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 Lumpy196
#1 with a bullet
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Joined: Aug 2002  AZ, USA
 Posts: 29797 Feedback: 100% (33) Link To This Post |
Posted: 9/7/2007 11:12:25 AM
You reached a wise conclusion. |
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Posted: 9/11/2007 5:38:52 AM
If you can only own one long gun then all the reasons you listed above are a very good reason for owning a shotgun. When I lived in the midwest my 870 was my go to gun for evereything. Home defense, trap shooting, small game hunting, deer hunting. But realisticly i was using 3 different brls and several different loads to achieve that versitality. A police officer or soldier using a shotgun is going to be limited to one or two different loads. Usually buckshot and slugs or just buckshot. Door breaching and less lethal will usually have shotguns dedicated to that task with policies that state those shotguns are never loaded with standard ammo. I would not feel unarmed with an 870. Anyone who choses to use one for social purposes should get training on them. But its not the first weapon i would pick for very many LE or military scenarios. |
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Posted: 9/11/2007 8:55:19 AM
[Last Edit: 9/11/2007 8:56:49 AM by 444]
Ditto I have trained a little bit. I took Frontsight four day defensive shotgun, I took Gunsite's 260 (Louis Awerbuck was the rangemaster), and I took Frontsight's two day shotgun skill builder (and got a Distinguished Graduate certificate). I own two registered short barreled shotguns along with a couple other 870s. I have even seen a few people shot with shotguns over the years and have taken a whitetail deer with a slug a couple years ago. I much prefer the carbine and that's what I would grab if I needed to grab something. |
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Bama-Shooter
You do your thing. I'll do mine.
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Joined: Apr 2004 AL, USA
Posts: 28868 Feedback: 100% (52) Link To This Post |
Posted: 9/11/2007 9:03:45 AM
[Last Edit: 9/11/2007 9:06:01 AM by Bama-Shooter]
Just to share some video. Yes there are some big boys in the group but some of us look presentable.
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Posted: 9/12/2007 8:46:37 PM
This comment struck me as kind of odd.Any reason it has to be American made?I have a Tromix/Saiga 12 and it runs like a champ.I have 700+ rounds through this thing in just the last 2 months with all kinds of ammo. I too am interested in shotgun training since I have a few but like others have said there doesn't seem to be many classes available. |
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doubleclaw
Weapon of Precision Destruction...
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Joined: Jan 2004 MS, USA
Posts: 1354 Feedback: 100% (58) Link To This Post |
Posted: 9/19/2007 11:32:48 AM
[Last Edit: 9/19/2007 11:42:12 AM by doubleclaw]
Simple solutions for simple problems: I keep my slugs loaded upside down on my sidesaddle, so that I can tell which load is which in low light. If I were to go with specialty loads, I would probably invest in a Speedfeed stock with the shell holders; that way the specialty loads would be handy, but placed well away from the standard loads. The idea that a carbine is superior in all respects to a shotgun for home defense is a bit absolutist, but to each his own. I will say that if your HD situation ever makes it to a courtroom, the bloodsucking lawyers will circle like sharks around the fact that you used an "evil assault babykiller machinegun rifle" to deal with the threat, rather than a trusty old shotgun. I like my carbine, but that's the entire point; I wouldn't want to use the thing in a HD shooting just to have it confiscated as "evidence" when I could sacrifice a shotgun that only cost me 1/5th as much. |
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mcnielsen
Badges? We don't need no stinking Badges!!!
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Joined: Mar 2001 MN, USA
Posts: 7953 Feedback: 100% (78) Link To This Post |
Posted: 9/19/2007 1:35:52 PM
The point of this thread that some people miss is: What if you do not have a carbine or pistol available to you?
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Posted: 9/19/2007 1:48:58 PM
I respect your opinion but humbly disagree, nothing survives on the other end of my Benelli M1S90 down a hallway. |
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chewbacca
They ARE watching YOU
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Joined: May 2004 AZ, USA
Posts: 5200 Feedback: 100% (74) Link To This Post |
Posted: 9/19/2007 2:18:26 PM
The shotgun definately has its place.
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doubleclaw
Weapon of Precision Destruction...
Team Member
Joined: Jan 2004 MS, USA
Posts: 1359 Feedback: 100% (58) Link To This Post |
Posted: 9/21/2007 9:59:16 AM
Especially for those workin' stiffs out there who may not be able to afford a Colt or LMT with all the tactical bells and whistles, but CAN afford a used 12 gauge. Shotguns have the additional advantage of being dirt cheap compared to carbines, but they remain an effective platform despite their low cost. |
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RedFalconBill
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Joined: Mar 2005 PA, USA
Posts: 661 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 12/12/2007 2:47:28 PM
Bump
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innocent_bystander
Soulless
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Joined: Nov 2000 AZ, USA
Posts: 11040 Feedback: 100% (11) Link To This Post |
Posted: 12/12/2007 2:55:29 PM
[Last Edit: 12/12/2007 2:57:25 PM by innocent_bystander]
Tucson PD took an interesting approach and only allow shotguns to use Polyshok slugs as the lethal round. They pretty much made them into short range, inaccurate, slow to fire rifles but with no over penetration concerns.
www.polyshok.com www.polyshok.com/journal_of_forensic_sciences.htm |
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Posted: 12/12/2007 4:47:40 PM
I wouldnt call them innaccurate. I remember a one hole group in American Cop Magazine and Ive been satisified with them in my shotguns.
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Posted: 12/24/2007 7:18:10 PM
Hey doesn't the Saiga 12 (converted of coarse =) nullify some of the reloading points in this forum? I love my saiga 12, but more for SHTF reasons
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Posted: 7/9/2008 11:40:19 PM
ARs are cool, but given a choice when having to 'STOP' an entruder in their tracks in my hallway, that's bent on taking me or mine out, my Benelli M1 tactical 12 ga. with buck shot would be my first choice by a looong margin. I've taken shotgun courses, rifle courses, and taught handgun courses. The shotgun is the only one that dishes out enough mass destruction over enough square inches of flesh, even if not into vitals, to put an abrupt end to the fight. Managing the recoil is the key, which is why low recoiling defense loads are popular with those that use them for a living.
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Bigger_Hammer
It's HAMMER Time!
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Joined: Sep 2004 TX, USA
Posts: 3689 Feedback: 100% (224) Link To This Post |
Posted: 7/10/2008 2:06:55 AM
[Last Edit: 7/10/2008 2:11:32 AM by Bigger_Hammer]
12 gauge 00 Buck...
It positively absolutely needs to be Stopped - Right Then & Right There! I like the shotgun for DEFENSE for the reasons stated, but especially for the terminal results that it delivers. When you want and need a bad guy Down & OUT in one shot then and there, well there is nothing this side of a 105 High Explosive I'd rather have than a plain 12 guage 00 buckshot. People make hay of the idea that a shotgun will be flooding the area with stray pellets as the reason a pistol or AR is a much better choice, but if you have ever seen the statistics of Police Shootings, (trained officers who have to qualify and practice probably more than 95% of the folks here) miss with more than 1/2 their shots. Where do those missed pistol and rifle rounds go and are they as likely to penetrate as Buck? (Old Painless's Box O' Truth showed that buckshot penetrated fewer panels of sheetrock than either 5.56 or pistol rounds). That sounds like maximum stopping power with minimized risk to others. BIGGER_HAMMER  Edited to ad - I think Joe Horn (Houstonian who blasted two burglers and was No Billed (not charged) by the grand jury) had used an AK or AR, Me thinks that he / we would not have had such a "good outcome" in his legal matters |
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Posted: 7/10/2008 12:09:57 PM
[Last Edit: 7/10/2008 12:11:43 PM by 444]
Old thread, but I guess the same subjects are discussed endlessly on internet gun boards, so why not keep the old thread going ?
I have personally seen more than one person shot with shotguns and rifles (not both on the same person) and that is ONE of the reasons I chose a carbine over a shotgun. If any of you have actually seen a person up close and personal that have been shot with a rifle (pretty much ANY rifle) and seen the massive wound created, I think you will agree with me. |
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Posted: 8/27/2008 8:28:01 PM
I'll see you there! |
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Posted: 9/13/2008 7:54:52 AM
I have a Saiga w/10 rd mag, I dont require much training for what its designed to do. |
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Posted: 4/30/2009 2:42:54 PM
Lets not forget the ability to further shotgun distances with Vang Comp barrels or Flite Control rounds.
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a43mranger
Member
Team Member
Joined: Apr 2007 TX, USA
Posts: 56 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post |
Posted: 5/24/2009 12:00:17 PM
A shot gun is one of the most virsital weapons you can own. slug buck bird shot, many uses same gun. With a 3 barrells that dont weight very much at all you can shoot birds out the sky, and rifled barrel for close range deer, hogs, etc. and a 18.5 inch barrel for close range self defense. When the shtf are you going to give up you positon just to pop somebody 3 hundred yards out, no under a hundered and coming my way yes. Ambush what till i can see the whites of the eye and blast of buck shot will take care of them.
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Posted: 6/27/2009 4:50:39 AM
I must be behind, I shoot at, and hit deer with slugs through the same barrel I use for birds.
Lets not all forget that during WWI the shotgun was so effective that the Germans made a move to have it banned from warfare under the Hague Convention. I stole this from another forum: A lengthy treatment of the subject from lawofwar.org:
On 19 September 1918, the Government of Switzerland, representing German interests in the United States, presented to the U.S. Secretary of State a cablegram received by the Swiss Foreign Office containing the following diplomatic protest by the Government of Germany: "The German Government protests against the use of shotguns by the American Army and calls attention to the fact that according to the law of war (Kriegsrecht) every [U.S.] prisoner [of war] found to have in his possession such guns or ammunition belonging thereto forfeits his life. This protest is based upon article 23(e) of the Hague convention [sic] respecting the laws and customs of war on land. Reply by cable is required before October 1, 1918." The German protest was precipitated in part by the capture in the Baccarat Sector (Lorraine) of France, on 21 July 1918, of a U.S. soldier from the 307th Infantry Regiment, 154th Infantry Brigade, 77th Division, AEF, who was armed with a 12-gauge Winchester Model 97 repeating trench (shot) gun, and a second, similarly-armed AEF soldier from the 6th Infantry Regiment, 10th Infantry Brigade, 5th Division, on 11 September 1918 in the Villers-en-Haye Sector. Each presumably possessed issue ammunition, which was the Winchester "Repeater" shell, containing nine No. 00 buckshot. The German protest was forwarded by the Department of State to the War Department, which sought the advice of The Judge Advocate General of the Army. Brigadier General Samuel T. Ansell, Acting Judge Advocate General, responded by lengthy memorandum dated 26 September 1918. Addressing the German protest, General Ansell stated: Article 23(e) simply calls for comparison between the injury or suffering caused and the necessities of warfare. It is legitimate to kill the enemy and as many of them, and as quickly, as possible . . . . It is to be condemned only when it wounds, or does not kill immediately, in such a way as to produce suffering that has no reasonable relation to the killing or placing the man out of action for an effective period. The shotgun, although an ancient weapon, finds its class or analogy, as to purpose and effect, in many modern weapons. The dispersion of the shotgun [pellets] . . . is adapted to the necessary purpose of putting out of action more than one of the charging enemy with each shot of the gun; and in this respect it is exactly analogous to shrapnel shell discharging a multitude of small [fragments] or a machine gun discharging a spray of . . . bullets. The diameter of the bullet is scarcely greater than that of a rifle or machine gun. The weight of it is very much less. And, in both size and weight, it is less than the . . . [fragments] of a shrapnel shell . . . . Obviously a pellet the size of a .32-caliber bullet, weighing only enough to be effective at short ranges, does not exceed the limit necessary for putting a man immediately hors de combat. The only instances even where a shotgun projectile causes more injury to any one enemy soldier than would a hit by a rifle bullet are instances where the enemy soldier has approached so close to the shooter that he is struck by more than one of the nine . . . [No. 00 buckshot projectiles] contained in the cartridge. This, like the effect of the dispersing of . . . [fragments] from a shrapnel shell, is permissible either in behalf of greater effectiveness or as an unavoidable incident of the use of small scattering projectiles for the nec- essary purpose of increasing [the] likelihood of killing a number of enemies. General Ansell concluded his memorandum with the statement that "The protest is without legal merit." Acting Secretary of War Benedict Crowell endorsed General Ansell’s memorandum of law and forwarded it to the Secretary of State that same day. Secretary of State Robert Lansing provided the following reply to the Government of Germany two days later: [T]he . . . provision of the Hague convention, cited in the protest, does not . . . forbid the use of this . . . weapon . . . . [I]n view of the history of the shotgun as a weapon of warfare, and in view of the well-known effects of its present use, and in the light of a comparison of it with other weapons approved in warfare, the shotgun . . . cannot be the subject of legitimate or reasonable protest. . . . . The Government of the United States notes the threat of the German Government to execute every prisoner of war found to have in his possession shotguns or shotgun ammunition. Inasmuch as the weapon is lawful and may be rightfully used, its use will not be abandoned by the American Army . . . [I]f the German Government should carry out its threat in a single instance, it will be the right and duty of the . . . United States to make such reprisals as will best protect the American forces, and notice is hereby given of the intention of the . . . United States to make such reprisals. World War I ended six weeks later, without reply by Germany to the United States response. There is no record of any subsequent capture by German forces of any U.S. soldier or marine armed with a shotgun or possessing shotgun ammunition, or of Germany carrying out its threat against the U.S. soldiers it captured earlier. |
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Posted: 7/1/2009 12:27:56 AM
I'm not being a troll, but I have a few comments about why some people don't get training with a shotgun.
I have been looking for someplace close (say within 4 hours drive) to take a defensive shotgun course. What I have found are several "tactical" shotgun courses (which don't interest me much), and a couple of "defensive" shotgun courses. The problem is that all of the "defensive" courses were the same as the "tactical" courses run by other schools, and have the same mindset and restrictions: 1. Must wear cargo style pants 2. 12ga shotguns only 3. Must have pistol, holster, and way to carry extra mags 4. Shotgun must have light and side saddle Myself (and several other people I know) are interested in some basic shotgun training, mainly being concerned with home defense in case of break-ins, etc. Therefore, we fully expect something to happen at the worst time (middle of the night), and don't anticipate having time to change from sleepwear to full ninja garb. Being a bit older, none of us wear tactical clothing, and don't want to buy any just to take a class. While we all own 12ga shotguns, one friend wanted to sign up his daughter for a defensive course (she just graduated college and was moving out of town for a new job). She had hunted for years with a 20ga 870, so he bought her a 20" barrel for use in the house. The school refused to allow someone in class with a 20ga shotgun. I live in NY state, where its a hassle to get a pistol license (why in the hell should I have to be fingerprinted to own a pistol? , buts thats another diatribe). Again, if I hear a noise in the middle fo the night I'm going to grab a shotgun, and I wouldn't be looking around for a pistol, holster, and spare mags. Requiring a pistol in NYS rules out a large portion of the populace. I have no problems with a requirement like that for a tactical course, but it shouldn't be part of a defensive class. While I'm putting a light on my shotgun, none of the others are interested in doing so. Also, I don't see an immediate need to put a side saddle on it. Its a lot of expense, and I'd rather wait and see what I learn in training before spending money on non-optimal gear. I am happy to report that I found a school teaching a true defensive shotgun course that doesn't require anything but a shotgun and ammunition, and it is within 75 miles of home. I plan to sign up for the next course in September, as do several friends and co-workers. |
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Posted: 7/1/2009 12:59:32 PM
The ninja garb comment made me chuckle.
It doesn't have that much to do with age though. I'm in my early 20s and all my "tactical gear" consists of the older style ALICE load bearing equipment (no big ass backpack though) Basically I just use the suspenders and pistol belt. I change what's on the belt depending on what I"m doing. When I carry my shotgun I put my shells in Carlisle pouches and each holds 6 shells. This is light, simple, and doesn't have thousands of straps, buckles, clasps and pouches to keep track of. It amazes me how much money people dump into gear. And imagine there was a time when people defended themselves and even killed enemies without all this extra shit hanging out all over looking "cool."  |
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Posted: 7/24/2009 2:41:36 PM
Train with and be proficient with any defensive weapon that you plan on or even could be forced to use for self defense. For what ever reason, your "go to gun" many not be available so you may have to fall back on something else. Just my two cents.
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