User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 5/27/2014 5:17:35 PM EDT
[#1]
What does the NRA shoot consist of
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2014 5:31:57 PM EDT
[#2]
Considering one can shoot Army Expert on a 25 Meter range with a sub-cal insert from the prone only, I'd say NRA by a couple of big margins.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2014 5:38:23 PM EDT
[#3]
Army vs NRA? probably NRA
what targets do they shoot for NRA? That'd be the breaker for USMC vs NRA |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2014 6:07:06 PM EDT
[#4]
NRA is XTC 200/300/600
But do not stand for rapids |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2014 6:11:37 PM EDT
[#5]
But nobody is shooting back at the NRA.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2014 6:19:55 PM EDT
[#6]
NRA over Army, USMC over NRA
99.9% of military isnt getting shot back at either
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2014 6:35:16 PM EDT
[#7]
NRA classifications are no joke. For pistol, they are quite a challenge.
Going Distinguished and/or making the President's Hundred is the ultimate goal for many of the best of the best. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2014 6:53:36 PM EDT
[#8]
The NRA match sound a LOT like USMC. But with the USMC combines the KD and a table 2 CMP score
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2014 7:47:12 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Considering one can shoot Army Expert on a 25 Meter range with a sub-cal insert from the prone only, I'd say NRA by a couple of big margins. My M16 qualifications were different. Random popup targets at 25m to 300m. Targets were timed. 20 rounds in foxhole supported position and 20 rounds in unsupported prone position. Expert was 36 hits or better Sharpshooter was 30 to 35 hits Marksman was 23 to 29 hits Less than 23 was a "bolo" or no qualification |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/28/2014 12:22:15 PM EDT
[#10]
NRA over Army qualification every day of the week and twice on sunday.
I was in the army and qualified expert on the pop up range(300m) with the M16A2. I first started shooting highpower while I was still in and I was classed marksman while shooting the m1 garand. After about 6 months of shooting the garand i switched to the AR15 i was shooting sharpshooter scores. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/28/2014 12:27:22 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
NRA over Army, USMC over NRA This 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/28/2014 1:13:22 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What does the NRA shoot consist of It can vary from match to match depending on the facilities available, but generally it's: 20 shots, standing, slow, 200 yards 20 shots, kneeling, rapid, 200 yards 20 shots, prone, rapid, 300 yards 20 shots, prone, slow, 600 yards Rapid fire is about a minute for ten shots. Slow fire is about a minute per shot. In an 80-round match, the maximum score is 800. To shoot at the Expert level, you have to shoot in the 89th percentile or higher, which is a score of 712. Obviously, that's an average score of 8.9 per shot. To put that in perspective, the size of the 9-ring at various distances are: 200 yards - 13 inches 300 yards - 13 inches 600 yards - 18 inches For comparison, I'm told the width of a standard full-size Army pop-up target is 18 inches. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/28/2014 1:14:33 PM EDT
[#13]
The Marine KD (table 1) was based on the National Match Course from like 1906
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/28/2014 1:48:57 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Marine KD (table 1) was based on the National Match Course from like 1906 The NMC and the USMC course of fire are all based on the original Army KD qualification tables from the early 1900's. As far as which is "tougher", it's not really a valid comparison. When you are shooting Army, NRA, or USMC tables, you are only competing against your peers in the same discipline. A better question is if the highest class holders (Expert USA/USMC &NRA High Master) all shot each other's course of fire who would be the best? The winner of that contest would be the NRA High Master. That is indisputable. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/28/2014 1:53:08 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It can vary from match to match depending on the facilities available, but generally it's: 20 shots, standing, slow, 200 yards 20 shots, kneeling, rapid, 200 yards 20 shots, prone, rapid, 300 yards 20 shots, prone, slow, 600 yards Rapid fire is about a minute for ten shots. Slow fire is about a minute per shot. In an 80-round match, the maximum score is 800. To shoot at the Expert level, you have to shoot in the 89% percentile or higher, which is a score of 712. Obviously, that's an average score of 8.9 per shot. To put that in perspective, the size of the 9-ring at various distances are: 200 yards - 13 inches 300 yards - 13 inches 600 yards - 18 inches For comparison, I'm told the width of a standard full-size Army pop-up target is 18 inches. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What does the NRA shoot consist of It can vary from match to match depending on the facilities available, but generally it's: 20 shots, standing, slow, 200 yards 20 shots, kneeling, rapid, 200 yards 20 shots, prone, rapid, 300 yards 20 shots, prone, slow, 600 yards Rapid fire is about a minute for ten shots. Slow fire is about a minute per shot. In an 80-round match, the maximum score is 800. To shoot at the Expert level, you have to shoot in the 89% percentile or higher, which is a score of 712. Obviously, that's an average score of 8.9 per shot. To put that in perspective, the size of the 9-ring at various distances are: 200 yards - 13 inches 300 yards - 13 inches 600 yards - 18 inches For comparison, I'm told the width of a standard full-size Army pop-up target is 18 inches. more shots, bigger targets form what I see |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/28/2014 1:55:07 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The NMC and the USMC course of fire are all based on the original Army KD qualification tables from the early 1900's. As far as which is "tougher", it's not really a valid comparison. When you are shooting Army, NRA, or USMC tables, you are only competing against your peers in the same discipline. A better question is if the highest class holders (Expert USA/USMC &NRA High Master) all shot each other's course of fire who would be the best? The winner of that contest would be the NRA High Master. That is indisputable. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The Marine KD (table 1) was based on the National Match Course from like 1906 The NMC and the USMC course of fire are all based on the original Army KD qualification tables from the early 1900's. As far as which is "tougher", it's not really a valid comparison. When you are shooting Army, NRA, or USMC tables, you are only competing against your peers in the same discipline. A better question is if the highest class holders (Expert USA/USMC &NRA High Master) all shot each other's course of fire who would be the best? The winner of that contest would be the NRA High Master. That is indisputable. For pure shooting ability the NRA high master would be tops, but unless they have done other training, they may have trouble on the Army course but would not have trouble on Table 1 of the Marine CMP. Similarly someone training on the Army course would have problems with the NRA or Table 1 without additional training. Someone trained on table 1 could shoot on the NRA course but probably not to the level of the NRA high master but often will have trouble on the pop up course |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/28/2014 2:37:55 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It actually may surprise you. But for pure shooting ability the NRA high master would be tops, but unless they have done other training, they may have trouble on the Army course but would not have trouble on Table 1 of the Marine CMP. Similarly someone training on the Army course would have problems with the NRA or Table 1 without additional training. Someone trained on table 1 could shoot on the NRA course but probably not to the level of the NRA high master but often will have trouble on the pop up course Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Marine KD (table 1) was based on the National Match Course from like 1906 The NMC and the USMC course of fire are all based on the original Army KD qualification tables from the early 1900's. As far as which is "tougher", it's not really a valid comparison. When you are shooting Army, NRA, or USMC tables, you are only competing against your peers in the same discipline. A better question is if the highest class holders (Expert USA/USMC &NRA High Master) all shot each other's course of fire who would be the best? The winner of that contest would be the NRA High Master. That is indisputable. It actually may surprise you. But for pure shooting ability the NRA high master would be tops, but unless they have done other training, they may have trouble on the Army course but would not have trouble on Table 1 of the Marine CMP. Similarly someone training on the Army course would have problems with the NRA or Table 1 without additional training. Someone trained on table 1 could shoot on the NRA course but probably not to the level of the NRA high master but often will have trouble on the pop up course No surprises I think. I've shot them all, and have scored in the top tier of each. After one practice (as required by Army FM) a good shooter, i.e. A High Master, would have the 50M fast Freddie down and have no real issues. I have seen some Army ranges that are devilish; where the terrain masks part of the target or obscures the 300M, but the majority are just mounds in the open where targets are easily identifiable. A HM score (97%) is so far beyond the standard issue Marine or Soldier, especially at 600 yards, with iron sights, it's a true deal breaker. In my experience, even the most naturally gifted and experienced shooter does not approach HM scores in NRA High Power until at least 3 months of constant practice. Where the USMC table 1, which is the constant being compared to, is really just a watered down version of the old NMC COF. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/28/2014 2:54:08 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No surprises I think. I've shot them all, and have scored in the top tier of each. After one practice (as required by Army FM) a good shooter, i.e. A High Master, would have the 50M fast Freddie down and have no real issues. I have seen some Army ranges that are devilish; where the terrain masks part of the target or obscures the 300M, but the majority are just mounds in the open where targets are easily identifiable. A HM score (97%) is so far beyond the standard issue Marine or Soldier, especially at 600 yards, with iron sights, it's a true deal breaker. In my experience, even the most naturally gifted and experienced shooter does not approach HM scores in NRA High Power until at least 3 months of constant practice. Where the USMC table 1, which is the constant being compared to, is really just a watered down version of the old NMC COF. If you don't mind, can you restate that as a quantifiable metric, ie how many rounds per day? I've often wondered what you guys put new shooters through to get them up to speed. Is your training program a closely guarded secret? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/28/2014 3:10:56 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you don't mind, can you restate that as a quantifiable metric, ie how many rounds per day? I've often wondered what you guys put new shooters through to get them up to speed. Is your training program a closely guarded secret? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No surprises I think. I've shot them all, and have scored in the top tier of each. After one practice (as required by Army FM) a good shooter, i.e. A High Master, would have the 50M fast Freddie down and have no real issues. I have seen some Army ranges that are devilish; where the terrain masks part of the target or obscures the 300M, but the majority are just mounds in the open where targets are easily identifiable. A HM score (97%) is so far beyond the standard issue Marine or Soldier, especially at 600 yards, with iron sights, it's a true deal breaker. In my experience, even the most naturally gifted and experienced shooter does not approach HM scores in NRA High Power until at least 3 months of constant practice. Where the USMC table 1, which is the constant being compared to, is really just a watered down version of the old NMC COF. If you don't mind, can you restate that as a quantifiable metric, ie how many rounds per day? I've often wondered what you guys put new shooters through to get them up to speed. Is your training program a closely guarded secret? It's not a secret. We train on individual skill sets (standing, rapids, 600 yards) using drills for each. In a perfect world the guys shoot about 100 rounds per day, 3-4 days a week. Example of a day's training for short line: (1) Blind standing exercise: 20 shots, no scoping. Dry fire 2 for every live round. Minimum time 45 minutes. (2) 10 shots pair fire standing with teammate. (3) Rapid sitting drill (x4): 5 shots, 1st mag 2 rounds, 2nd mag 3 rounds. (4) Rapid sitting 10 shot string (x2). (5) 300 yard rapid drills that mirror 200 yard drills. Total 110 rounds. Just bullets down range surrounded by only the right way to do things. It accelerates the curve rapidly. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/28/2014 5:52:32 PM EDT
[#20]
Thanks for the information!
I used this as a basis for additional research and I found the shooting tips on the CMP website. I noticed the author says, "An extra section of lead can be added into the hand guard just for this exercise and then removed when firing." I currently have lead in the butt and lower hand guard. As a new shooter, should I stick with that or take some out? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/28/2014 6:24:38 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks for the information! I used this as a basis for additional research and I found the shooting tips on the CMP website. I noticed the author says, "An extra section of lead can be added into the hand guard just for this exercise and then removed when firing." I currently have lead in the butt and lower hand guard. As a new shooter, should I stick with that or take some out? The deal with weight in the gun really depends on your hold. My guys like a muzzle heavy rifle. If you have a good hold, a muzzle heavy gun will give you slower movement. For a shooter with an average (9 ring) to a poor (8 ring or worse) hold benefits more from a rifle that balances at the mag well, or slightly behind. With the multitude of weight options (full length cuffs that can be cut to desired weight) and wheel weights, you should be able to set it up so that it doesn't work against you. We don't add extra weight for the drills, but guys typically add weight as the season progresses, and they get stronger. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/28/2014 6:26:59 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks for the information! I used this as a basis for additional research and I found the shooting tips on the CMP website. I noticed the author says, "An extra section of lead can be added into the hand guard just for this exercise and then removed when firing." I currently have lead in the butt and lower hand guard. As a new shooter, should I stick with that or take some out? Use whatever set up helps you hold the steadiest. I use lead in the buttstock, but none in the hand guard. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/30/2014 6:06:07 PM EDT
[#23]
i Shoot a 15 lb AR that balances on the delta ring. My m1a and m1 garand are a tad butt heavy but there is nowhere to stick weight out front. they are between 12 and 13 lbs
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/31/2014 7:43:19 PM EDT
[#24]
NRA >Marine > Army
I've never got to shoot the Army pop up course but have done the rundown type Army Matches at Little Rock CNGB/WPW and done well. Shot the Marine table 1 twice and made expert with points to spare both times, one with a loose bbl. The Table 1 was a piece of cake and I was only a NRA expert at the time. From my obs over the yrs shooting HP and doing interservice stuff, the Marines generally do better than the Army guys with only pop-up qual experience on the XTC NRA match. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/3/2014 9:30:08 PM EDT
[#25]
There is a big difference in training time too. A NRA competitor would practice on their own weekly. An Army shooter gets to live fire practice a few times a year if lucky although some are passionate enough to practice on their own and be great on both sides.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/7/2014 6:50:59 PM EDT
[#26]
We had an Across the Course match at Camp Lejeune in. . . Either 2008 or 2009 that was during Division Matches. In order to better accommodate the Marines shooting rack M16's, the match director used the 5v Able and Baker targets and shot the slow fire prone at 500 yards. The civvies with their NM AR's were cleaning up. One gal said it was her first rapid fire clean. Though she did realize exactly WHY it was a clean. Still, she was happy nonetheless.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/8/2014 1:32:40 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is a big difference in training time too. A NRA competitor would practice on their own weekly. An Army shooter gets to live fire practice a few times a year if lucky although some are passionate enough to practice on their own and be great on both sides. I'm USAR. The only live fire practice I get is when I zero. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/8/2014 5:11:26 PM EDT
[#28]
My MTOE weapon is an M9, I haven't qualified since 2011... Yeah...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/8/2014 6:38:43 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My MTOE weapon is an M9, I haven't qualified since 2011... Yeah... Irony. You has it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2014 9:03:02 PM EDT
[#30]
It's not like it's promotion points or anything...oh wait... Yeah it is..
I haven't been assigned a rifle since 1998... And I went distinguished in rifle..
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2014 6:36:44 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not like it's promotion points or anything...oh wait... Yeah it is..
I haven't been assigned a rifle since 1998... And I went distinguished in rifle.. Yeah, that's why I said it's ironic. Does your unit at least utilize your talents to teach marksmanship? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/12/2014 5:15:40 AM EDT
[#32]
This seems as good a place as any for this:
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/12/2014 6:19:55 PM EDT
[#33]
That's awesome! And no they do not use me for that at all.. I even volunteered to do it for any unit in the state.... Nothing.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/13/2014 10:26:07 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's awesome! And no they do not use me for that at all.. I even volunteered to do it for any unit in the state.... Nothing. Big Army's mentality with marksmanship is that it can be taught relatively quickly. What is important to CDRs is personnel readiness (MOSqd). |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/18/2014 9:57:16 AM EDT
[#35]
I'm the guy the OP quoted. Yes, it's hard to make a direct comparison but I have seen a few military expert guys/girls shoot their first highpower match. I can't recall any of them scoring anywhere near NRA expert. It's not that they are poor shots, it's more that the highpower course is challenging and it takes a good gun, good ammo, a good shooter and a fair bit of practice. The course is designed to be challenging and the skill it takes to shoot at the top level is considerable. Nobody has an easy time of it until you have done it a few times.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/25/2014 8:30:51 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Big Army's mentality with marksmanship is that it can be taught relatively quickly. What is important to CDRs is personnel readiness (MOSqd). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That's awesome! And no they do not use me for that at all.. I even volunteered to do it for any unit in the state.... Nothing. Big Army's mentality with marksmanship is that it can be taught relatively quickly. What is important to CDRs is personnel readiness (MOSqd). Don't forget SHARP, MRT and those other annual classes. Can't miss those. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
