All the Mossberg 500's that were in the class failed during the first warm-up drills we shot. There were 2 Mossberg 930's; one ran like a champ, the other one was off and on, although I believe that may be due to the weapon being dirty/dry with some very light loads.

Half the class ran Remington 870's, they all ran like a champ. I loaned my old HK-marked Benelli M1 to one of the guys whose Mossberg crapped out, it ran flawlessly all day with every load that went through it. There was a Winchester 1300 Defender on the line, it ran just fine. ikickhippies ran a Remington Versa Max, it did well. One of the students had one of those Starship Troopers looking, UTAS UTS-15 bullpup pumpguns that holds an assload of shells in dual tubes.......it never ran worth a fart. I tried to diagnose it, but lost it when the owner stated he believed it was a problem with the "mousetrap".

I've seen every type of shotgun you can think of fail, just as with any weapon system. On pump shotguns (of any brand name), the majority of the problems I've seen were user error. On autoloaders, most problems are related to the ammunition, e.g., not "powerful" enough to properly cycle. But, I have seen shotguns from every company have legitimate mechanical malfunctions that had nothing to do with the operator or the ammo. This includes my beloved 870.

With that said, I have found the Remington 870 to be the most rugged and reliable combat shotgun on the market. I have not found a single issue with the Mossberg 590, either. The only reason that I put the 870 in front of the 590 is that I see WAAAY more 870's than I do 590's, probably a ratio of 15:1. For all I know, the 590 could be the better gun, but I don't see enough of them to accurately compare them to the 870. Years ago, I borrowed a 14" 590 while attending a week long Shotgun Instructor workshop; she ran like a champ and I aced the qual course with her.

I've yet to see a problem with the new Benelli M4, but I have had less than 10 of them come through my class. I'm contemplating buying a 14" model, if I do we'll see how she runs.

I'm a big fan of both the Browning BPS and the Ithaca 37. My first entry gun on SWAT was a 14" Ithaca 37, one of the old "slam fire" guns. Loved it, it's the shotgun I used when I went to the training to receive my Shotgun Instructor Certification class at GPSTC. The only drawbacks to the BPS and 37 (in my book) are the aforementioned difficulty in speedloading a round directly into the chamber, and the fact you have to have multiple tools to take them apart. As to the former, Michiguns Ltd offers a modification where they cut a loading port into the side of the receiver, so that you can load straight into the chamber on the first round. Pretty cool idea, although it does take away one of the strong point of both guns; the smaller number of openings in the receiver means decreased possibilities of foreign debris infiltration. Here's some info on the Michiguns Ltd mods: http://www.m-guns.com/rifles.php

If you are in the market for a Remington 870, check and see if there's a shop in your area that does a lot of LEO business and look for a trade-in Police model. That's the way to go, quite a few differences between the Police model and the standard or HD models. I'd rather have a used Police than a new HD. Alternately, you can "upgrade" your 870 to a Police, or have it done. My 12" 870 started as a beater "standard" model that was sent to Scattergun Tech. They chopped the tube, installed ghost ring sights and performed all the upgrades to Police model specs. If you don't wanna go that far, at least make sure that your lifter has a flex tab. If not, that's a cheap and easy part swap that you can do yourself.

Here's the differences between a Police and Express model:
• 870 Police shotguns go thru a special 23 station check list – ranging from visual inspection, functional testing, test firing, and final inspection.
• All Police shotguns are assembled in a “special build area” at the plant in Ilion, NY. This section is secured and serves only to build LE and Military shotguns, with the same factory personnel working at that assignment each shift.
• All parts that enter the “special build area” are visually inspected by hand to ensure top quality and functionality.
• Due to heavy recoil in buck and slug loads, all 870 Police guns have a longer magazine spring which ensures positive feed and function.
• A heavier sear spring is used to generate a reliable, positive trigger pull between 5 and 8 lbs.
• A heavier carrier dog spring is used to ensure when the carrier elevates the shell, it will be held there until the bolt can push it into the chamber. This ensures positive feeding when using heavier payload rounds.
• Police shotguns do not have an ISS (Integrated Safety System) which is a locking mechanism on the safety of commercial shotguns. This type of locking mechanism can cause delay to an officer who needs the weapon but does not have the appropriate key. LE shotguns have the standard, proven, cross bolt safety.
• The fore-end on the Express model is longer and not compatible with many police shotgun vehicle racks.
• The Police shotguns utilize the heavy duty SPEEDFEED Stocks and Fore-ends.
• The Express model will not allow for the addition of an extension tube without physical modification to the tube and barrel, which can nullify the warranty.
• The Express model has a BEAD BLAST BLUE finish while the Police models utilize either High Luster bluing or Parkerization.
• The Express model utilizes a synthetic trigger housing while the Police models use a compressed metal housing.
• The Police shotgun barrel is locked down with a “ball detent” system in conjunction with the magazine cap vs. a lesser grade “synthetic magazine spring retainer” lock down as used on the Express system.
• The receivers used in Police guns are “vibra honed” to smooth out rough finishes and remove burrs before parkerization or bluing.
• Police shotguns use machined ejectors and extractors, as opposed to powdered metal cast which are utilized on the Express models.

On the 2 Mossberg 500's that failed in the first 20rds during my last class, neither were due to user error. I attempted to run each gun myself......nuttin' doin'. On one of them, the shells would not feed from the tube. They just stayed there and refused to leave. When that happened, it would not function or fire a single round. On the other one, it would malfunction on the average of every 3 rounds or so. When the lifter/elevator would present the next round to the bolt to be fed into the chamber, they would either come up at an angle, or not high enough, or both. When then would happen, the bolt would catch the round at an angle and refuse to feed it. On both guns, we tried to run them with at least 4 different factory 2 3/4" birdshot loads, as well as high brass 00 buck and slugs.

Thanks for the wright up. Info from the field is always better than any other kind.

Thanks cmshoot! Always interesting to read experiences from heavy users.

Unfortunately it seems that I don't run my 500 anywhere NEAR hard enough. Granted, it's ONLY for defending inside of our home... but it wouldn't hurt to pick up an 870 as well.

Tools to take a M37 apart?  Nothing needs taking off but the barrel for cleaning.

We're a M37 family, dad, brothers, my sons, etc. (even my mom - when Dad died last summer Mom had be wipe/clean his guns and put them away except for "her" M37 16 ga.)

Really, take them apart?  I've had mine apart once since I got it in 1969.  My dad's has never been taken "apart" and he got it in 1953 and it has been hunted with in all kinds of weather, on all kinds of small game, upland birds, waterfowl and deer in 8 or 9 different states.  

No "old" guns in the class?  Shame.  Some of the old ones are still great guns (M12 Win., Auto 5, etc.)

How did most of the guns look?  Well maintained (cleaned/lubed) or dry and rusty in spots?

This ..........

  good info ...Thanks.

I've always like the 870 but prefer the M37/87.  I always recommend the 870 for support and accessory aftermarket options that the M37 lacks.

Awesome write up! I wish I knew this before I bought my 18" mossberg 500! Can anyone tell me what the difference is between the 500 and 590? Are there any obvious upgrades I can do to improve reliability? It shoots great but the side to side wobble when I twist the pump drives me nuts!

The shotguns in the class ran the gamut from freshly cleaned and lubed to filthy.

I carried an Ithaca 37 for several years on the SWAT Team. Not disassembling it for cleaning was NOT an option, as it would never pass inspection if I didn't. Nowadays, I definitely let my non-duty weapons go further between cleanings than I did back in my old Marine Corps or SWAT days, but I definitely give them a good cleaning from time-to-time, which includes disassembly.

I like oldies, also. I have a cutdown Winchester 1897 takedown 12ga that I've run for demos in several classes over the years. Made in 1903 and still going strong.

I have 2 Mossberg 500s. 1 is old as the hills and I don't clean it nearly as often as I should. It's my beater gun for duck and geese, but I use it for trap, too. The only issue I've had with it is that after 1000's of rounds without cleaning, the action can get sticky on cold mornings.


My other one is a 20 inch, parked, home defense gun. I've run it hard and it'll out shoot me any day. I properly maintain it and it's cleaned and lubed well. Proper maintenance makes a difference.

One of the problems that I've found with the 500, and probably the culprit in the 2 problems guns I had in my class, is that oftentimes (but not all the time), under heavy, extended use, the fit of the synthetic trigger assembly will wear and loosen up in the receiver, allowing the front of the trigger assembly to drop slightly lower than it's meant to.  When that happens, you will get the feeding issues I described above.  There are 2 fixes:  1. duct tape the front of the trigger assembly tight up into the gun (yeah, not what I wanna do on my combat gun, as much as I do love duct tape!), 2. replace the entire trigger assembly with a new one.

There's a reason that the military specified an all-metal trigger assembly on the 590A1, and this was the main reason.  The military was experiencing this after heavy use in some of their 590's.

At no point in time did I want folks to think that I said or meant to insinuate that all 500's are POS's............I just wanted to share some of my personal/professional observations.  I've never owned a 500, although I've shot a ton o' rounds out of 'em.  If y'all own 'em, you like 'em, they've given you good service, and you feel comfortable using 'em, press on!  It's not up to me to dictate what weapon systems you choose to employ.  Depending on what state you chose to inhabit, you probably have a wide selection of choices in what you can use.

I'll have to take a look at my HD gun. It has an ammo saddle on it that bolts through the frame that may prevent this. The metal trigger housing is actually in my Brownells wishlist. May have to bump it to the top. Interesting perspective. Thanks for writing it up.

The sidesaddle won't help.  I believe that the culprit is the fact that there is only 1 through pin (or bolt, if you have a sidesaddle) to retain the trigger assembly.  This allows for movement, that can eventually wear away the plastic and cause the trigger assembly to "sag".

I came home with a NIB 870 Police last week having sold my Benelli SN Tactical last year. I was able to take it out this past weekend. I was wearing a smile when it was over I can tell you that. I shot Federal 00 and Federal hydra-shok slugs after warming up with some trap loads.

Rock solid.

My second pump shotgun was a Remington 870 "Special Purpose" that my father gave me for Christmas when I was around 10. I shot it for many years, many thousands of rounds, mostly skeet and sporting clays, until I got my first 1897. I started using those for trap, skeet and sporting clays, then I started doing defensive drills with them. I've moved on to Mossbergs for most serious uses, but my many 1897s still have their uses. This is in the bottom of my duffel bag every time I go away with my wife:



In every shotgun class I've taken, I've used Mossy 590s. I've never had a hiccup, but as your classes have shown, anything mechanical can and will fail sometime. So far, my several 590s, including my factory 14" SBS have served me well and I find that with the open bottom, I can reload them faster than an 870.

I have a Mossy 20 gauge that I shot for almost a decade that developed this problem. IIRC the pins on the elevator body that hold it in the receiver were dirty and had crud imbedded in them.  A thorough cleaning and it's run like a champ since.

Not saying that this is what caused the problem in this particular gun. Your theory about the plastic trigger guard assembly sounds pretty convincing.

Nice!  The '97 Takedown is still one of my favorites. Always reminds me of the opening scenes in "Bullitt".

Do you have a thread somewhere on defensive shotgun equipment such as your recommended accessories, ammo, sights, sling, etc....?   I just got my 870 Police Magnum back and at the least I would like to upgrade from the simple bead front sight.

i snagged a Mossberg 500 a few years back with with some extras.  i didnt know much then, and i got such a good deal on it, i didn't take the best care of it.  i didn't know how, and i tought it to be replaceable for the price i got it for.  over the last ten years ive drug that poor gun though hell and its never failed.  some of the other guns ive accumulated since then have just been trying to live up to the Mossy's legacy.  there is one, one that has left me feeling so frustraited that i could never, in good conscience, reccomend.

the Browning BPS...

all this shotgun has done since i purchaced it six years ago, is jam and rust.  ive had smiths and browning themselves look at it with no luck.  ive even retreated it to try to slow the corrosion, but when it was prepped i was informed that some of the corrosion was soo deep already that dipping it probably would not help.  and it didnt.  cold blue; hot blue; nothing can help it.  and if it looking poorly wasnt enough, half the rounds i fire out of it get stuck in the chamber.  short story, never buy a BPS, nomatter how "good" of a deal you think you're getting.

you should start seeing vepr 12s in your class soon

What is your opinion of the Moss 930 SPX?

Since I like my six 1897's so much I decided to try the other "real" Winchester riot gun, the Model 12. Not that some newer guns aren't good, or better in some respects, but these old guns were made in another time with a different attitude. Real hand fitting, polished blue without all the machining marks so common in today's guns, and walnut stocks. Real walnut, not the all too common "walnut stained" stocks of today.

Anyway, I've been on the hunt for an affordable Model 12 that had already been cut down for a few years now with no luck. Now, all of the sudden, I run into them everywhere. I picked up a beautiful 30" full choke takedown for $320 at a gunshow, but it's staying that way. I refuse to be the one that chops an original quality shotgun like that. Too many have been butchered already so this will stay the way it is and I'll use it next year for pheasant hunting. Even though I wanted a riot gun donor, this was just too good of a deal to pass up.

Then I saw another 12ga Model 12 on the "bargain rack" at another show mixed in with old Stevens 520's and cheaper shotguns like that. It was a longer barrelled full choke model at some point someone chopped back to around 25" and installed a Polychoke on it. I got it for $340 shipped to my C&R FFL, since I already spent my cash on a nice Colt New Service in .45 Colt I ran into.

So soon I will have to make another Lauan and foam bottom for my duffel bag so my Model 12 Takedown Riot Gun can come with me on my romantic weekends with my wife. Actually, I might make the bases so they stack so she can have one, too. She likes having a shotgun loaded with 00 Buck leaning against the wall next to the bed in our hotel rooms. I'm a lucky guy.

This is what it looks like now:


And this is what it's going to look like with an 18-1/2" barrel. I know the original Winchester factory Riot Guns were 20" but I'm more concerned with concealment that making a copy:

She is a beauty.

I had a 870 and then got a 590a1 then sold the 870 to buy another 590a1, didnt make sense to have two different systems. I rather have the same platform.

What has been your experience with the FN SLP? I also have an M1 of similar vintage and it is like a trusty old friend.

I used to own a Mossberg 500 Persuader, my first shotgun actually, and after having mechanical issues with it along with some other things about it that I didn't like upgraded to the 870 Tactical. The big problem I had with my 500 was that after firing one or two rounds the safety would creep back just enough to lock up the trigger. This issue was fixed after purchasing an aftermarket metal safety from Brownell's however and I never had that problem again. The 500 I bought also had an 8 round magazine tube and a 20" barrel. While I enjoyed this extra mag capacity I didn't like how it made it top heavy when fully loaded. The one thing that annoyed me the most about the 500 though was dissasembly and the ever present "rattle."

Between the 870 and the 500, I'd definitely go with the 870, although I wouldn't mind a Vepr 12 or Benelli either.

Excellent right up.

Most of my students also run 870s but I've been seeing more 590s in class. I really do like some of the features on 590s especially the placement of the tang safety.

The only guns I've seen shit the bed recently have been Remington 887s. ABSOLUTE GARBAGE. The only two I've ever seen both stopped feeding within the first 30 minutes of shooting.

Of course auto-loaders frequently stop running but it's usually the ammo, as you mentioned.

Other than emergency reloading procedures, 870s and 590s run pretty neck-and-neck in class.

Thanks,

Do you have a detailed breakdown on the differences between the Mossberg 500 and 590 like you have for the Express and Police models?

From my research elsewhere....... 590 comes standard with metal trigger assembly, mil spec finish (park'd or marinecoat), and a sling attachment at the head of mag tube. Haven't been able to determine if they come with metal safeties.

Once I get my rifle situated, ill be ordering a metal safety and trigger housing for my 500. I would like to think theres more to it seeing how 590s are 700 at my LGS but the 500s are between 3-400 depending how its equipped. The safety and trigger assembly can be had for ~150 shipping included.

Interesting about the 930's. Of the ones that you've seen used in past classes, do they seem to hold up well?

On the shotgun topic - I have a 14" 590A1, and have been thinking about a side saddle for some more rounds available without having to stuff shells in your pockets.

Thoughts on the side saddles? Do they affect the gun's performance or reliability in any way? Are they all created equal?

wow, this zombie thread came back to life.  

I didn't notice the date on it as I read through it.  I found a post I agreed with 100% and was going to quote it.  It was my own 2013 post with a different avatar.

I shoot an 870 for work.  They're pretty solid but I never liked the lifter set up when loading.   I have bad memories with my old 1100 20 gage with shells not catching upon loading in the tube mag and jamming behind the lifter.   The Ithaca with it's nice setup takes shells easily.  I do have to say my old model 87 Ithaca did get enough oil and dirt in the shell stops controlling the magazine tube that the gun did spit out a tube full of shells on the ground.   It took me a few minutes to diagnose the issue.  Some serious toothbrushing fixed the problem.  

I am torn between the 37 and the 870.   I'd try a Benelli auto if I could get one with a 12.5" lop.

Zombie Resurrection post...







My BPS is a fantastic shotgun. As is the Winchester 1300, Remington 870, and FN SLP.


The Kel-Tec is still on the fence but it simply is a different manual of arms to use. Once I get that down I plan on putting it through its paces.

Handled a 590 today. Did not have a metal safety.

No the Mossbergs don't come with the metal safety.

They SHOULD, but they don't...

Replacing it with a metal one should be the first change made.

BIGGER_HAMMER

Forgot I posted this here!  Sorry to the folks that asked questions.

I'm writing a lesson plan on setting up a Defensive Shotgun, although there's an excellent one stickied/pinned in the Shotgun Forum here on this site.

A1 models do, standard 590's come with polymer safeties and trigger plates. The 500 MILS and the 590A1 are milspec guns.

I have 2 main issues with the 37. These are the prong shape of the shell lifter is prone to bending and two that the ejected shell has to bypass the magazine to feed next round. Ive had to clear FTE stoppages in a 37 and it's a bitch. No access to chamber, un-extracted case partially in chamber and new round on the lifter means shotgun is dead in the water till you clear it. Bad extractor or a bent shell lifter will dick up function 100%. I also have had problems with 870's throwing shell latches and causing feeding issues. If a latch comes loose an twists slightly in the receiver the shells will not properly release from magazine. I have one 870 that has been restaked 3 times and just threw the latch again last september. I use a 590A1 for defensive purposes and like the design better but the one gun I have never had malfs with is an old High Standard K120 Riot.

I've got an old Winchester 1200.  It was my first shotgun I got it in Jr High I think.  This shotgun is probably 40ish years old now?  THey stopped making it over a decade before I was born haha.  

I don't really hunt birds anymore but I had the barrel turned down to 18.5 inches and installed a 2 shot mag extension which is basically even with the end of the barrel.  I use it as my competition shotgun now.  

I'd imagine you don't ever see those in your classes but it's good to hear the 1300 made a good showing.

When I bought a 500, the first 2 things I did before shooting it were replace the plastic trigger pack and safety with metal ones. I was issued a 500 in the military with the above upgrades, never had an issue with it and don't expect I will with this one.