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"If you haven't trained at MVT, you won't know about the quality or depth of the training, and your comments lack credibility. MVT training is not your prior service 'survivor bias' low level SUT training you received, and were lucky to get away with if you deployed, and it's not your FM regurgitation with no real world experience to back it up. What the heck do you think we are doing here? High quality light infantry training, for the most part. Come and train, or STFU."

Quick question: if ONLY those who have been to your school can discuss this and have credability, they why post this here and not on YOUR forum for just MVT students?  Again, why are you here if not to discuss?

Regarding the tactics portion: this method does not allow for flexibility. Warfare is not a set of football style plays. Current tactics are based upon an understanding of concepts rather than pre programmed motions.

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carefully read and Subscribed to thread

PS: I was also on the "Team can change on the fly + as needed by terrain/situation" side of things.

But Mr. Lee is convincing me otherwise.

Issues I see initially:  


-who is in charge? Regardless of an SOP, someone has to lead the team. That method does not utilize any leadership.

-where is new info coming from?  The plan does not allow the input of new info, and dissemination to the rest of the team. Blindly following a plan in an ever changing situation can get you into a worse position. This is one of the main reasons 75th went away from it. Less battle drills and more initiative based tactics saved lives.

I fully agree with accountability, especially with personnel, on the battlefield. It is one of the main concepts that must be understood and applied.  But your scenario is scripted for the loss of 1 person, not the possibility of more. What happens when 2 people are down, either a team or 1 from each? Then what. Concepts and thought have to override football plays and absolutes like "always and never."

This is the kind of discussion I enjoy reading.

Well, gee, OK, let me say this about that.  These T,T,P's are a bit different from my time, although the guy teaching them there is a former Marine NCO, who developed these techniques from his recent combat experience, so I'm not gonna just dismiss them "out of hand".

It's not as leaderless at it looks at first blush.  On a related post, Lee expounded on the difference between the AI drills and the squad leaders combat estimate.  I encourage you to read that as a companion to this piece.  

The main issue was what to do when separated from your buddy.  Some said fuckit, just go with who you're with, and others said, get back to your buddy as fast as the sit permits.  I like the MVT concept of shooting and moving with your buddy (as opposed to individual rushes) because it just makes sense for us and what we're doing.  So to maneuver until you're back with your buddy makes the most sense to me.   And that is what Lee is recommending here.  In fact it gives you more accountability, by making sure no one is (usually) left behind.   If I am fire and maneuvering with my buddy, and he goes down, I'm right there to help get him a TQ on, and out of the line of fire.  While hopefully the other buddy teams lays down suppressive fire.

There has been criticism of this "football plays" concept, which like anything else, if taken too far, doesn't fit what we're doing.  But the general concept of it, as stated by Gunny Poole in his writings ("The Last Hundred Yards: The NCO's Contribution to Warfare") does make sense.  What is an AI drill if not a football "one minute" drill?

On a related note, who is in charge of your 4-man fire team?  Since this is armed citizens, not the military, the concept, as taught be Lee, is that a natural leader is gonna emerge.  This is something more akin to Colonist electing their officers, versus rank being handed out by the Hierarchy.  You will have a fire team, and a squad leader.  You will have AI drills (called actions on contact at MVT) which you will do without formal orders.  Then the FT Ldr and/or the Squad Ldr will make their combat estimate and give orders as they see fit.  So it's there, it's just not readily apparent from reading one thread.

Relying on leadership to spring up in the heat of battle is not a solution.  Again, this method completely negates the ability of the individuals to THINK.  Hence, it is NOT used.

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This single statement is the complete opposite of what the US uses.  THe UK may do it the way you describe, but we utilize being able to think, adapt, and adjust EVEN IN THE MIDST OF A FIGHT, to be one of the best and most effective qualities of our forces.  As much as I dislike quoting specific scenarios (because every described has a specific solution and also a response to that solution) I'll use one to make the point clear.

If AB need to stay together as well as CD teams, what happens when AB team needs something that the CD team has, such as ammo, SAW, litter, communications, etc...?  Teams & personnel MUST be able to adjust as needed based upon METT-TC and commander's guidance.  

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It shows you as the author but either way, it is not used.  It is an archaic tactic based upon cold war ideology.  I know tactics take a while to disseminate throughout the entire military.  Perhaps he didn't get the memo before writing this.  

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The concept of having to stay with the same pairs and not being able to adjust is archaic.  

- I'm not sure of the date of his latest deployment, but it was considerably later than 2004 after 4 years service.

(you're still trying to dick measure, now with someone else's dick?!?  Discuss like an adult or leave...)



From FM 7-8:

2-1. MISSION TACTICS
Mission tactics is the term used to describe the exercise of command authority by a leader. Mission tactics
places the relationship of command, control, and communications in proper perspective by emphasizing
the predominance of command. This emphasis on command, rather than control, provides for initiative,
the acceptance of risk, and the rapid seizure of opportunities on the battlefield. Mission tactics can be
viewed as freedom of action for the leader to execute his mission in the way he sees fit, rather than being
told how to do it. Mission tactics reinforced by the knowledge of the higher commander's intent and
focused on a main effort establishes the necessary basis for small-unit leadership.
a. The philosophy of mission tactics extends throughout all levels of command. Leaders must be provided
the maximum freedom to command and have imposed on them only the control necessary to synchronize
mission accomplishment. Sometimes leaders must issue specific instructions. Normally, this is necessary
when the unit's actions must be synchronized with other actions. Mission tactics, as a command
philosophy, recognizes the many tools available to the leader, but emphasizes that there is no substitute for
the personal element of command.
b. Execution of mission tactics requires initiative, resourcefulness, and imagination. Initiative must be
driven by the commander's intent, not merely by a desire for independent action. Leaders must be
http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/7-8/ch2.htm (1 of 190) [1/9/2002 9:38:24 AM]FM 7-8 Chptr 2 Operations
resourceful enough to adapt to situations as they are, not as they were expected to be.

Hey cool, you still have the old 7-8.  I like it although it's outdated now, isn't it?

It's not outdated.  It has been updated to allow even more flexibility.   Even the older versions, like the one I posted (i intentionally went back to cold war area since I mentioned it) to show that even then, adaptability was paramount.

I generally like many of the pre-GWOT Manuals best :)

Participants:

Its great that you are all passionate and that this training forum is now so active. awesome!!

Lee's post is spot on. I've attended a couple of MVT classes and I know with that terrain movement can get confusing and it can be challenging just to unf@ck yourselves; either getting back on line or rallying. Remember CUTT teams probably will have to operate without resupply, air support, and search and rescue. Keeping buddy pairs intact via communication and sound tactics are key.