User Panel
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IA, USA
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Posted: 7/27/2009 1:34:41 AM EDT
[#1]
Agreed.
I'd much rather be decently effective with most guns, than immaculate with one. I'm also a firm believer in out-thinking your opponent. If you can out think your enemy, then a deficiency in weaponry won't seem as drastic. And, as the saying goes... "If you find yourself in a fair fight, then you haven't planned it properly." |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 7/28/2009 11:57:35 AM EDT
[#2]
Originally Posted By Emegbers:
Agreed. "If you find yourself in a fair fight, then you haven't planned it properly." ++1 on that! |
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Posted: 7/28/2009 3:34:39 PM EDT
[#3]
The Tactical Rifle and Shotgun Program at ALGC really promotes the use of the shotgun.
This was the 29th annual Francis Marion shotgun match at Ashland Lake Gun Club in OH. It has been another dry summer, so it was not as muddy as we would have liked. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xScN7Yw_-m8 http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=1B4C398BD4EB6B90 
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Posted: 8/1/2009 8:48:05 PM EDT
[#4]
Originally Posted By eet-ee:
I'm not being a troll, but I have a few comments about why some people don't get training with a shotgun. I have been looking for someplace close (say within 4 hours drive) to take a defensive shotgun course. What I have found are several "tactical" shotgun courses (which don't interest me much), and a couple of "defensive" shotgun courses. The problem is that all of the "defensive" courses were the same as the "tactical" courses run by other schools, and have the same mindset and restrictions: 1. Must wear cargo style pants 2. 12ga shotguns only 3. Must have pistol, holster, and way to carry extra mags 4. Shotgun must have light and side saddle Myself (and several other people I know) are interested in some basic shotgun training, mainly being concerned with home defense in case of break-ins, etc. Therefore, we fully expect something to happen at the worst time (middle of the night), and don't anticipate having time to change from sleepwear to full ninja garb. Being a bit older, none of us wear tactical clothing, and don't want to buy any just to take a class. While we all own 12ga shotguns, one friend wanted to sign up his daughter for a defensive course (she just graduated college and was moving out of town for a new job). She had hunted for years with a 20ga 870, so he bought her a 20" barrel for use in the house. The school refused to allow someone in class with a 20ga shotgun. I live in NY state, where its a hassle to get a pistol license (why in the hell should I have to be fingerprinted to own a pistol? , buts thats another diatribe). Again, if I hear a noise in the middle fo the night I'm going to grab a shotgun, and I wouldn't be looking around for a pistol, holster, and spare mags. Requiring a pistol in NYS rules out a large portion of the populace. I have no problems with a requirement like that for a tactical course, but it shouldn't be part of a defensive class. While I'm putting a light on my shotgun, none of the others are interested in doing so. Also, I don't see an immediate need to put a side saddle on it. Its a lot of expense, and I'd rather wait and see what I learn in training before spending money on non-optimal gear. I am happy to report that I found a school teaching a true defensive shotgun course that doesn't require anything but a shotgun and ammunition, and it is within 75 miles of home. I plan to sign up for the next course in September, as do several friends and co-workers. Good post! |
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Posted: 8/1/2009 9:13:51 PM EDT
[#5]
Originally Posted By eet-ee: I'm not being a troll, but I have a few comments about why some people don't get training with a shotgun. I have been looking for someplace close (say within 4 hours drive) to take a defensive shotgun course. What I have found are several "tactical" shotgun courses (which don't interest me much), and a couple of "defensive" shotgun courses. The problem is that all of the "defensive" courses were the same as the "tactical" courses run by other schools, and have the same mindset and restrictions: 1. Must wear cargo style pants 2. 12ga shotguns only 3. Must have pistol, holster, and way to carry extra mags 4. Shotgun must have light and side saddle Myself (and several other people I know) are interested in some basic shotgun training, mainly being concerned with home defense in case of break-ins, etc. Therefore, we fully expect something to happen at the worst time (middle of the night), and don't anticipate having time to change from sleepwear to full ninja garb. Being a bit older, none of us wear tactical clothing, and don't want to buy any just to take a class. While we all own 12ga shotguns, one friend wanted to sign up his daughter for a defensive course (she just graduated college and was moving out of town for a new job). She had hunted for years with a 20ga 870, so he bought her a 20" barrel for use in the house. The school refused to allow someone in class with a 20ga shotgun. I live in NY state, where its a hassle to get a pistol license (why in the hell should I have to be fingerprinted to own a pistol? , buts thats another diatribe). Again, if I hear a noise in the middle fo the night I'm going to grab a shotgun, and I wouldn't be looking around for a pistol, holster, and spare mags. Requiring a pistol in NYS rules out a large portion of the populace. I have no problems with a requirement like that for a tactical course, but it shouldn't be part of a defensive class. While I'm putting a light on my shotgun, none of the others are interested in doing so. Also, I don't see an immediate need to put a side saddle on it. Its a lot of expense, and I'd rather wait and see what I learn in training before spending money on non-optimal gear. I am happy to report that I found a school teaching a true defensive shotgun course that doesn't require anything but a shotgun and ammunition, and it is within 75 miles of home. I plan to sign up for the next course in September, as do several friends and co-workers. This might be too far for you, but TDI offers very good training for the money and you don't need cargo pants  http://www.tdiohio.com/shotgun.htm |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 8/1/2009 11:41:15 PM EDT
[#6]
Ironmaker, thank you for the suggestion. I will look into it, but its a bit of a long drive. Its 7.5 hours drive from my home to the Dayton area. I hope to attend a local course in early October, and depending on how it goes I may be looking for additional training.
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LA, USA
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Posted: 9/7/2009 7:23:55 PM EDT
[#7]
Myself (and several other people I know) are interested in some basic shotgun training, mainly being concerned with home defense in case of break-ins, etc. Therefore, we fully expect something to happen at the worst time (middle of the night), and don't anticipate having time to change from sleepwear to full ninja garb. Being a bit older, none of us wear tactical clothing, and don't want to buy any just to take a class.
While we all own 12ga shotguns, one friend wanted to sign up his daughter for a defensive course (she just graduated college and was moving out of town for a new job). She had hunted for years with a 20ga 870, so he bought her a 20" barrel for use in the house. The school refused to allow someone in class with a 20ga shotgun. Sounds like some of the folks offering shotgun classes don't know how to fight with a shotgun, IMO. Any good shotgun trainer should be able to teach you with 12 guage or 20 guage, while yo are wearing blue jeans with just some ammo stuffed into the pants. If I was still healthy I'd come up and put one on for you. But failing that may I suggest you John Farnam? Great trainer, and comes to your range and works with the shooter's situation. Or you can try Steve Silverman at FR&I. |
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Posted: 1/27/2010 4:29:13 PM EDT
[#8]
We have a shotgun sidematch usually at the end of our IDPA course that includes : manual/pump, semi-auto and "open"(detachable magazine fed shotguns). We mainly shoot at steel "popper" targets with birdshot. The semi-auto guys are the fastest although one of the pump guys can match their time.
I mainly use my Remingtion 870 with a Hogue fore end and Mesa Tactical 6-shot side saddle shell holder. Although.............a Benelli M4, hell, even a Benelli M1 would be pretty sweet.
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MO, USA
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Posted: 2/1/2010 11:19:22 AM EDT
[#9]
I think the shotgun with 000/00/1/4 size shot is a very good choice for home defense. Going outside the home might be a different story. But inside it is a very capable weapon.
I'm not sure why alot of guys here think they are going to have a shitload of people running thru their house. Maybe if I lived along the southern border I might think differently. However here in the midwest home invasions are rare. and even when they do happen it's 2-3 people. I like the AR platform alot. But, if I want to put someone down with 1 shot at the max distance I'd be shooting in my house the 12 guage with buckshot is it. Iknow the 5.56 rounds have come a long way. But they still dont match the power of a 12 or 20 guage loaded with buckshot at 10 yds or less. |
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Posted: 6/29/2010 10:14:34 PM EDT
[#10]
I'm a huge fan of the shotgun and it took me way too long to learn to appreciate them.
Thankfully ignorant, unlike stupid, is curable. The shotgun is affordable, versatile, legal almost everywhere and, at CQB distance, decisive. Recoil management can be taught and learned. As others have pointed out, many harbor the misconception that they don't need to be aimed. I've had classes with experienced shooters who absolutely cannot keep track of cycling the action, let alone keeping it topped off, when task-loaded with movement and use of cover. Training is a great thing even if the shotgun is simple. Practice is definitive. Thanks, Lee |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 9/29/2010 4:14:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: OLDDOG]
[#11]
Originally Posted By SLR15:
IMHO a perfect versatile all around shotgun will be a Remington 870 or Mossberg 590, equipped with a shell carrier that bolts to the receiver (MesaTactical recommended over others), with an oversized safety, ghost ring or rifle sights, 18"-21" barrel, Surefire 6V light system, short conventional stock, and a good three or single point sling. CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" Chief Instructor [ As a firearms instructor for a police agency here in Arizona I believe that the shotgun is misunderstood. The shotgun is a excellent tool within the ranges deadly force can usually be justified. The shotgun if issued with more than one type of ammunition ie slug and buckshot requires more thinking than the carbine issued with only one type. The younger officers also seem less interested to use the shotgun and prefer the carbine(the chicks dig it factor). I agree with everything Greg sullivan stated above only I despise single point slings and prefer vtac slings over 3 points |
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Posted: 9/29/2010 4:51:25 PM EDT
[#12]
Originally Posted By Tim-L: McNielsen, You are absolutely correct. The shotgun is one of the most powerful long guns you can operate with two hands, yet it is still the least understood. Despite the popularity of the 5.56mm carbine, the shotgun is still the most ubiquitous long gun in police cars across the nation. SuperDave Harrington calls the 12 gauge shotgun "The Hammer of God" and for good reason. It is extremely powerful at CQB distances, and with specialized ammunition, it is also extremely versatile. This includes: breaching rounds, bean bags, rubber batons, OC, and the new Taser round. With good sights, you can hit a man sized target at 100 yards with a slug. New 00 Buck ammunition technology, such as Federal's LE-132 load with the FLITECONTROL wad, allows unmodified shotguns to deliver 9 pellets into 4 inches at 15 yards. The shotgun will likely be the last long gun to be banned, and there is much less political controversy over it than the "evil" black rifles. In addition, with .223 ammunition prices skyrocketing, the shotgun is becoming more economical to train with. The 12 gauge is not without its shortcomings, such as limited range, increased recoil, and lower round capacity. But with the proper training and ammunition, it is overlooked as one of the most economical and effective home defense tool available today. Tim 10-8 Consulting, LLC I agree. If I know I'm walking into a gunfight, my FIRST choice will be a 12 gauge. |
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Posted: 10/4/2010 6:54:23 PM EDT
[#13]
Originally Posted By JM1911:
I think the shotgun with 000/00/1/4 size shot is a very good choice for home defense. Going outside the home might be a different story. But inside it is a very capable weapon. I'm not sure why alot of guys here think they are going to have a shitload of people running thru their house. Maybe if I lived along the southern border I might think differently. However here in the midwest home invasions are rare. and even when they do happen it's 2-3 people. I like the AR platform alot. But, if I want to put someone down with 1 shot at the max distance I'd be shooting in my house the 12 guage with buckshot is it. Iknow the 5.56 rounds have come a long way. But they still dont match the power of a 12 or 20 guage loaded with buckshot at 10 yds or less. I was doing a ride along with one of my friends that works for the sheriff's office here and we had a home invasion in progress with five armed males. All the motherfuckers looked like college linebackers. I think in that instance I'd rather have a rifle... but for one guy in the house, a shotgun would probably be king for me. The only reason it ISN'T at this time is because I don't have a light on my 870 and I think that a light is a necessity for a fighting gun. I have one on my handgun and my AR. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 10/21/2010 1:28:09 AM EDT
[#14]
Originally Posted By 444:
Old thread, but I guess the same subjects are discussed endlessly on internet gun boards, so why not keep the old thread going ? I have personally seen more than one person shot with shotguns and rifles (not both on the same person) and that is ONE of the reasons I chose a carbine over a shotgun. If any of you have actually seen a person up close and personal that have been shot with a rifle (pretty much ANY rifle) and seen the massive wound created, I think you will agree with me. I've seen multiple people shot with both over the years and I agree that the rifle wounds were more effective and in the two cases I was present for immediately stopped the threat. Niether suspect was killed but both were incapicitated and probably would've died if not for Duke ER. Very large wounds and massive blood loss in both cases caused the suspects to lose consciousness. I hung out with a guy for 5 minutes once waiting on EMS one day after he took 2 00 shells to the hand/arm/chest in an armed robbery. He was pretty upset about losing a couple of fingers but that was about it. The wounds in his chest were bleeding, but he wasn't losing much blood very quickly. He walked to the ambulance smoking a newport and was released a couple of days later. Same guy got shot 6-7 in the chest with a .45 a year later and survived that, too. I don't know if crack cocaine acts as a clotting agent..... The only reason there's a shotgun in my trunk right now is the fact that personally owned rifles are verboten and only Patrol carries patrol rifles. Any long gun is more effective than a handgun. There is no weapon that is a guaranteed "one shot" fight stopper, but from what I've seen first hand the 5.56 round does pretty well and has the ability to try again 29 times very quickly. YMMV, Rob |
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Posted: 6/12/2011 12:30:12 AM EDT
[#15]
Originally Posted By RobNC:
Originally Posted By 444:
Old thread, but I guess the same subjects are discussed endlessly on internet gun boards, so why not keep the old thread going ? I have personally seen more than one person shot with shotguns and rifles (not both on the same person) and that is ONE of the reasons I chose a carbine over a shotgun. If any of you have actually seen a person up close and personal that have been shot with a rifle (pretty much ANY rifle) and seen the massive wound created, I think you will agree with me. I've seen multiple people shot with both over the years and I agree that the rifle wounds were more effective and in the two cases I was present for immediately stopped the threat. Niether suspect was killed but both were incapicitated and probably would've died if not for Duke ER. Very large wounds and massive blood loss in both cases caused the suspects to lose consciousness. I hung out with a guy for 5 minutes once waiting on EMS one day after he took 2 00 shells to the hand/arm/chest in an armed robbery. He was pretty upset about losing a couple of fingers but that was about it. The wounds in his chest were bleeding, but he wasn't losing much blood very quickly. He walked to the ambulance smoking a newport and was released a couple of days later. Same guy got shot 6-7 in the chest with a .45 a year later and survived that, too. I don't know if crack cocaine acts as a clotting agent..... The only reason there's a shotgun in my trunk right now is the fact that personally owned rifles are verboten and only Patrol carries patrol rifles. Any long gun is more effective than a handgun. There is no weapon that is a guaranteed "one shot" fight stopper, but from what I've seen first hand the 5.56 round does pretty well and has the ability to try again 29 times very quickly. YMMV, Rob Super old but I have to ask, what shotgun rounds was his hit with? Bird shot, buck shot (if buck then which 00 etc) or a slug? I can't see many rifle rounds being "better" then a 1 oz slug at CQB distance? |
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Posted: 7/1/2011 2:39:51 AM EDT
[#16]
Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
Originally Posted By RobNC:
Originally Posted By 444:
Old thread, but I guess the same subjects are discussed endlessly on internet gun boards, so why not keep the old thread going ? I have personally seen more than one person shot with shotguns and rifles (not both on the same person) and that is ONE of the reasons I chose a carbine over a shotgun. If any of you have actually seen a person up close and personal that have been shot with a rifle (pretty much ANY rifle) and seen the massive wound created, I think you will agree with me. I've seen multiple people shot with both over the years and I agree that the rifle wounds were more effective and in the two cases I was present for immediately stopped the threat. Niether suspect was killed but both were incapicitated and probably would've died if not for Duke ER. Very large wounds and massive blood loss in both cases caused the suspects to lose consciousness. I hung out with a guy for 5 minutes once waiting on EMS one day after he took 2 00 shells to the hand/arm/chest in an armed robbery. He was pretty upset about losing a couple of fingers but that was about it. The wounds in his chest were bleeding, but he wasn't losing much blood very quickly. He walked to the ambulance smoking a newport and was released a couple of days later. Same guy got shot 6-7 in the chest with a .45 a year later and survived that, too. I don't know if crack cocaine acts as a clotting agent..... The only reason there's a shotgun in my trunk right now is the fact that personally owned rifles are verboten and only Patrol carries patrol rifles. Any long gun is more effective than a handgun. There is no weapon that is a guaranteed "one shot" fight stopper, but from what I've seen first hand the 5.56 round does pretty well and has the ability to try again 29 times very quickly. YMMV, Rob Super old but I have to ask, what shotgun rounds was his hit with? Bird shot, buck shot (if buck then which 00 etc) or a slug? I can't see many rifle rounds being "better" then a 1 oz slug at CQB distance? Looks like 00Buck to me... 
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Posted: 7/1/2011 11:26:07 AM EDT
[#17]
I saw a statistic once several years ago, I think it was in something John Lott wrote, about shotgun versus rifle incidents. It went something like this: when, during the course of a crime, a person was shot by a shotgun, they died 85% of the time. When they were shot with a rifle, they died 30% of the time.
BTW, as per my post above, the Annual Francis Marion match in Ashland, OH is July 23rd: http://www.ashlandlakegunclub.org/FranMan/2011/index.html |
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Posted: 7/1/2011 11:56:23 AM EDT
[#18]
Originally Posted By AZYoungGun:
Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
Originally Posted By RobNC:
Originally Posted By 444:
Old thread, but I guess the same subjects are discussed endlessly on internet gun boards, so why not keep the old thread going ? I have personally seen more than one person shot with shotguns and rifles (not both on the same person) and that is ONE of the reasons I chose a carbine over a shotgun. If any of you have actually seen a person up close and personal that have been shot with a rifle (pretty much ANY rifle) and seen the massive wound created, I think you will agree with me. I've seen multiple people shot with both over the years and I agree that the rifle wounds were more effective and in the two cases I was present for immediately stopped the threat. Niether suspect was killed but both were incapicitated and probably would've died if not for Duke ER. Very large wounds and massive blood loss in both cases caused the suspects to lose consciousness. I hung out with a guy for 5 minutes once waiting on EMS one day after he took 2 00 shells to the hand/arm/chest in an armed robbery. He was pretty upset about losing a couple of fingers but that was about it. The wounds in his chest were bleeding, but he wasn't losing much blood very quickly. He walked to the ambulance smoking a newport and was released a couple of days later. Same guy got shot 6-7 in the chest with a .45 a year later and survived that, too. I don't know if crack cocaine acts as a clotting agent..... The only reason there's a shotgun in my trunk right now is the fact that personally owned rifles are verboten and only Patrol carries patrol rifles. Any long gun is more effective than a handgun. There is no weapon that is a guaranteed "one shot" fight stopper, but from what I've seen first hand the 5.56 round does pretty well and has the ability to try again 29 times very quickly. YMMV, Rob Super old but I have to ask, what shotgun rounds was his hit with? Bird shot, buck shot (if buck then which 00 etc) or a slug? I can't see many rifle rounds being "better" then a 1 oz slug at CQB distance? Looks like 00Buck to me... Lol how did I miss that, must have been late
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Posted: 7/1/2011 12:31:56 PM EDT
[#19]
I dig a good scattergun and would love to take a course if I could find one near-by.
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Posted: 7/1/2011 6:20:48 PM EDT
[#20]
Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:Lol how did I miss that, must have been late
No worries, I do it every now and again myself. 
As for shotgun vs. rifle, I'm gonna say it's probably the same as the ol' 9mm vs. .45ACP deal. I find both to be effective, provided shot placement is good. I'm willing to bet a solid hit in the COM with a good rifle will likely put someone down rather quickly. Likewise with a shotgun. You put a .223/.308 into someone's heart at 10-15 yards, or a load of 0/00 buck, and there won't be much of any heart left for the coroner to look at, LOL. |
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Posted: 7/1/2011 6:41:53 PM EDT
[#21]
Originally Posted By AZYoungGun:
Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:Lol how did I miss that, must have been late
No worries, I do it every now and again myself.
As for shotgun vs. rifle, I'm gonna say it's probably the same as the ol' 9mm vs. .45ACP deal. I find both to be effective, provided shot placement is good. I'm willing to bet a solid hit in the COM with a good rifle will likely put someone down rather quickly. Likewise with a shotgun. You put a .223/.308 into someone's heart at 10-15 yards, or a load of 0/00 buck, and there won't be much of any heart left for the coroner to look at, LOL. True indeed |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 8/6/2011 1:49:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: RobNC]
[#22]
Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
Originally Posted By AZYoungGun:
Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:Lol how did I miss that, must have been late
No worries, I do it every now and again myself.
As for shotgun vs. rifle, I'm gonna say it's probably the same as the ol' 9mm vs. .45ACP deal. I find both to be effective, provided shot placement is good. I'm willing to bet a solid hit in the COM with a good rifle will likely put someone down rather quickly. Likewise with a shotgun. You put a .223/.308 into someone's heart at 10-15 yards, or a load of 0/00 buck, and there won't be much of any heart left for the coroner to look at, LOL. True indeed Jumping back in on this one. Shot placement is definitely the most important factor, followed by speed of follow up shots and magazine capacity. I've been to a couple of classes over the last year and learned a few things, especially when it comes to shooting through cars and glass. For a vehicle assault give me a shotgun with 1 oz slugs everytime. For a CQB scenario with no more than 4 bad guys, max ranges of 15 yards, and hard walls I want 00 buck flite control and my Benelli. Anything past 15 yards, multiple/unknown suspects, or typical drywall/sheetrock/siding in an urban area then I want a 5.56 carbine with quality ammo. Stay Safe, Rob |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 8/6/2011 1:55:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: RobNC]
[#23]
Originally Posted By Ironmaker:
I saw a statistic once several years ago, I think it was in something John Lott wrote, about shotgun versus rifle incidents. It went something like this: when, during the course of a crime, a person was shot by a shotgun, they died 85% of the time. When they were shot with a rifle, they died 30% of the time. BTW, as per my post above, the Annual Francis Marion match in Ashland, OH is July 23rd: http://www.ashlandlakegunclub.org/FranMan/2011/index.html The statistic I remember from Urban Rifle training is that 75% of GSWs from long guns are fatal vs. 25% from handguns. Any long gun will cause much more trauma than a handgun. Simple physics, more veliocity=more tissue damage. The speed of the bullet is more important than the diameter. A well placed shot in the brain from a .22 is still more effective than a near miss from a 30mm cannon..... Stay Safe, Rob |
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