Hello!  Pardon the noob question, but I am unsure about an ammo question.  Carbine classes are relatively expensive, given the travel, ammo required, etc.  Lets say you are primarily interested in carbine training for home defense/SHTF scenarios, plus some range fun, but primarily defensive.  Further, you have decided to keep your HD weapon loaded with (as an example) 60 grain Hornady TAP.  If you were going to a carbine class, is it better to buy a bunch of the more expensive TAP ammo to run the class, or is it logical to run the class with cheaper brass bulk ammo, and then re-zero with the TAP (or whatever) when you get back from the class?  I hope that made sense.  

Thanks!

Just run a decent brass FMJ training ammo(or whatever the cheapest reliable ammo you can get is). There would be no advantage to running the more expensive TAP ammo for class.

Only reason I'd use a certain fancy ammo for a class is when its a precision shooting class but thats kind of different.

The class I went to required 1500 rounds, buying high price ammo was not practical.  



The class was split focused with weapon manipulation first and accuracy second, so standard 55 gr. ammunition worked well for me.



My HD gun is zeroed for TAP ammo.

What ammo you run the class with is entirely up to you. Generally you want something that's reliable but not too expensive when bought in bulk (you'll be shooting in bulk). I would recommend you get some cheap ammo for the course. Brass or steel is up to your preference. Cheap ammo may have a higher chance to "benefit" in that it will induce some weapon failures thus causing you to respond with immediate action drills (good training!). Upon returning home re-zero with your chosen HD ammo and run a few drills with your HD ammo in order to continue to hone your skills and confirm that the ammo functions reliably and that your rifle likes that particular type/brand of ammo.

Hope this helps!

ATW!
-Fox

I run the cheapest ammo possible, first it will test your weapon system under less than ideal conditions (i.e. cheap stuff shoots dirty) second, if you get a failure to fire or other malfunction, its good practice. if I am buying my own ammo for a class, I have run well over 2k of the Russian steel case stuff through my ar with no hiccups at all. some of the others in the class that had a dept. budget and no constraints on ammo were running the TAP stuff and federal premium. Funny thing is one guy had a couple jacked up mags and had more issues than anyone else in class. The big ass fire ball was fun as the sun set...
that's just my opinion.

The terminal effect of the ammo on the berm is irrelevant to your training. Use cheap training ammo, with one possible caveat.

If you haven't run much or any of your defensive ammo through your rifle, you might want to run 100~200 rounds just to ensure that it runs reliably in your rifle, magazines etc. The class might be a good opportunity to do that.

I use bulk M193 ammo. The classes I've taken have involved steel targets and the facility specifically stated no M855 allowed.

Yup, me too. I just rotate out the oldest stuff in my stash and order fresh. Although, at my last course we ran 2,000 rounds. I ended up scrounging up all of the old ammo I could find to burn it- I was pulling magazines out of web sets, vehicles, desk drawers...I have always thought I managed my ammo pretty good but was I surprised at how much I found when I really started digging...Rem UMC .223, PPU, Guat, South African and some ancient PMC that I had completely forgotten about.....Burned it all.


Ordered three cases of MEN to replace it with.

I will always run affordable ammo during courses, especially if they are high round count. I usually run bulk m193, but have run wolf/tula before as well. If anything, the steel cased stuff may not run as clean, but if its "dirty enough" to stop your rifle after 500-1000 rounds then maybe the rifle needs work.

My Tavor chews through and spits out Wolf 55gr. MC just as well as my 77gr. Bthp match razorcore.

Steel cased 55gr. Wolf Military Classic sofpoints. 1k rounds for $220. That's my training ammo

Whatever you use, make sure it is quality and will not cause any malfunctions.  A couple of popped primers on milsurp ammo shut my carbine down and earned me a coveted Moose Cock award from the man himself, Pat Rogers.

First, confirm that your chamber is not only rated for .223. It needs to be Wylde or rated for 5.56mm loads. For most of my courses, I recommend XM193 for clients. XM193 is a very high velocity load and gives you the capability to set up a relatively flat zero out to 300yds. Depending on what your application is, you do not need TAP rounds (I'll qualify that statement in a sec). XM193 will give you more than adequate blind barrier penetration.

The only reason we need expanding rounds is to control penetration. Expanding rounds that hit soft tissue with adequate velocity will expand and decelerate the round to avoid over penetration issues. If this rifle is for L/E, SWAT or active shooter applications, than expanding rounds should be considered to reduce the possibility of the round smoking through your target and into non-combatants. Of course if you're running around with a 10" SBR, than you still have that problem past 70yds or so. So, if you are just training for preparedness or SHTF, then XM193 will be just fine for training and real world. Shot placement is king. Use your threat as a bullet trap.

Many people think malfunctions in class are ok. I would agree.

Definitely for an intro class.  If it is a faster paced class, malfunctions of equipment, guns, gear are going to create problems. Still, to your point, that's the time to learn.

 
Not if it happens with regularity. The student becomes focused on getting his rifle to work instead of learning the prescribed instruction. Most classes will cover malfunction clearances and induce what is required. That's no excuse for problematic equipment that could slow down the rest of the class or prevent the student from learning IMO. Especially with something drastic like a popped primer or case head separation that will deadline the rifle and remove the student from the line until it can be fixed.


 

As a student of a lot of training courses, I agree 100% with the statement in red.

The most basic class may not cover malfunctions, however, most classes do cover them. So, as stated above, a student with a problematic
weapon only drags the class down (unless that student is removed from the line, so the class can continue unimpeded).

Everyone will encounter (at least once) the occasional blown primer; It happens. However, if the student just has bargain basement ammo that is
problematic, that is another thing entirely.

Yes, one will get the benefit of having their gear/ammo/weapon sorted-out by taking a class.
However, what is the primary purpose of going to a class?

Is it to get your shit sorted out, or, is it to learn techniques, tactics, and procedures?

Lastly, that student that shows up to a course with bad ammo and/or a problematic weapon usually gets referred to as 'That Guy...'

EDITED for clarification

The second rifle idea is a good one. I personally don't loan out rifles to clients due to liability.

I will say that I highly recommend against any steel cased Wolf or Tula. Beyond the throat erosion issues, I have never had a student show up to a course with them that did not wind up with a stuck casing by the end of day 1. If you insist on running these types of ammo, make sure you utilize your chamber brush to keep your throat as clean as possible to reduce the chance of a failure to extract and consider getting a .22 cal brass rod and keeping it with you to aid in casing extraction.

2nd rifle or a spare bolt/bolt with carrier.

 
Excellent advice. I always bring a spare rifle with me when taking a class so a catastrophic parts failure doesn't ruin it.


If you only have one rifle then at least a spare bolt is a good idea.

If you're using a 60 gr bullet for home defense, zero with that bullet and then just use the cheapest M193 you can find or Wolf Gold .223 (which is pretty much M193).  Your zero won't be off by much, if at all, at the distances you'll be shooting at in a carbine course.

Yeah, that's my point. It's one thing to get one or two malfunctions but another thing to spend all day battling your gear instead of learning from Pat Rogers or whoever you have the opportunity to actually learn from.