to prepare the handgun in accordance with the stage briefing.  If that doesnt include unthreading a muzzle device you are breaking the rule.  You would also be breaking rule 8.4.1 which requires you to point the gun in a safe direction.  Either way your silly thread protector would pass inches in front of your muzzle while being held in your hand.  That is not safe.  

So can you cite a rule that says a body part can not extend past the muzzle before or during a course of fire?

Hypothetically speaking, if your have a hypothetical situation in which a rule book doesn't have clear concise answers for said situation, it might be because the hypothetical situation doesn't happen in real life enough for it to be specifically addressed.  


Hypothetically speaking, if a shooter comes to the line, is told to make ready, and immediately starts changing a thread protector, that shooter is an jerk for wasting peoples time. Especially if they go straight to doing it without so much as a "hey dude, can I change this real fast" to the RO which would at least be common courtesy, the Hypothetical ROP of course would probably say "sure" and boot them off the line and call next shooter because on the line isn't the place to work on guns. Hypothetically then, a cool person would just go handle business and go on with life. But if said hypothetical jerk just started messing with thier muzzle I would think a RO would just DQ them under the nearest appropriate rule, because what kind of guy comes to the line and plays with their muzzle not ready to shoot?






 

OP

don't screw with your gun at the MAKE READY command

It's that simple.


( pun intended LOL )  
.

Right?  Where in the rules does it say there has to be a rule about how to be a conscientious competitor!  

 

you also don't want to be the guy who comes up and isn't ready

mags not loaded

mags not in  mag pouches etc

head unscrewed

Before you're "on deck"  or " in the hole",  you should have your shit together

that includes your threaded muzzle cap.

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5.6.1 A competitor who experiences a malfunction while responding to the "Make Ready” command, but prior
to issuance of the "Start Signal” is entitled to retire to repair his firearm without penalty, under the
authority and supervision of the officiating Range Officer and subject to all other safety rules. Once the
repairs have been completed or a replacement firearm has been approved by the Range Master, the
competitor may return to attempt the course of fire, subject to scheduling as determined by the
officiating Range Officer or Range Master.

Thanks. That's fairly relevant to what I was looking for actually.

Now, does a body part IN FRONT of the muzzle, but not swept by it against any rule? I would think not because a while running with a compressed ready would put knees in feet technical "in front" of the muzzle, but again, this is hard for me to find in the rules.

Yes its against the rules.

 
At make ready?  

8.3.1 "Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of "the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and hearing protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the specified start position. The Range Officer will not proceed with any further range commands until the competitor is still and is in the correct start position.




10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling




Here are your cites.  Now, the question is:  Is touching a thread protector in such a way that your hand and/or fingers touch the sides of the end of the muzzle but do not touch or pass in front of the crown of the muzzle sweeping?  I would not personally DQ someone for that, but I am probably going to stop you and find out WTF you're doing.  It would be a monumentally stupid thing to do, for several reasons.  

 
Not against the rules.

 
Cite the rule.  If I'm running downrange, and I'm pumping my arms in such a way that my weak hand is out in front of my body but not in front of the muzzle, then how is that illegal?




Think about the absurdity if that were actually the rule.  How often are our feet/knees/weak hand/etc. actually further downrange than our muzzle?  Quite often.  Think about seated starts, mags on tables, opening doors, punching a port open...


 

It was dry humor.

I can promise you no one considered that funny....

Thanks wtturn, that's pretty clear.

Right, so what I'm seeing is that at make ready or not IN A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION if a gun needs fixing and that fix requires a hand in front of but not swept by the muzzle, under supervision of an RO that's kosher.

if the gun needs fixing, tell the RO you are not ready

excuse yourself from the squad

drop your ammo, and proceed to the SAFE AREA

then you can change springs, tighten your muzzle cap, change battery, etc..

(the RO will call the next shooter, so your broken gun is not holding up the squad)


then return to the stage and get back in the squad

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PS - when you started this thread, it said nothing about " HYPOTHETICAL " ...you edited and added that later

not that it matters

Except for the whole it's not part, like where I pointed out if you need to fix the shit you have to leave the live at make ready...

 


What's with this whole pedantic argument of yours trying to support an action that everyone clearly feels is both against etiquette, and as I posted against the rules? You're trying to defend it pretty hard.


Why not just be honest and tell the desired end state instead of trying to be all secret squirrel about it?

Was there a safety box/area?  Why didn't you use the proper area to fuck with your pistol?

You already cited the rule, 10.5.7. The break-down is your lack of understanding what is the "course of fire". The course of fire starts once given the make ready command. Therefore, 10.5.7 applies. No hypothetical needed.

Really, you just need to be respectful of the rest of your hypothetical squad and NOT slow down the match by dicking with a gun when you should be ready.

This thread is so full of WIN!!!  Nice job OP.

At this point I regret having wasted the time to post this.

I don't know the rule off the top of my head but I feel like the RO could also deem it a unsafe action as they have some leeway there don't they?

I usually hate discussions like this because in my experience it's usually the same people trying to find any way they can to defeat the stage description yet are horrible shooters. Not talking about the normal gaming but the guys that go out of their way to be a pain in the ass thinking they are clever only to get beat by guys like me who are lowly B shooters just trying to play the game

 
No.  Luckily USPSA doesn't have the equivalent of "failure to do right".

thank God

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