Last night, I was reading an article in Surefire's magazine about "short-sticking" a shotgun, as supposedly taught by Rob Haught, and had a question.

(Let me preface by saying I have no formal shotgun training.  All of my formal training, be it military or civilian, has been handgun and carbine.  I am definitely no shotgun expert, and realizing that, I am interested in getting to know the system better.  Unfortunately, my financial situation doesn't currently allow me to seek any formal training.)

Anyways, the article talks about Mr. Haught's "push-pull" method, which I understand and in which I can see the value.  I have no doubt it's effective and will do what I can to implement it into my own training time.  The article's author then goes on to talk about "short-sticking" the shotgun in order to make the gun take up less space, making it much more manueverable in a CQB environment.  Basically, "short-sticking" involves turning the gun outward, so that the ejection port is facing skyward and placing the stock of the gun over the arm, bringing the ejection port close to the shooter's ear.  I can also see how this would be effective and would really make the gun manueverable in tight spaces.

But, I was wondering, how much does it recoil when held like that?  The reason I ask is I have a Remington 870 US Secret Service model, which is a 14" barrelled SBS, equipped with ghost ring sights.  When I placed the gun over my arm, it brought the rear sight REALLY close to my cheek, and causes me to be concerned that, under recoil, could easily rip into my skin.

Is this something about which I should worry?  Is the recoil so minimal, or directed in such a manner, that the sights won't hit me?  OR, should I instead abandon the USSS and switch over to my other 870, a non-ghost ring sighted 14" SBS?

Thanks in advance.

Its also often referred to as Short Stocking.  Generally used with rifle and shotguns with fixed longer stocks like the M16A2.

You having a SBS, you already have a shorter more compact weapon.  The shorter length you would gain would be offset by the loss of accuracy and control.  I suggest you just shoot your SBS normally.

Robs a big guy and a master of the push pull method. He could probably shoot a 10gauge that way with no problem.

I on the otherhand am a skinney little guy and if i tried short stocking an 870 i would end up with a fat lip. or busted teeth. Doing it with an M4 on burst has resulted in the BUIS hitting me in the mouth before.

Yeah, I don't see there being that much of an advantage gained using this method, but I like to at least try to expose myself to as many tools in the toolbox as I can.  You never know what works best until you've tried them all, right?  It would have to be a REALLY cramped space for a 14" bbl to be too long.

double tap

This is a means of moving in tight spaces (hallways) and still getting good hits on target. It is a tactic that needs practice as you are point shooting with the shotgun due to your sights being rotated away from the top of the barrel.

Some of the ghetto crackerbox houses have limited room to move around

It is a tool for the toolbox, good stuff when needed.

Yeah, I understand the usefulness of the technique and the parameters in which it is to be used.  The biggest concern I have is the possibility of the ghst ring sights ripping my cheek open.  Does anybody have any experience using the technique with a ghost ring sight equipped gun?  i'm hesitant to try it if its going to result in an ER visit and further damage to my less than beautiful smile.

Well that depends on you.

We can't tell you how well its going to work for you.  We can't determine how strong you are, how well you will hold the shotgun and so on over the internet.

So try it, and get someone to put the video on youtube should you lacerate your face.  

I would suggest, finding an instructor in person who can show you how to do it.  Getting instruction can be different then reading a book.  An instructor will be able to ensure you use correct form.

I've been fortunate to have shot with Rob a number of times to include some mini-sessions of shotgun instruction. For those of you who don't know, Rob goes to Quantico to teach the FBI to include their HRT guys. As some would say, "that's a clue."  I've seen him demonstrate this technique and have tried it myself. If you haven't given it adequate practice, I would encourage you not to dismiss it out of hand merely on theory.

Regarding a previous comment about length and advantage vs a handgun, demo this to yourself. Take your pistol of choice and extend it in a normal firing stance and note the distance the pistol is from you. Next take a shotgun and utilize Rob's technique, ie rotate it about it's long axis inboard 90 degrees with the stock over your shoulder extending back to shorten the length. I think you'll find that the shotgun protrudes less than your pistol. With a 14" barrel shotgun it's a no brainer.

I don't know about you, but if I have to deal with bandits, I'd rather engage them with "the hammer of Thor" than a pistol.

By utilizing Rob's push-pull technique, recoil and fear of bonking your beak should not be an issue.

I've seen Rob engage plates at realistic distances with this exact technique and he was blindingly fast with hits each and every time. You can even fire a 12 Ga standing on one foot with this technique, that's how effective it is with recoil management.

I agree with a previous poster's statement about getting instruction from a legitimate instructor. I do know that Rob occasionally teaches open enrollment courses. I say it would be money well spent.

Wondered about that myself.  Hadn't tried it yet, but I reckon I ought to.  I'm not sure I even understand the push-pull thing, yet.

Trying to describe any technique in writing vs. a verbal explanation accompanied by a demonstration with practice comes in a distant third at best.

Here's the Cliff Notes version. Once again, I would not consider this a substitute for the real deal, i.e. instruction from Rob himself.

Grasp the fore end with the index finger pointing forward and along the length of the fore end. This is the "push" portion. Grasp with the firing hand and "pull" with that. It's easier to start out with the shotgun in a "normal" positon i.e. the sights or bead on top and learn this aspect of the technique first. Contrary to most shotgun instruction, you don't have to pull the butt snug into your shoulder. You can actually have a gap between the buttstock and your shoulder. Shortly before firing, "stretch" the shotgun by pushing on the fore end and pulling with the firing hand. Start out with cheap target loads so you can practice without breaking the bank firing 00 Buck or slugs.

Once you get a feel for this, roll the shotgun inboard 90 degrees and bring the butt over your shoulder. Some of you might find that a pistol grip stock is easier on your wrist when this position is utilized. You won't use the sights or bead the way you did when it was in a normal position, but for close targets you will get hits with just a little practice.

I'm sure I've missed something, but that's the gist of it. Bear in mind, that if you take a class from Rob, you'll learn far more than just this and it will be from a true master of this weapon and a helluva guy.

Trust me, I fully understand that reading about something in a magazine or on the interwebs is no substitute for formal instruction.  Unfortunately, my financial situation has changed drastically in the last few years (think going from $50k/ year to $20k/year).

I'll probably just give it a try with the bead sight gun first and then go on from there.  And, one day, I'll get back to a better place and will be able to take classes again.  (I'm thinking about budgeting for a spring Combat Focus Shooting class w/ Rob Pincus.)

Thanks for the feedback, guys.  I appreciate it.

anyone have video of this?

I was able to get to the range today and try out this technique.  To say I'm impressed would be an understatement.

I took both of my 870's and a good supply of low recoil 00 Buck and slugs.  Another purpose of the range trip was to pattern the guns with some new ammo (Fed LE132 00Buck).  I ended up shooting about 100 rounds.  The ammo selection included the aforementioned LE132_00, Fed LE 127 RS, Fed LEB127LRS, Rem LE Reduced Recoil 9P 00B, Rem Express LR 9P 00B, Rem Exp LR slugs, and Win Ranger LR slugs.

I shot both of them using the push/pull technique, which made them really controllable.

I then decided to try the "short-sticking" technique, using the bead-sighted gun first.  That sucker hardly moved!  Since it has a 14" bbl, there was a nice little flash at the end of the muzzle, but it wasn't bad at all.  After a dozen or so rounds, I switched to the 870 USSS gun and was just as impressed!  One thing I noticed was my non-dominant shoulder was feeling the recoil, but I think that's mostly because it was doing something new and needed to get used to it.  After about 5 minutes of not shooting, my shoulder was as fine as it was before shooting.

Will I ever have a need to use this technique?  Probably not, but it's nice to know that it works and that it's there in the toolbox, should I ever need it.

I also saw the article mentioned.  I found it interesting that the author of the article was completely bladed at 90 degrees from the target.

I have attended Rob's 2 day shotgun course through 10 8 Consulting in Chino, Ca.  Rob is a fantastic instructor and VERY skilled with an 870.  He was using a 14"  SBS throughout the course.  Rob had us using a rather minimally bladed stance for the most part.

It's a interesting tool to have in the toolbox and definately worth trying and seeing how it works for you.

I was going to say, but the OP has already tried the technique out, but try it with low base birdshot and then move up to full power.  You have a surprising amount of
control with the push pull method.

I see two problems (as a retired career long professional trainer LE).

Many shooters have "issues" with shotguns and recoil, to the point reduced recoil slugs and buck shot were marketed.  That technique will enhance "recoil sensitivity" issues in shooters.

Recoil operated semi-auto shotguns (Benelli for example) can have functioning issues if allowed to recoil freely (not held firmly such as shouldered).  A technique needs to be universal to the particular platform, in this case shotguns.  If someone "trained" in this method for a pump, then changes to a semi-auto, the method can lose "weapon reliability".  KISS works for weapon platforms that may have multiple weapon operating systems (pump, recoils operated, gas operated).

I see benefit to HSLD users.  However, with line troops who train 3 or 4 times a year there can be issues!

That's all I've ever known it as.


Anyhow, if you're short stocking, it generally means you are in a confined area, and IME, when shooting as such, you don't raise teh weapon up to your eye level, as much as point shoot.  More accurate than some folks might think.

A really great way to see this, beside live fire, is if you ahve a laser or light attached.  Point it, then turn on your light/laser and see where you are.

I definitely endorse these techniques (push/pull - also known as 'stretching' the shotgun, and the short stocking). I used it in confined areas during many drug raids, and my unit would practice it live fire on the range. The contributions and findings already posted here are accurate. It is an extreme Close Quarter technique so point shooting without sight alignment is correct.

When I teach it I have the students progress as follows:
  Initial shooting using their existing shotgun hold and mount.
  I tweak their stances.
  Adding the push/pull (stretch) while shooting from a 'standard' position.
  Applying the stretch without mounting the shotgun to the shoulder. (this allows the shooter to test the control they have over the shotgun)
  Then they shoot at very close range using the 'Short Stock' with the 'stretch'. (under one on one instructor scrutiny)
  I generally finish off with moving & shooting, Short Stocked & Stretched.

Stony makes some excellent points. I took Rob Haught's shotgun class a couple of years ago after reading about his technique and seeing a short video of him working an 870 about as fast as exhibition shooters work a Benelli. In person I got to see him work it that fast again, while putting load after load of buckshot all into the same hand sized pattern. Then I got to learn how.

As far as the ghost ring issue, the push-pull enables you to index the gun wherever you need to in order to shoot in the conditions you're facing, including keeping your rear sight a safe and constant distance from your face.

I recommend the class without reservation.

On a somewhat related note, am I the only who finds it totally akward with a conventional stock?

Every trainer I have ever seen demonstrating short sticking had a conventional stock and did not seem to have any problems. However, when I try to do it with one of my few conventional stock 870s it just feels wrong. With my IV-S equipped 870s it feels alright. Am I doing something wrong?

I've seen this article as well, and I have tried it with my AR15 and my AKSU. Granted, these have a lot less recoil than a 12 gauge, but the technique works.