JUST DO IT!!!!!

Show up with whatcha got, pay your match fee and shoot. You need one rifle and 2 magazines. Period.

That’s all there is to it.

Yeah, yer gonna be layin’ in the mud, and yeah, you ain’t gonna do as well as somebody that’s been doin’ it for years. That’s a given. But what did you expect? Are you really dumb enough to think you were going to ‘leg out’ at your first match? C’mon. Get real.

I recommend starting out at a 200 yard reduced course for a number of reasons. Mainly because you really don’t need a spotting scope if the target puller will use the 2 ½” spotting disk. You can see that with the naked eye from 200 yards. Still need a little help? A cheap pair of binoculars works great.

But…but… but…

But, nothin’. All that fancy gear don’t mean squat.

Few of us had much when we started. Most of us improvised.

Notice that it’s the older shooters that have a lot of the nicer gear. That’s because they’ve been collecting it for years. Among the younger guys that have nice gear there are 3 types.

First, there’s the rich. They generally have more money than brains or talent.

Then there’s the kind that made a lot of it themselves or borrowed it from their dads or are single.

Thirdly, there’s the kind that replace a mat every time it gets dirty or get a new scope every six months. These guys are pretty easy to spot. Go to his shack while his 6 kids are leaving for school. They’re the ones that are walking through the snow barefoot in worn out clothes with a burlap bag as an overcoat. But, By Golly, Dear old dad sure has some pretty neat gear!

First-class gear IS expensive. It takes time and sacrifice to save and accumulate gear. At least if you’re working class.


Still, if you’re there to improve yourself, all you need is a rifle that shoots better than you do, some ammo and a couple magazines.

One of our guys, Blind_Rat, is a High Master and he’s now shooting matches with a cheap kit rifle and a cheapie jacket. He can beat the pants off of a lot of us with that kit rifle. Of course, he CAN shoot somewhat better with his match rifle, but the point is that he gets pretty damned good scores with a kit (as-issued) rifle.

(He’ll tell you guys he shoots off a leopard skin mat, but the truth is that it’s really a mat he made from a leopard print piece of polyester he bought at Wally World. Don’t be fooled.)

And don’t let the lack of gear keep you from shooting!

Unless, of course, you are there for show. In which case, please don’t waste our time. Shooting ain’t a yacht club. Unlike many some of the boats you see at a yacht club, we USE out rifles.


As for expensive gear and highly modified rifles, get out and shoot the course a few times before buying ANYTHING. With the price of gear, you only want to buy it once. Take it from me. I accumulated my gear one piece at a time, and have thought out every single piece for quite a while before I shelled out my hard-earned cash. Still, as I WAS slowly accumulating my gear, I shot every chance I got.

Shooting is what we go to matches for.

I remember my first match. I showed up with an M-1 and some surplus ammo. I wandered in and found a guy that looked like me might be someone and simply said: “I want to shoot.”

He said, “I want your money. By the way, is this your first match?”

I told him it was and he shouted at a 12 year-old kid, “New guy! I’m puttin’ him next to you! Keep an eye on him!”

Smart move on his part. The kid got the responsibility of teaching a new shooter, and I learned the rules from him. Sharp kid. When I act as RO, I do the same thing. Last time, I put a new shooter next to a 13 year-old girl and gave her the same orders.

My second match I showed up with my M-1 and an oven mitt. I did better. Not because of the oven mitt, but because at least I had a clue as to how the match was run and I relaxed a bit.

Besides, I was now an EXPERIENCED shooter.

If you want to shoot, shoot. Don’t talk.

Piccolo,
 Good post!  Too many people get wrapped up with the gear, and lose sight of the big picture.

Thanks for the post. I can't help but think that some of this is directed at me, with due cause I might add. Thanks to you piccolo, I am going to attend the first match of the season at our local range on March 6th. I will post the results, and how much fun I had.

I dunno... I agree to a large degree that the experience counts more than the equipment.  But on the other hand, junk equipment (including ammo) can be detrimental beyond belief.  Let me relate a little story (non-HP, but still competitive shooting):

I had shot trap some in high school.  We even had a team of sorts, and overall averaged better than some of the adult teams.  Not great, but not too bad.  Later, after I got out of the Navy, the steel mill I was working at happened to have a batch of old coots that shot trap as a team, and they needed an extra for times when one of  the others couldn't make it to the shoots.  When I grew up, all anyone used was their hunting shotguns, and field ammo.  That's what I took to the first couple practices.  A Mossberg 835 w/ Federal field loads.  I think I broke like 6 on one round, and 8 on the other.  I was so stinkin' mad I was about to put the gun down and start just throwing the darn shells.  One old boy took a look at my stuff, grimaced, and had me shoot his Citori Trap Special, 32" back-bored and ported barrels, adjustable stock, the whole nine yards, w/ heavy-handicap trap loads.  Suddenly I was back where I thought I should be, about 21-22 (remember, I was over 6 years out of practice).  I bought a BT-99 Trap Plus the next week at a gun show, and my average rose to about 24.  Started winning money in some of the league shoots.  Amazingly, now I could still average 22-23 w/ that old clunker Mossberg.  No telling how long it would have taken me to get from point A to point B w/ the previous junk equipment and loads.

I personally don't mind if someone wants to shoot w/ spartan gear after they've made Master or High Master.  But in my mind at least, it doesn't prove much, other than that he/she is sufficiently skilled to work around the limitations of the equipment.  Limitations that might impede severely the progress of a new shooter.  I think the shooter should get the best stuff they can get, and then go shoot w/ that.  Like was mentioned earlier, you don't need a fully loaded range  cart w/ all the toys to shoot.  But I think the gun itself and the ammo you use should be of decent quality.  Maybe not Olympic grade, but decent.

Monte

www.ar15.com/forums/announcement.html?b=1&f=10&id=205

The link list is constantly being added to and modified.  If you have any more Getting Started links or any other that may be useful please IM or email me. Thank you.

Doug

Monte, I have seen a guy win from the 16 yard trap line against 50 other shooters with a 870 Express.  Between your ears is usually where it's at. IMO

Naked80,

No doubt.  I saw the same thing from time to time.  But just because I saw someone else do that, doesn't mean I'm about to even consider it.  I've also seen people shoot some fantastic scores w/ some unbelievably fancy equipment.  I'm not rushing out to buy everything, or even anything, thats on their equipment list.  I myself am going w/ equipment that should be 'no-excuses' for pretty much until something wears out, but w/o breaking the piggy bank.  YMMV.

Monte

Great post Piccolo !!!

I went to my fist match last December. A CMP orientation match. Brought my own M1 that I had shot just once. Paid my money laid down of a piece of cardboard and had a great time.

I've been looking at all the $$$$ I could spend on all the clothing and equipment but your advice is better - just go and shoot !  I'll only be competing against myself for some time.

regards....rewster

I shot my first match, a CMP to qualify to buy a Garand, lying on a beach towel, shooting American Eagle 55gr out of a stock AR with a 1/9 barrel.  

When I decided to try highpower, I went to a clinic the ISRA Gold Team puts on every April.  After that, I put a 2-stage trigger in the stock gun ($125) and shot the rest of the season with that rifle.  I used a tarp for a mat, borrowed other shooters' spotting scopes, and got a nice, but used, coat for Father's Day.  An oven mitt would've been an improvement over the glove I used.  Made expert.

For the next season, I had a float tube and 1/4 x 1/4 sights put on the rifle.  I got a decent mat and stool.  I bought a scope stand, and put my crappy Tasco spotting scope on it.  Made master.

For this upcoming season, I've gone all-out.  Stainless barrel on the rifle, new glove, and a Kowa scope.  Even got one of them fancy Ray-Vin wheel kits for the stool.  (It's all about the bling-bling!)

Point being, you don't have to buy everything all at once.  Now I think I've got pretty decent stuff, but it took me three years to accumulate it all, and the experience I got during that time is priceless.  It's better to get out there and shoot with what you've got, and accumulate gear as you learn what you like and what you need.    

I showed up for my first match last year with a stock Bushy AR, the cheap shooters coat, my hunting handloads, and a heavy work glove.  The course was a reduced 200yd course and I finished with a 754!  Now after a few matches I realize just how beneficial that first match was for me.  No, it wasn't the hardest course (remember - 200yds) but it was what I needed to get confidence in myself that I COULD do this.  I have since been humbled by full size courses but I wasn't totally humiliated either.  I agree, just show up and do it!  You won't regret it.

CMP, not DCM...

sorry, picking nits...

The oldtimers give themselves away by saying "DCM", so, better to listen to them for advice.[:D]
Borg

I remember my first match.  I had nothing and was slightly embarrassed when I saw everybody else's gear.  The embarrassment quickly went away when the match started and was replaced with nervousness!  I think I was only able to relax until after my third match.  I agree with everyone here!  Why wait!  Jump in and get your feet wet. The only things I would recommend is to make sure you have a sling, single fire follower, and a safety flag.  I was lucky to team up with someone with a mat and a spotting scope!

I fired my first match last weekend.  Here's what I learned:

- It's hard work

- It's fun

- No matter how well you do in other disciplines HP is "different"

- It's hard work

- Sight settings change with psoitions

- It's fun

- You can't get the sling too tight

- It's hard work

- The wind will gust just as you break the shot

...and finally

- It's hard work and fun.

I'm hooked.

Eddie

Bet you feel like a dumbass for not starting earlier.

I'd LOVE for you to post what gear you did/didn't show up with.

Not that it matters.......

Just curious.

Admit it Pic, you just want new shooters with crappy equipment to come out because you're tired of finishing last, [;)]

Showed up with:

- ArmaLite lower with match trigger

- RRA CMP Upper (zeroed for standing)

- Plenty of mags and my handloads

- A borrowed sling

- My issued field jacket

- A used mat

- Old dove hunting stool

Didn't have:

- Scope and tripod

- Sight settings for sitting and prone

- Ability to see .224 holes at 200

- Enough flexibility to "fall" into sitting position

Mistakes:

- Lack of sight settings

- Clearing FTF rather than calling an alibi during rapid fire  (40 (potential) points, but training is hard to overcome))

- Cross firing (another 30 points (my also first-time buddy appreciated the help))

I WILL be more prepared for the next match (if the rain ever stops).

Eddie

P.S.  Yes, I wish I had taken this up decades ago.

Shhhhh!



Actually, I just want two things to happen:

1. I want those that want to shoot and feel they're not equipt for it to know that they actually are. You NEED a rifle and 2 mags.The most important piece of gear is the nut behind the buttplate.

Hell, show up with a desire to improve yourself and I'll let you use MY rifle and gear!

2. Maybe the ones that keep making excuses and are not going to shoot will just STFU and go away.(The'I'll start next year when I lose weight so my jacket fits better.' crowd.)



OK, OK, Truth is I've made enough money. The IRS is taxing me to death. I can't handle more than 3 groupies in one night anymore, so I just want to spread the product endorsements and groupies around.

Yes you can compete with less than ideal equipment.

I shot my first match with a borrowed mini-14. I had to aim 2 feet above the center of the target to hit center at 100 yards. I was using 55 grain fmj run of the mill ammo too. Out of a possible 400, I shot a 288 my first go. IIRC was a 40 round match.

Second time, same range, same type of match except I had my new AR-15A2 and 69 grain Sierra Handloads, came away with a 343 out of 400 that time. Can't recall how many X's.

Third and last time, a 319 out of 400. Had an ammo malfunction in rapid fire and only got off 8 rounds. No more ammo.

Spotting scope was a Trashco on a tripod.

It can be done, and done rather well.

EDIT: no glove, no sling and no mat did I have or use. Got my $165 Garand though.

Danny

Pic

I consider myself seasoned veteran.... Use CMP. There is no DCM.  That way if folks want to look up stuff they can get to it.  They probably won't get far with the old dcm.  Its been CMP long enough now, we just gotta start using it.

LS1Eddie

Hey-- one thing, you CAN get the sling too tight.  Tight that it cuts off the blood, raises a pulse beat, creates uneeded pain, bruises etc.... Just fyi.

Jeff

I'd like to squelch rumors that I'm a HighMaster. I am not.  I can turn in HM scores in each position.  Just never at the same time. But do aspire.  Career and Family come first right now, so shooting opportunities are far between now.  

I do however agree wholeheartedly that you don't need the high speed match gear to get out and compete.  The needs as Picollo says are pretty basic.  I shot my first match with a sporterized Enfield and Lyman sights that I needed a screwdriver to click adjustments with.  I couldn't even get all my shots off in Rapid fire.  But I loved it!  The AR makes things so much more friendly for beginners.  Many folk already have a rifle that is lightyears ahead of what I started with.  And the upgrades can be done easily and cheaply as time and budget allow.

I'll say that anyone with an iron sighted AR that is interested and not getting out there to at least give it a try is a big fat[size=5]CHICKEN[/size=5]!  

Too bad we can't add up all of our Xes over time. If that were the case, I could say I shot a perfect score, even though it took me 10 years to do it.

when you say just show up with a rifle and 2 mags , is there a certain rifle you need to have? in other words what rifles are not allowed? i am new to this and i just bought a Bushy 20 inch Vmatch. would this rifle be acceptible or not? i would like to get in volved in this kind of thing but dont know if i have the right rifle or even where to go to in my area to shoot these competitions. i live in east Texas, Tyler area, so if any of you know where close to me or how i could find out pleases let me know. if any of you live near hear and would like to get together sometime and share some of yer knowledge with a newbie i would be very interested.

Great post!!
I intend to enter some competitions for fun soon.  I will go out there with my stock CAV-15 16" and just shoot.  I will get slaughtered, but i dont care!  I hope there are some CMP's soon!

As long as your rifle has iron sights and is capable of holding 5 or 8 rounds in the magazine, that is essentially all you need. What you may want to do is to go to a match as an observer and see what all the kinds of rifles that are used in highpower.

To find a range, first try your state rifle association. Look up at the top of this forum and see where the topics are thumb tacked, it will be there.

Click on this link and go to the Texas section:


[url]www.odcmp.com/Clubs/List.htm[/url]

thanx for the info,however i just spent my $$$$ on the v match rifle and it has no iron sights on it at all. i did mount a 4x12 scope though and untill i can get another upper or better yet a whole nother rifle, is there any other type of competitions i would be allowed to use this particular set up in?

Normally, I shoot reduced (300 yard) Palma.

They allow scoped rifles, so I started out with my .30-06 Ruger w/ Leupold 2.5-8x scope. M-65 jacket, backpacking mat, handloaded ammo (first itme out: two rounds for sighting in--they landed in the 9 and 10 ring), military ammo can to carry my gear.

Since then, I got an AR, which has slowly been modified to DCM configuration (it still wears the chrome 1 in 9, but a match barrel is on order). I have a Creedmore jacket, glove, and stool. Still using the backpacking mat, and still using a $35 Russian spotting scope.

Originally Posted By bluecowdawg: thanx for the info,however i just spent my $$$$ on the v match rifle and it has no iron sights on it at all. i did mount a 4x12 scope though and untill i can get another upper or better yet a whole nother rifle, is there any other type of competitions i would be allowed to use this particular set up in?

 Most match directors will probably allow you to shoot alongside the match (not in competition) just to get the shooters.  As for shooting in competion, there's always long range or prone matches, especially when there is an rifle/any sight category.

 Hope this helps.

What Asa said. In the San Diego SBR&G club "reduced Palma" match, they will allow you to shoot scoped rifles with bipods. But technically scoped rifles can't win the match (although that did happen a couple of months ago, since the scoped rifle shooter did real well, and the runner up was the match director who was particularly gracious).

Asa hit the nail on the head.

Most match directors will let you shoot alongside just to take in another shooter.

My favorite case of this was a guy that showed up to a slow fire match with an old .45/70 Trapdoor Springfield!

BOOM!............................................................WHAP! (like a huge gob of spit hitting the sidewalk after a 17 story drop.)

That was pretty neat. He did pretty good with the old rifle,IIRC.

The NM course, we take (somewhat) seriously, but some of our club slow fire matches are pretty damned informal. Hell, sometimes at slowfire matches I see some ideas someone is trying out that are bordering on crackpot.

(Safe, of course, but crackpot!)

Just get out there and shoot!!!!!!

I started off shooting some informal 200 yd reduced matches with a 16" carbine and a 2x scope.  No jacket, no spotting scope, no mat, etc.  Screw the legalities of what rifle is legal and what rifle isn't, just bring whatever you own - and see if you like the sport.  Who cares if your scores won't "count"?  It's not like you're going to be breaking any records anyway.  I can't imagine very many people giving you a hassle.  

If you don't have a spotting scope or mat, I would bet someone will let you use theirs.  

I went to the CMP website list of match clubs, and it shows Longview, Lufkin, and Panola County, which is Carthage. I haven't heard anything about Longview and Lufkin having matches, but I think Carthage has full-course matches, and I think they even had a Regional match not long ago. I'd call them first, but the other two may be running matches for all I know.

I shoot at Carthage, and it's a 600 yd range.
Lufkin shoots a reduced course, and Longview kind of quit due to lack of interest.

We welcome anybody who wants to shoot at Carthage, and you can shoot the scoped rifle in "F" class.
Here's our web address:[url]http://www.epcgc.com/[/url]

What memories!  First time I went to Perry was for the JCG match.  I had my rifle, a hunk of dirty carpet that I had used for traction on a tractor, so it was dirty and hope.  When I saw that long green line, I figured ' I have no business here'  draw your ammo and live - I was terribly embarassed.  I hauled my junk, yep, it was junk, compared to all the others. I felt so inadequate. Was on the third relay.  The US flag went up and I figured ' what the hell - drove five hours'.  Was scored by a HM - correction, gentleman and enthusaitic shooter. What a guy.  I had such a grreat time.  When I die, and my life experiences pass before me - it'll be one of them.

Gold medal and some comments about getting some equipment.  

Good advice - go slow.  You truly need one thing - desire to shoot.

What a great thread, I just happened to have gone to my first match today.  I too felt terribly unprepared because I just showed up with a standard 20" A2 Bushy and 100 rds of Q3131A!! I had a blast.  I only shot 388 but I didn't care.  My coach fellow kept asking me about my gun and I just kept on saying "nope...plain as they come".  He asked free-floated? Nope. Aftermarket trigger? Nope.  faster twist? nope.  It was kinda funny.  He was an older gentleman and was really nice but he just couldn't get in his head that I had no idea what I was doing.  It was actually like a clinic so the guys they had me paired up with let me use their mat/scope and what not.  It was great though. I saw an ad at the club for the shoot so I signed up and they said bring ammo and a gun.  So I did.  I plan on just sticking with what I've got for now.  As plain as it is, it still out-shoots me.  it is definitely something I plan on trying again.  I think I can do better next time as I was just so nervous and clueless, I'm hoping to break 400 next time. [:D] I had only shot by Bushy at 200 yards once and that was BR so it was definitely different.  FUN FUN FUN though!!

Hey Don, I too used an old 50 cal ammo can to bring my stuff in!!  I kept kidding everyone that I'd left my bullseye super duper shooter at home along with my truckload of accesories and gear!![sniper2]

Talk about shit and fall back in it!

Here I go, trying to recruit a bunch of Newbies so that when the club bulletin shows where I place, I'm at least four or five from the bottom. HAH!

What happens? Talent shows up.

I feel like General Custer looking out and seeing MORE INDIANS!!!!!!!

My first match (100 reduced) Bm stock A2 "20, Lakecity ammo, cheap-o spotting scope and dillion mat, shot a 365-4x. Highpower kicks ass, It's like golf with noise. Hey Piccolo that last line in your post, is that from The Good The Bad The Ugly?

The line about General Custer is from the Bombardier. My father. During WW2 the tail gunner would see messers and FWs coming in from behind and holler, "Hey, General Custer, I see MORE INDIANS!"

My sig comes from the Wizard of OZ.

I was planning on going to my first match today but something (family) came up last minute.  I have a plain 20" bushy A2 and was planning on using that.  What ammo should I use?  I have only shot the Lake City xm193.  I also have a 16" bushy with a free floater but the iron sights seem inferior with the shorter radius.  Should I stick with the 20"?  Are the "DCM" bushy's that much better than my standard A2?  Is it worth saving up the $$ for?

Sorry for all of the questions.  But I just don't know what I am doing yet!!!

you're telling me I can go with what I got right now.  I'm getting kind of excited.  I figured I needed a jacket and all that too.  I have a colt 20" standard gi barrel.  I think they call it the sport target model.  whatever.  It's the one that the barrel is thinner under the handguards.  I've yet to try my q3131a but I've got 3-7/8" 5 round groups at 100 with hornady 75 bthp.  iron sights.  I know it's not that good. You're telling me I can show up with what I got and shoot and have fun.  Don't I need to know all the positions and how much you shoot and all that?  Well, I think I'll have to go.  When and where is the question?  How many rounds do I need?  can I use my sleeping bag as a shooting blanket?  I do have a sling.  Nylon.  I love that crack about it's like golf with a bunch of noise.  I love that.  You guys have pretty much got me convinced.  piccolo thanks for the encouragement.  I really want to do this now.  I'm from Milwaukee, wi and I'm an NRA member, should I just call them and find out where to go?

You should probably know the positions, course of fire, how much ammo to bring and how to use the sling.   If you dont know these, id show up as early as possible, someone will probably be willing to go over it with you.

i recently went to my first match.  was pretty nervous.  i got there real early.  didnt need to ask for help, just said i hadnt shot a match before and they set me up with someone who wanted to help.

As we were walking out to the firing line, my coach says " you got any gear?".   I say " ive got a rifle and ammo" (everyone else had jackets carts, stools etc)  he said "good thats all you need ".

i shot the match and did better than expected, thanks to good coaching.  

if you dont know much about these matches i would suggest reading some articles:  

http://www.njhighpowerrifle.com  click on "newbie stuff" on the left.  has some good info.

Thanks for an interesting and timely post! About 5 weeks ago I joined my state's NRA affiliated rifle and pistol club and range. This past Friday I aquired my first ever Eugene Stoner design inspired rifle: A stock XM15-E2S "Bushmaster". My interest is in entry-level high power match shoots. My immediate goals are To learn the basics of the match scene, To compete safely and not get DQ'd by the R.O., Have a good time and maybe volunteer to help facilitate an event or two, and, enjoy being reunited with a rifle design I have not been involved with since my Signal Corps days over two decades ago.
Your scores are all going to look better soon! I will be helping to fill out the bottom rungs for a year or two I'm sure :-)
P.S. : I was very suprised to see that the price of the Colt AR has come down almost to that of the Bushy. Both looked fine but the XM seemed to have a very slight edge in material and workmanship so I went for it.

Thanks for the sound advice.  I went to a CMP clinic last month at Camp Butner and shot a friends AR15.  He has been shooting hp for about 20 years now and he gave me the same advice.  I used his rifle, borrowed an old canvas USMC shooting jacket that was 2 sizes too small, and had a great time.  I shot better than I expected to, and I am now hooked.  

I did splurge on my rifle.  My buddy told me to start with a basic AR, maybe float the bbl to start with.  Shoot it until my scores no longer improved then order a better bbl.  Do a trigger job at some point.  My logic, flawed as it may be, was that it would be a better long term investment to order a rifle set up right to start with rather than upgrade later.  I guess the barrel may not jive with that theory, because I suppose I may wear out this barrel before I could outshoot a stock bbl.

Anyway, I had Frank White build me a service rifle with a ss Douglas.  I suppose that may have been overkill at this point.  I have my upper and should get my lower later this week.  I understand that the only way for me to improve my scores is to shoot... and  then shoot some more...and then more, etc.  I know I cant buy high scores.  I just saw this as a better long term investment.  Maybe my confidence in this rifle will help my mental game too.

Thanks for all of the great information all of you have posted here.  I am really looking forward to service rifle competition.

Originally Posted By x-trued:  I did splurge on my rifle.  My buddy told me to start with a basic AR, maybe float the bbl to start with.  Shoot it until my scores no longer improved then order a better bbl.  Do a trigger job at some point.  My logic, flawed as it may be, was that it would be a better long term investment to order a rifle set up right to start with rather than upgrade later.  I guess the barrel may not jive with that theory, because I suppose I may wear out this barrel before I could outshoot a stock bbl.

I actually disagree with your buddy and agree with you on this point.

Beginners benefit more than anyone else by having a rifle and ammo combo capable of High Master scores.  Removes those variables from the learning equation and makes the curve shallower.

Don't worry about burning the barrel before you can outshoot it.  Get used to the idea that in target shooting barrels are consumables just like bullets, powder, and primers.  You will burn it out sooner or later anyway, may as well get some good learning out of it.

All other factors aside....how much does the weight of the rifle affect your scores, etc? Especially shooting offhand...I would think a heavier m1a would be harder to get consistant scores compared to an AR just due to fatigue alone....anyone have thoughts on this?

Originally Posted By Whitesmoke: All other factors aside....how much does the weight of the rifle affect your scores, etc? Especially shooting offhand...I would think a heavier m1a would be harder to get consistant scores compared to an AR just due to fatigue alone....anyone have thoughts on this?

Well, since one is suposed to use bone support, not muscle, support for shooting weight makes not that much difference in fatigue.

I shoot a nearly 15 lb AR and a Model 70 that weighs 13 lbs.  To conserve energy, I don't lower them to the stool on every shot (let alone sit down on it like I still see some ole timers do).  I simply place the buttplate on the second coat buckle from the top down and hold the rifle (unloaded) with my left hand, muzzle pointing about 50 to 60 deg up.  When it comes time to load, I load as I bring the rifle horizontal.

Short of using a rifle stand to set the gun on between shots (illegal in HP), that's the best way to conserve energy that I know of.

Thanks for the info.....I've always had trouble being steady when shooting offhand with my scoped m1a. Last time out...I was shooting 14" plow disks offhand at about 330 yards and was having a bear of a time keeping steady. Easpecially after several shots. I guess this can probably be attributed to improper shooting position/support.  I realize...I also won't be using a scope in a match...but I would imagine the basics would be the same for both situations.

Are there any online sources/websites that show the proper shooting positions/stances and proper use of a sling? Thanks for all the info....

Originally Posted By Whitesmoke: Are there any online sources/websites that show the proper shooting positions/stances and proper use of a sling? Thanks for all the info....

Some pics on shooting positions

Using the M1907 leather sling

Using the M1 canvas sling