Building an AR15 for NM/CMP matches - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Building an AR15 for NM/CMP matches

Posted: 7/7/2014 11:21:03 PM EDT

Good Evening All:

I would imagine that my question is answered somewhere on the site, but I have not found it yet.

Specifically, if one were to want to build a NM tuned AR15 for CMP and AR15 match shooting, is there a listing of the types of parts that I should be buying?

Whose lower receiver would you use? Whose trigger like the Knights Armament or Giessele? Whose upper and barrel would you use?

Or, should I even undertake such a project in the first place? Rather that I buy a ready built gun from a gunsmith?

Is there a sticky thread somewhere on the site that discusses all of this? Like I said, I could not find it.

Appreciate your insight!

Regards,

Wally

Posted: 7/8/2014 12:05:45 AM EDT

[#1]

You have impressive forearms.

You'll want a WOA bbl, a steel free-float tube, & lead weights. Have fun.

Posted: 7/8/2014 2:46:13 AM EDT

[#2]

Have to agree with the WOA.

If you look at one of their match uppers, you will get the picture. In a way, the best thing would be to just order their match upper.

It would come with the proper sights, free-float, match bbl, and be properly built. There is also Compass Lake Engineering on par with WOA.

http://www.compasslake.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=23
https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/home.php?cat=259

On your lower, the adjustable service rifle trigger from GA has been my choice. There are others, but I like the Geiselle.
http://geissele.com/hi-speed-national-match-service-rifle-trigger.html

The A2 stock fits the service rifle rules for the basic class, now there are others for the tactical rifle class, etc.

Weight and balance is a more sophisticated option that you can adjust once you get going.

Posted: 7/8/2014 2:51:25 AM EDT

[#3]

+1 to all that. I'd definitely start off with a WOA upper, particularly for the sights.

A Geiselle tigger will round out the lower.

What load are you thinking of using?

Posted: 7/8/2014 7:03:50 AM EDT

[#4]

Any lower

1st barrel any good 1/8 - 1/7

CLE WOA or RR float tube

WOA/CLE 1/4 min sights

RR trigger is fine to start

Posted: 7/8/2014 7:58:48 AM EDT

[#5]

I bought a used upper from someone leaving the game. I put a G trigger in my lower. I use lead in the buttstock. My barrels are 1:8 twist.

I recently hit 20 of the needed 30 leg points.

If you don't reload, now is a great time to start.

Posted: 7/8/2014 8:26:35 AM EDT

[#6]

Service Rifle or Match Rifle???

Things to consider for SR.

A1 vs A2 stock

Lead in hand guard and butt stock

Pinned or non-pinned rear sight

Windage adjustable FSB

Front post width

Rear aperture diameter and do you need a lens in it?

A2 or A4 upper

There are a lot of good barrels on the market. Kreiger, Douglas, Satern, Bartlien, Green Mountain, Wilson... 1:8 minimum for twist rate. You need to be able to throw 80's.

I used a RRA NM trigger group until it got me for not holding weight. I just puckered up and bought a Geissele.

For manufacturing of uppers, consider Compass Lake and Keystone Accuracy. Both are top notch, right along side WOA (who is on a large back log).

Posted: 7/8/2014 8:33:22 AM EDT

[#7]

http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/

Posted: 7/8/2014 8:00:04 PM EDT

[#8]

If your new to the sport, get a RRA NM rifle. While your wearing that out, save for a new barrel and Giselle trigger and a sight pinning.

Posted: 7/8/2014 9:38:10 PM EDT

[#9]

Heard RRA is selling NM rifles at Perry for the same price as last year... Only able to buy if you live in Ohio or a contiguous state.

Posted: 7/8/2014 10:49:49 PM EDT

[#10]

I am not certain what load I should be using. There seems to be a bunch of different load/bullet configurations, etc.
For a 200 yard match, I was thinking somewhere between the 52 grain and the 69 grain sierra.

For the higher distances at Perry, guessing the 77 grain MKHP.

I primarily shoot at a 100/200 yard range now, mostly off the bench. Haven't really gotten into positions other than off the bench/sandbags.

There is a gunsmith just north of me called "Northern Competition". The folks at Bristol seem to use them a lot. Any thoughts on this company?

It looks like the Giselle trigger seems to be the choice. It also looks like there is no real preference on lowers, the upper and the barrel is where it is at.

Regards,

Wally

Posted: 7/9/2014 12:02:28 AM EDT

[#11]

If I were going to do this again, I would shoot 77s across the course, with the possibility of using 80-82gr Bergers at 600.

Posted: 7/9/2014 12:30:34 AM EDT

[#12]

My plan is to shoot 77's, based as closely as I can reasonably get to a MK262 load, so that I can use for XC and for my MK12 and reload for both. The BH ammo is just too pricey and hard to find to shoot from the factory. I don't want to dip into my MK262 reserves unless ISIS is walking down the street...that MK12 + MK262 combo is just amazing. The IMI 77g MK262 clone is very interesting and I want to find out more about it.

Related to OP's topic, I'd like to get advice on what specific options to consider for a RRA NM A2 upper if I can get to Camp Perry and the price is right on Vendors Row. I need to double check their website, but I know the rear sights can be had in 1/2 or 1/4 MOA, the front sight in various thickness, etc. Depending on the price, I'm probably just going to get an upper unless the full rifle (I'm an OH resident) is a really good deal. Looking at the RRA website, the specific questions I have, as a new NM/XC shooter are:

1) Bead blast the barrel or not?
2) 1/2 or 1/4 MOA rear sight
3) and .03 or .04 aperture?

I think thats it, I am not aware of any other options for an RRA NM A2, upper or rifle. Anything else you feel is "must have" for a new shooter to take advantage of at Camp Perry Vendor Row?

OP, not trying to step on your post, please let me know if you want me to move on and I'll create my own posting.

Posted: 7/9/2014 8:05:33 AM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:

My plan is to shoot 77's, based as closely as I can reasonably get to a MK262 load, so that I can use for XC and for my MK12 and reload for both. The BH ammo is just too pricey and hard to find to shoot from the factory. I don't want to dip into my MK262 reserves unless ISIS is walking down the street...that MK12 + MK262 combo is just amazing. The IMI 77g MK262 clone is very interesting and I want to find out more about it.

Related to OP's topic, I'd like to get advice on what specific options to consider for a RRA NM A2 upper if I can get to Camp Perry and the price is right on Vendors Row. I need to double check their website, but I know the rear sights can be had in 1/2 or 1/4 MOA, the front sight in various thickness, etc. Depending on the price, I'm probably just going to get an upper unless the full rifle (I'm an OH resident) is a really good deal. Looking at the RRA website, the specific questions I have, as a new NM/XC shooter are:

1) Bead blast the barrel or not?

2) 1/2 or 1/4 MOA rear sight

3) and .03 or .04 aperture?

I think thats it, I am not aware of any other options for an RRA NM A2, upper or rifle. Anything else you feel is "must have" for a new shooter to take advantage of at Camp Perry Vendor Row?

OP, not trying to step on your post, please let me know if you want me to move on and I'll create my own posting.

View Quote

1/4 Minute sights

Get a .040 aperture. .030 will likely be way too dim unless it is bright bright bright sunshine. Then after a bit swap it for a Bob Jones Type II kit with replaceable apertures and lenses.

Barrel exterior finish doesn't matter.

You will likely end up ditching the stock .050 front post for something a bit wider. They are cheap, buy a .062 and .072 and try them out.

Buy a lead handguard weight and a lead butt stock weight.

RRA will offer a pre-ban and post ban at Perry (or they did last year). Difference being the bayonet lug and flash hider. Some say the flash hider helps hold the muzzle down. But after you stick 12 lbs of lead in the gun it doesn't really matter. Post ban IMO is easier to clean as you can see into the muzzle, crap doesn't collect in the hider, etc.

Only things I have done to my RRA NM A4 is a Bob Jones setup, Geissele trigger and I replaced the stock FSB with a WOA windage adjustable FSB (requires you to remove barrel to spot on mill).

I would also pick one load and shoot it XTC and short course. It won't screw with your head remembering all of the elevation differences. 77 SMK, Nosler, whatever for 300 and in, 80 whatever (or 77 if you want) at 600. Reloader 15 and 8208 are nice powders to use since you can drop them rather than weigh each one. I never weigh much except maybe initially my 600 yard loads.

Have to remember the 10 ring is 2 minutes in diameter. You are going to throw more error into the bullet POI than a tenth or two of powder or tweaking an extra 1/4 minute out of the gun.

Your eyes and your abilities are by far the limiting factor with a service rifle.

Posted: 7/9/2014 8:38:11 PM EDT

[#14]

Not at all. Glad to see your posts here. By all means no need to remove your ideas.

It would be sort of cool to attend a clinic put on by RRA or WOA where we could actually fire the weapons and get a feel for what we want as the customer.

Posted: 7/20/2014 8:00:15 AM EDT

[#15]

I took this picture because most don't know exactly what they want, because they don't really know what's out there. The top is a service rifle (must be in standard issue military configuration, with iron sights). The bottom is a match rifle, with a long barrel, extremely expensive match sights, a light trigger, adjustable stock, etc. Most people start off with a service rifle upper because they are cheaper and much simpler to use, and they really let you focus on marksmanship basics rather than the gun itself.

There are many good builders out there. White Oak, Compass Lake, Keystone Accuracy, Accurate & Reliable, just to name a few. All of the owners I listed are high power shooters, so if you give them a call and tell them what you want, they will set you up.

Posted: 7/20/2014 8:04:57 PM EDT

[#16]

So are the service rifle competitions now allowing rails, flattops, & collapsible stocks?

Posted: 7/20/2014 8:30:14 PM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:
So are the service rifle competitions now allowing rails, flattops, & collapsible stocks?

View Quote

No, except for flattops, but it still has to have a handle on it.

Posted: 7/20/2014 8:36:59 PM EDT

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:

So are the service rifle competitions now allowing rails, flattops, & collapsible stocks?

View Quote

I believe rails are now allowed, Flat tops would have to use the carry handle. (National match rifles can be found in A2 or A4 configuration). No collapsable stocks in service rifle matches. There are some funky stocks in use for Match rifle competitions however.

See section 6.2.3 of the following document.

http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/Rulebook.pdf

The M16A4 quad rail or commercial equivalent hand-guard may be used.

The quad rail must be 12” in length and

have four rails at the 12, 3, 6 and

9 o’clock positions running the entir

e length of the hand-guard. The

diameter of the rail must be at least 2” and not more than 2.5”. The rail

may be free floating. The front sling swivel must be attached to the front

end of the hand-guard. The standard A-

frame front sight must be fixed in

the as-issued position on the barrel. Plastic covers may be used on the

mounting rails on the hand-guard

Posted: 7/20/2014 10:15:23 PM EDT

[#19]

Given the Marines' adoption of the M16A4, I figured they had to allow rails now, but I am curious now the Army has a collapsible stock modification kit for their A2s.

Posted: 7/20/2014 10:47:08 PM EDT

[#20]

Most quad rails are too light, and none give any advantage over a standard float tube.

Posted: 7/21/2014 1:32:18 AM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:

Most quad rails are too light, and none give any advantage over a standard float tube.

View Quote

You aren't kidding, my service rifle must weigh close to 17 pounds if not more.

Posted: 7/21/2014 1:53:38 AM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:
You aren't kidding, my service rifle must weigh close to 17 pounds if not more.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Most quad rails are too light, and none give any advantage over a standard float tube.

You aren't kidding, my service rifle must weigh close to 17 pounds if not more.

Some get upwards of 19 lbs, depending on the weights.

Posted: 7/21/2014 8:15:54 AM EDT

[#23]

Quote History

Quoted:
Not at all. Glad to see your posts here. By all means no need to remove your ideas.

It would be sort of cool to attend a clinic put on by RRA or WOA where we could actually fire the weapons and get a feel for what we want as the customer.

View Quote

The rifle small arms firing school at Camp Perry during the nationals is done with Rock River rifles. I liked them so much that I went to vendors row right after the match and bought one. It is very hard to beat a Rock Ricer NM rifle for a great starter gun for service rifle competition.

Posted: 7/21/2014 9:46:16 PM EDT

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:
If your new to the sport, get a RRA NM rifle. While your wearing that out, save for a new barrel and Giselle trigger and a sight pinning.

View Quote

Instructing at SAFS I see them perform well. Bought my son one, of I added weight I could shoot HM scores with it. Made master in my first 3 matches with a used RRA upper.. Lasted 3000 rounds plus an unknown amount before that. Save the money, shoot 77's all the way back, when you start hitting 480/770, or more, get more. It's all you need to get there.

Posted: 7/24/2014 8:23:04 PM EDT

[#25]

Quote History

Quoted:
Most quad rails are too light, and none give any advantage over a standard float tube.

View Quote

Geissele Automatics now has a quad rail called the MK7 designed specifically for CMP NM shooting that will be available later this summer. The rail features a removable weight system, an attached sling swivel in the proper location held in place by a steel pin and our proprietary barrel nut. We have a rifle equipped with the MK7 rail that weighs 14.8 lbs.total weight with a lead wedge in the butt stock and steel weights in the rail here on display here at Camp Perry. People are commenting that they like the width and feel with the grip panels in place. Instead of steel weights in the rail, lead weights will be used that will increase the overall weight when the rail is available.

JB
Geissele Automatics

Posted: 7/24/2014 9:22:50 PM EDT

[#26]

Run a steel lower & you can break 20 lbs: http://www.theflatspot.net/ar-15-receiver-flat.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/648352_I_welded_together_a_steel_receiver_from_theflatspot_net__Update_6_11_Paint_Job_on_page_3.html&page=4#i6550717

Posted: 7/25/2014 3:46:32 PM EDT

[#27]

DPMS used to make a stainless upper and lower...

Posted: 7/27/2014 10:34:18 AM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:
Run a steel lower & you can break 20 lbs: http://www.theflatspot.net/ar-15-receiver-flat.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/648352_I_welded_together_a_steel_receiver_from_theflatspot_net__Update_6_11_Paint_Job_on_page_3.html&page=4#i6550717

View Quote

unfortunatly that lower is not service rifle legal

Posted: 7/27/2014 11:59:16 AM EDT

[#29]

Quote History

Quoted:

unfortunatly that lower is not service rifle legal

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Run a steel lower & you can break 20 lbs: http://www.theflatspot.net/ar-15-receiver-flat.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/648352_I_welded_together_a_steel_receiver_from_theflatspot_net__Update_6_11_Paint_Job_on_page_3.html&page=4#i6550717

unfortunatly that lower is not service rifle legal

What has to be done for it to be legal? Do they allow billet lowers?

Posted: 7/27/2014 8:24:17 PM EDT

[#30]

trigger gaurd has to be standard milspec

Posted: 7/27/2014 11:55:12 PM EDT

[#31]

Quote History

Quoted:
trigger gaurd has to be standard milspec

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Ah. So you'd have to cut out the steel, drill the pin holes, & install a standard aluminum trigger guard? Is that the only difference? Can it say,"Pew, Pew, Pew," on the safety?

Posted: 7/28/2014 10:43:48 PM EDT

[#32]

yup and it can say no pew for safe

Posted: 8/6/2014 10:32:46 PM EDT

[#33]

I started with a RRA lower and put it together with a RRA NM trigger and A1 stock. The upper RRA NM was bought from AR15 sales.com cheaper than I could build it. I spent just under 800. I also cobbled together my match rifle. You can spend a lot more on certain items (upper, lower, bcg) but good sights, barrel and trigger is where the money should go. You can start with less and work your way up and also fun to do.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Building an AR15 for NM/CMP matches

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