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Posted: 12/31/2014 12:50:00 AM EDT
[#1]
The current requirement that Non-Distinguished shooters can fire in only one National Trophy Pistol Individual Match and a maximum of three EIC matches will be changed to one NTI Match and a maximum of five EIC matches per year. The five EIC match limit will apply to both Service Pistol and .22 Rimfire Pistol EIC Matches as well as to Service Rifle EIC Matches. 
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Posted: 1/1/2015 12:00:49 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The current requirement that Non-Distinguished shooters can fire in only one National Trophy Pistol Individual Match and a maximum of three EIC matches will be changed to one NTI Match and a maximum of five EIC matches per year. The five EIC match limit will apply to both Service Pistol and .22 Rimfire Pistol EIC Matches as well as to Service Rifle EIC Matches. Don't forget that these are the rules for civilians. If you're military, your branch will determine what changes, if any will be allowed. B |
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Posted: 1/2/2015 12:55:00 AM EDT
[#3]
That's true. And they will remove points, and they do restrict you to military only matches ( the Nationals count) for points after you get 20.
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Posted: 1/2/2015 1:05:20 AM EDT
[#4]
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That's true. And they will remove points, and they do restrict you to military only matches ( the Nationals count) for points after you get 20. If / when I earn 20 14 points, that won't be a concern. I've found that civilian matches are more difficult than military matches. Civilian matches are just easier (and cheaper) to get to. ETA: Just double-checked the regs. It's 14 points. "Once 14 points have been earned, further participation in non-Army matches is prohibited." |
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Posted: 1/2/2015 10:16:58 PM EDT
[#5]
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I've found that civilian matches are more difficult than military matches Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That's true. And they will remove points, and they do restrict you to military only matches ( the Nationals count) for points after you get 20. I've found that civilian matches are more difficult than military matches I take it you've never been to interservice... 490 gets you disappointed more than it gets you points. I've been to matches all over the country and I can't say I agree with that statement at all. Are you talking about actual HP matches or combat matches? Combat matches, yes, actual military HP matches, no. When I hit 26 points in 2010, the CMP sent me a letter saying I was forbidden to compete for points except at interservice and the Nationals. The Army then took points away, and told me I could shoot combat like all army or interservice and the Nationals only. So 2011 I deployed, came home an had to wait until the Nationals in 2012 for the last points. If you go to the Nationals, if you make the cut, the cmp will give you 10 points, civilians get to keep these ten points and it counts as a precious metal or hard leg regardless of where they placed, however the army will then take some away and you will get 4,6,8 or ten based on where you placed. And you still need an actual silver or gold leg in your 30 to get the badge from the Army. Good luck |
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Posted: 1/2/2015 10:43:43 PM EDT
[#6]
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Are you talking about actual HP matches or combat matches? Combat matches. I was first leather at the USAR Small Arms Championships and I've yet to shoot an XTC military match. And I probably won't this year, if we're limited to 4. My dance card is already full with one civilian EIC, All-Army, Perry, and the USAR match. |
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Posted: 1/14/2015 1:24:53 AM EDT
[#7]
The army does not intend to go over 4 EICs per year.
V/r Mike Behnke, GS S3 Operations/Competitions U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit 
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Posted: 1/17/2015 12:59:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
The army does not intend to go over 4 EICs per year.
V/r Mike Behnke, GS S3 Operations/Competitions U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y126/von_landstuhl/animations/1377192013_zps2e2982c5.gif Does the Army plan on offering more EIC matches for the great unwashed masses of Soldiers to compete in? How the heck do we find out where these golden Combat EIC matches are being held? |
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Posted: 1/20/2015 7:03:26 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does the Army plan on offering more EIC matches for the great unwashed masses of Soldiers to compete in? How the heck do we find out where these golden Combat EIC matches are being held? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The army does not intend to go over 4 EICs per year.
V/r Mike Behnke, GS S3 Operations/Competitions U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y126/von_landstuhl/animations/1377192013_zps2e2982c5.gif Does the Army plan on offering more EIC matches for the great unwashed masses of Soldiers to compete in? How the heck do we find out where these golden Combat EIC matches are being held? As a Soldier, you can compete in two non-Army matches a year, until you earn 15 points. You can find them here: https://ct.thecmp.org As for Army matches, I'm not aware of any posts or Commands that still sponsor matches, so you're limited to the EICs at All Army, the USAR Championships, the Winston P Wilson Match, Interservice, and the National Matches. This is from Table 3-1 of AR 350-66. All Army and the USAR Championships are combat EICs shot at a modified M9 target. The National Trophy Individual Rifle Match (NTI) is a standard across the course bullseye match. I've not been to the other two, but I'm sure others here can provide more info. |
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Posted: 1/21/2015 10:06:00 AM EDT
[#10]
interservice is standard Bullseye type like CMP, WPW is combat style.
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Posted: 2/1/2015 9:07:57 AM EDT
[#11]
After the CMP has lowered their standards, be glad your badge will say, US ARMY" at the top, and is more prestigious than the civilian equivalent.
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Posted: 2/1/2015 12:35:09 PM EDT
[#12]
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After the CMP has lowered their standards, be glad your badge will say, US ARMY" at the top, and is more prestigious than the civilian equivalent. I'm surprised you have time to post. I thought you'd be busy as hell about now. I was hoping to get down there this week, but there were too many applicants and I didn't make the cut. 
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Posted: 2/1/2015 12:51:01 PM EDT
[#13]
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After the CMP has lowered their standards, be glad your badge will say, US ARMY" at the top, and is more prestigious than the civilian equivalent. The best shooters still win. We shouldn't have the top guys bad mouthing the badge. I cannot change the rules. I can only do my best against others following the rules. I'm sitting at 28 and 26 points for Pistol and Rifle. My badge represents lots of hard work, travel, and the fact that I beat 90% of all non-distinguished at each match all on a budget fully funded by me. . |
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Posted: 2/1/2015 4:28:14 PM EDT
[#14]
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The best shooters still win. That's for sure. I don't see the rifle rule changes effecting much around here. The average low leg in Ohio over the last 5 years (including the National Trophy Individual) has been 469. That's well above the new 455 minimum. |
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Posted: 2/1/2015 8:24:00 PM EDT
[#15]
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The best shooters still win. We shouldn't have the top guys bad mouthing the badge. I cannot change the rules. I can only do my best against others following the rules. I'm sitting at 28 and 26 points for Pistol and Rifle. My badge represents lots of hard work, travel, and the fact that I beat 90% of all non-distinguished at each match all on a budget fully funded by me. . Quote HistoryQuoted:
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After the CMP has lowered their standards, be glad your badge will say, US ARMY" at the top, and is more prestigious than the civilian equivalent. The best shooters still win. We shouldn't have the top guys bad mouthing the badge. I cannot change the rules. I can only do my best against others following the rules. I'm sitting at 28 and 26 points for Pistol and Rifle. My badge represents lots of hard work, travel, and the fact that I beat 90% of all non-distinguished at each match all on a budget fully funded by me. . No one is bad mouthing the badge, but the simple truth is the CMP has lowered the bar when it did no good to do so. Extra matches will only dilute the pool, and I think the expansion of EIC matches will result in lower turnouts. That means less matches where 8&10 pointers are available. "Achievement Pins" instead of medals, extra matches...these are solutions in search of a problem. |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 2:48:26 AM EDT
[#16]
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No one is bad mouthing the badge, but the simple truth is the CMP has lowered the bar when it did no good to do so. Extra matches will only dilute the pool, and I think the expansion of EIC matches will result in lower turnouts. That means less matches where 8&10 pointers are available. "Achievement Pins" instead of medals, extra matches...these are solutions in search of a problem. Keep those EIC place medals, I guess. They're collector items now. Why would a distinguished shooter shoot a leg now? The whole thing was poorly thought out if it was thought about at all. |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 8:55:16 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote History[b]Originally Posted By Epraslick
No one is bad mouthing the badge, but the simple truth is the CMP has lowered the bar when it did no good to do so. Extra matches will only dilute the pool, and I think the expansion of EIC matches will result in lower turnouts. That means less matches where 8&10 pointers are available. "Achievement Pins" instead of medals, extra matches...these are solutions in search of a problem. Agreed. I have received lots of flak for taking this same stance. |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 10:28:11 PM EDT
[#18]
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I'm surprised you have time to post. I thought you'd be busy as hell about now. I was hoping to get down there this week, but there were too many applicants and I didn't make the cut. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
After the CMP has lowered their standards, be glad your badge will say, US ARMY" at the top, and is more prestigious than the civilian equivalent. I'm surprised you have time to post. I thought you'd be busy as hell about now. I was hoping to get down there this week, but there were too many applicants and I didn't make the cut. I am actually TDY at FT Bragg for a month; can't say I miss the headaches of running All Army! |
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Posted: 2/3/2015 10:31:02 AM EDT
[#19]
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I am actually TDY at FT Bragg for a month; can't say I miss the headaches of running All Army! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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After the CMP has lowered their standards, be glad your badge will say, US ARMY" at the top, and is more prestigious than the civilian equivalent. I'm surprised you have time to post. I thought you'd be busy as hell about now. I was hoping to get down there this week, but there were too many applicants and I didn't make the cut. I am actually TDY at FT Bragg for a month; can't say I miss the headaches of running All Army! Enjoy your vacation! |
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Posted: 2/3/2015 10:51:08 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No one is bad mouthing the badge, but the simple truth is the CMP has lowered the bar when it did no good to do so. Extra matches will only dilute the pool, and I think the expansion of EIC matches will result in lower turnouts. That means less matches where 8&10 pointers are available. "Achievement Pins" instead of medals, extra matches...these are solutions in search of a problem. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
After the CMP has lowered their standards, be glad your badge will say, US ARMY" at the top, and is more prestigious than the civilian equivalent. The best shooters still win. We shouldn't have the top guys bad mouthing the badge. I cannot change the rules. I can only do my best against others following the rules. I'm sitting at 28 and 26 points for Pistol and Rifle. My badge represents lots of hard work, travel, and the fact that I beat 90% of all non-distinguished at each match all on a budget fully funded by me. . No one is bad mouthing the badge, but the simple truth is the CMP has lowered the bar when it did no good to do so. Extra matches will only dilute the pool, and I think the expansion of EIC matches will result in lower turnouts. That means less matches where 8&10 pointers are available. "Achievement Pins" instead of medals, extra matches...these are solutions in search of a problem. I guess it's a matter of perspective. To me, they've raised the standards, since you now have to shoot above 455, in addition to be in the top 10% to get points. The unintended affect from that is going to be the bottom 50% are going to pretty much know they don't have any chance at all on getting lucky if the top few stumble, and may well stop going. I think these changes are going to make it harder, and not easier. Allow 5 matches rather than just 3 is wonderful to me. It means I don't have skip matches that I have access to. Still have to shoot top 10%. And if the weather is horrible, I guess I'll just no-show now, because I know bottom 50% will bail....
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Posted: 2/3/2015 1:28:30 PM EDT
[#21]
So as an Army Guard soldier with 14 points from local EIC matches, I can't earn anymore? What if I continue to earn points at the local level?
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Posted: 2/3/2015 5:24:38 PM EDT
[#22]
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So as an Army Guard soldier with 14 points from local EIC matches, I can't earn anymore? What if I continue to earn points at the local level? According to AR 350-66 and Mr Behnke (USAMU Chief of Competitions) all further points are forfeit and each match you enter burns one of your four EICs. |
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Posted: 2/4/2015 12:50:52 PM EDT
[#23]
yep, and they have no problem taking those points from you. I think that even competing in them is considered practice and is not allowed, they sent me a letter that said i was no longer allowed to COMPETE in civilian matches, not just for points, but at all is the way it read to me... its a weird place to be, I suggest you call them and clarify
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Posted: 2/4/2015 1:14:32 PM EDT
[#24]
I called last year and got the answer I posted above. If you want to call yourself, I'd advise waiting until next week. They're pretty busy right now with the All Army competition
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Posted: 2/4/2015 1:39:22 PM EDT
[#25]
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Keep those EIC place medals, I guess. They're collector items now. Why would a distinguished shooter shoot a leg now? The whole thing was poorly thought out if it was thought about at all. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No one is bad mouthing the badge, but the simple truth is the CMP has lowered the bar when it did no good to do so. Extra matches will only dilute the pool, and I think the expansion of EIC matches will result in lower turnouts. That means less matches where 8&10 pointers are available. "Achievement Pins" instead of medals, extra matches...these are solutions in search of a problem. Keep those EIC place medals, I guess. They're collector items now. Why would a distinguished shooter shoot a leg now? The whole thing was poorly thought out if it was thought about at all. Last ones issued were from Florida State last Dec |
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Posted: 2/4/2015 4:35:21 PM EDT
[#26]
I'll start bullseye pistol. I wished that the 1911 lends itself as well to self-maintenance as an AR15. 1911 smiths are hard to come by...a year or more wait for a pistol to be done.
Guess I'll put off retiring till I earn distinguished rifle. |
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Posted: 2/4/2015 6:10:26 PM EDT
[#27]
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I'll start bullseye pistol. I wished that the 1911 lends itself to self-maintenance as an AR15. 1911 smiths are hard to come by. Guess I'll put off retiring till I earn distinguished rifle. I want to start pistol, but I'm going to wait and see if any of the newly authorized pistols become better platforms than the 1911. |
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Posted: 2/4/2015 9:50:32 PM EDT
[#28]
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Last ones issued were from Florida State last Dec End of an era. Welcome to Mediocrity in Competition medals. |
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Posted: 2/4/2015 10:55:57 PM EDT
[#29]
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End of an era. Welcome to Mediocrity in Competition medals. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Last ones issued were from Florida State last Dec End of an era. Welcome to Mediocrity in Competition medals. What a defeatist attitude. The scoresheet will still have a winner on it. Go be the winner. |
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Posted: 2/4/2015 11:24:00 PM EDT
[#30]
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What a defeatist attitude. The scoresheet will still have a winner on it. Go be the winner. Everyone gets a participation medal now and you think we should be happy with it? Mediocrity, like I said. |
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Posted: 2/4/2015 11:24:26 PM EDT
[#31]
From my experience, highpower shooting and bullseye shooting is declining here in Hawaii.
When we schedule a shoot, either practice or match we hope to have enough people to shoot. I'm glad the CMP is trying to address the issue. It makes sense with new rules/accommodations as most shooters would rather shoot something more action-oriented - though I can't tell if they hit any of their targets ...or care to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKDZ2SqXXaY In addition, shooting tacticool brings more money i.e. rails, triggers, etc. How many highpower related accessories are there? The sub niche markets simply can't compare to each other. Tacticool sells more. |
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Posted: 2/4/2015 11:51:59 PM EDT
[#32]
Are you guys saying there are no 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place medals in EIC matches any more?
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Posted: 2/5/2015 12:00:41 AM EDT
[#33]
http://thecmp.org/2015-cmp-competition-rules
There will be a new incentive for more shooters to compete in Rifle and Pistol EIC Matches. Rifle and pistol competitors who are not yet at a level where they can consistently place in the top 10 percent and earn EIC credits can now compete to earn CMP Achievement Pins. This program that has been so popular with As-Issued Military and Rimfire Sporter Rifle club match sponsors has now been adapted for Rifle and Pistol EIC Matches. CMP Achievement Pins will be awarded to all competitors who equal or exceed cut scores for the bronze, silver and gold awards. This means 40-50 percent of EIC Match competitors will receive award recognition from the CMP rather than the former top three only. The EIC Match Award Pin cut scores that will be in effect in 2015 are: Bronze - 450 Silver - 462 Gold - 474 |
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Posted: 2/5/2015 1:19:01 AM EDT
[#34]
I'm a Distinguished, so If I win the over all match there will be nothing, except an Achievement Pin if I break 474? I already have a 495 Club pin from the NRA. I don't think I'm going to get all stiff about a 474 pin. Is there something I'm missing?
B |
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Posted: 2/5/2015 3:48:19 PM EDT
[#35]
Brian, that is correct. The awards are gone from EIC matches. Now there will be achievement pins so everyone can be a winner.
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Posted: 2/5/2015 9:10:55 PM EDT
[#36]
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Brian, that is correct. The awards are gone from EIC matches. Now there will be achievement pins so everyone can be a winner. Thank for the clarification John. I'd like to know who the drooling imbeciles are that came up with that idea? I'd like to believe in my heart that these people are some kind of Obama voters, but I know it's not true. I'm joining The Mars Society so I can leave this fucking ship of fools as soon as I can. B |
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Posted: 2/5/2015 9:24:36 PM EDT
[#37]
The CMP has plenty of games matches, I don't understand why they had to take their last serious adult match program and ruin it, but they did. I'm glad my service rifle days are behind me now.
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Posted: 2/5/2015 11:17:02 PM EDT
[#38]
and that leads to the decline...shooters get their badges then leave...or at least that's what I'm experiencing with our local club.
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Posted: 2/5/2015 11:30:51 PM EDT
[#39]
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and that leads to the decline...shooters get their badges then leave...or at least that's what I'm experiencing with our local club. I thought they got old and then went to match rifle or F-Class? 
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Posted: 2/5/2015 11:45:19 PM EDT
[#40]
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and that leads to the decline...shooters get their badges then leave...or at least that's what I'm experiencing with our local club. Considering there is no longer anything of value to win in an EIC match for someone with the badge, it'll only get worse. |
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Posted: 2/5/2015 11:50:28 PM EDT
[#41]
The badge was as a way of finding the next crop of shooters with potential. That tradition is being carried out with these changes. Bring in new shooters. Give them an award as they make progress. That way they have something material they can show for their time, effort, travel, and expense. The cuts for achievement badges match the cuts at Perry if memory serves.
I'll miss the placement badges. I got four for rifle in the last two years. I got two for pistol in the years prior. In order for newer shooters to show up, it was worth trying something different. As it was, service pistol was headed to the point of no return. Hopefully, this can help turn the tide. If not, we can go back to placement medals until the sports finally die. |
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Posted: 2/6/2015 8:05:34 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Considering there is no longer anything of value to win in an EIC match for someone with the badge, it'll only get worse. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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and that leads to the decline...shooters get their badges then leave...or at least that's what I'm experiencing with our local club. Considering there is no longer anything of value to win in an EIC match for someone with the badge, it'll only get worse. Not just Distinguished shooters. When an up and coming shooter that is still chasing Legs wins their first EIC match and there is nothing, they will get the full effect. It reminds me of a couple of places that use to conveniently forget to announce the match winner because he was from away. This is really intended to drive a certain element of the community out of shooting in CMP events. It's sad as I had hoped my kids would grow up to be HP shooters, but what they are doing is killing it for me and I'm not so sure I want them to compete in this sport. B |
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Posted: 2/7/2015 10:22:48 AM EDT
[#43]
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This is really intended to drive a certain element of the community out of shooting in CMP events. It's sad as I had hoped my kids would grow up to be HP shooters, but what they are doing is killing it for me and I'm not so sure I want them to compete in this sport. I've already lost any interest in EIC pistol. Fortunately, I hadn't bought a hardball gun yet. They want the Gamers and the casual competitors. |
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Posted: 2/7/2015 3:36:54 PM EDT
[#44]
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I've already lost any interest in EIC pistol. Fortunately, I hadn't bought a hardball gun yet. They want the Gamers and the casual competitors. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This is really intended to drive a certain element of the community out of shooting in CMP events. It's sad as I had hoped my kids would grow up to be HP shooters, but what they are doing is killing it for me and I'm not so sure I want them to compete in this sport. I've already lost any interest in EIC pistol. Fortunately, I hadn't bought a hardball gun yet. They want the Gamers and the casual competitors. I've always been a Service Rifle shooter. This winter, I thought that I'd try Service Pistol and bought a thousand 230 gr .45 bullets from Sierra. Now I wish that I bought the lighter semi-wadcutters. |
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Posted: 2/8/2015 10:50:09 AM EDT
[#45]
As a new (2yrs) highpower shooter I will share my thoughts, take it as you will. I dont understand how any of these rule changes will change the end goal of getting your distinguished. The only thing that really impacts it is the increase in matches allowed to participate in, and I do not see how that is a bad thing. Am I missing something here? I think the participation pin is a great idea. Everyone is always talking about how you are "shooting against yourself". if CMP wants to set a threshold score to qualify bronze silver or gold, I think that is cool. However, I really believe that it is a big mistake to get rid of the medals for 1st 2nd and 3rd place. Once someone gets their distinguished, those medals are all that is a real incentive to keep participating in those matches. I think it would be a real loss to NOT have those people on the line. I have learned many things from the seasoned guys on the line at the matches I have been to, some of those things helping me significantly. This community really isn't THAT big, get the word out that people want the medals. Rally the masses at every match you go to, and be on an all out campaign at Perry this year. |
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Posted: 2/10/2015 1:58:53 AM EDT
[#46]
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This community really isn't THAT big, get the word out that people want the medals. Rally the masses at every match you go to, and be on an all out campaign at Perry this year. I'm not sure about that. The P100 shoot-off was not a particularly popular addition to the P100. Unlike any other match in this sport that I can think of, if you make the shoot-off but don't shoot the shoot-off, you are DQ'd for the entire day's match. Apparently, that is how they deal with protest, perceived or otherwise. |
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Posted: 2/10/2015 9:23:08 AM EDT
[#47]
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I'm not sure about that. The P100 shoot-off was not a particularly popular addition to the P100. Unlike any other match in this sport that I can think of, if you make the shoot-off but don't shoot the shoot-off, you are DQ'd for the entire day's match. Apparently, that is how they deal with protest, perceived or otherwise. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This community really isn't THAT big, get the word out that people want the medals. Rally the masses at every match you go to, and be on an all out campaign at Perry this year. I'm not sure about that. The P100 shoot-off was not a particularly popular addition to the P100. Unlike any other match in this sport that I can think of, if you make the shoot-off but don't shoot the shoot-off, you are DQ'd for the entire day's match. Apparently, that is how they deal with protest, perceived or otherwise. I believe the standard arfcom response is, "Their match, their rules." As a noob that hasn't won anything in an EIC match, it would have been nice if they kept the medals. I don't need pins. I won a bronze medal in last year's M1 Carbine match. That was damn cool. |
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Posted: 2/10/2015 11:57:16 AM EDT
[#48]
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I believe the standard arfcom response is, "Their match, their rules." As a noob that hasn't won anything in an EIC match, it would have been nice if they kept the medals. I don't need pins. I won a bronze medal in last year's M1 Carbine match. That was damn cool. I don't think there is anything in the rulebook about that. I think they should have a new club called the CMP 990 Club. These Titans of Industry, do such good work but I'm guessing they should be able to come up with some bobbles for us rubes. It's nice work if you can get it. Just remember kids, stay in school. 
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Posted: 2/10/2015 2:22:53 PM EDT
[#49]
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The salaries are about right for executive level position in a medium sized organization. A little low, depending, but about right. The bonus structure is a bit high though. Not crazy high, but probably about double what I'd expect to see for anything short of a several hundred million dollar a year run-rate company. Overall, this pay structure isn't absurd, but I could see it argued a bit high - depending on the size of the organization. No matter how you slice it though, it's a sweat gig, considering much of your inventory was free, you get to work with cool gun stuff, and your customer base is a bunch of middle aged guys who always pay on time with fawning admiration about your organization. |
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Posted: 2/16/2015 7:54:44 PM EDT
[#50]
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According to AR 350-66 and Mr Behnke (USAMU Chief of Competitions) all further points are forfeit and each match you enter burns one of your four EICs. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So as an Army Guard soldier with 14 points from local EIC matches, I can't earn anymore? What if I continue to earn points at the local level? According to AR 350-66 and Mr Behnke (USAMU Chief of Competitions) all further points are forfeit and each match you enter burns one of your four EICs. Is it just the Army that makes life hard for servicemembers? Do the Navy or Air Force have any anti-competition rules? I ask because I'm a active duty Navy guy, just started shooting service rifle matches last year. No points yet, but I intend to change that this year. 
I'm a doctor at a hospital where people like to pretend they're not in the Navy at all, and just about nobody shoots anything, so I'm kind of on my own figuring all this out. Don't want to run afoul of any Navy rules. I just want to shoot, maybe someday make Distinguished. |
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