The eyebrows thing is good stuff. camera on yourself doing ready ups/dry fire will find this pretty quickly.  

The thing is, I have read this in Kyle Lamb's book, but didn't realize I was doing it.   Yeah good buddy or cam to spot this stuff.    

I also think part of it was my buttstock was still a little short, contributing to scrunching up.

Day 2 dry fire, without turkey neckin'.

Max gets very butthurt when you call him on his BS, especially with info from the horses mouth and not from "this one guy."  He then follows it up with lots of false assumptions and gets way off track, often fighting battles that aren't even there. I wonder if he treats his students like that and blows up and goes off on tangents of self inflation every time a question is asked?  


I did however figure out a possible reason why Max advocates and utilizes this "tactical clearance" method of fighting from the door....

He can't get himself and is over inflated ego through it.  


Enough about him though, with Max gone for a few days I bet we can continue purposeful discussions here.  

Sorry for the derailment.

That's actually pretty funny for you, colotroll, well done. But to keep the topic on me for a bit, since you like to talk about me so much, I prefer to think of myself as Darth Vader, striding through the breach in the rebel spaceship, theme music playing, past the minion stormtroopers.

Like the visual?

Oops, sorry. Forgot. I'm supposed to be all butthurt and stuff....

I'm still not seeing any constructive or meaningful points to refute combat / tactical clearance? Just ad hominem attacks and shit talk about how crap BritMil is......

???

In his defense, you guys have pulled his chain pretty hard.  He's a typical Brit, which is to say, we are separated by a common language.  He is a mustang, come up through the ranks, so yeah he does have a bit of hard bark on him.  Same as any other mustang I ever met.    

I would also say this is a typical Brit, or anyone else from a (good) foreign military.  Of course their ways and means are different, and they are proud of them.  We tend to view the world through our own system, which we assume to be superior to everyone else.  I was always impressed with the Brits, after cross-training with them.   In fact, I always thought their kit was light-years ahead of ours.  And that started me down the gear-making road, years ago.

No, in class he is totally different.  Although he doesn't suffer fools lightly, he also goes out of his way to make sure people are getting the most out of training.  Based on your fitness and skill level, he will turn it up or down as required.  And I was totally impressed with his level of safety, both built in, and on-going.  He is the real deal, too.   He has a very solid knowledge of SUT and related subjects.   I have to interpret it sometimes, from Brit lingo, to ours, but all in all, it's pretty close to the same stuff I learned at Quantico.  

I'm not sure why we seemed to have gotten into this pissing contest.  I don't think we're really that far off on things, like if we sat down and discussed things over a camp fire, instead of slinging words at each other on-line.

I have to admit, I had a different picture of him myself, based on some of his writings on line.  But after I actually met him, I saw the real person, not the rhetoric on-line

Could we do a re-set here guys?.  

For what it is worth, as I have been doing dry fires today, with different stance and new stock setting, I am finding the "sweet spot" on my face, between my "cheek" bone, and my jaw line.  It's somewhere right between the cheek bone, for iron sights, and the jawline, for IR laser.  I find that by adjusting this spot, I can move the dot up or down in the scope, until it's roughly centered.  I'm also indexing on roughly the intersect of the stock itself and the tube.  By getting these two points set up, I'm now able to bring the gun up, and see the dot, without moving my head/neck.  Well, too much,  Still working on it.

Agreed. It's absolutely way out of line. I am, personally, very cool, no need to cool off. But I can tell you that I am not happy that, having attempted on multiple occasions to get solid tactical discussion going, I have been subject to extremely rude personal attack by characters that I can only describe as trolls.

I number of threads have been derailed in this manner, by the same individuals. I am surprised that mods have not stepped up and intervened to keep the threads on track. What's up with that?

???

I think that both sides bring differing perspectives based on their training and experience (along with a touch of ego and butthurt).

I do not know Max, but I will say that some crap on an Internet forum wouldn't stop me from taking training from him in the future.  Having been to a British Army school (Interrogator) when I was in was certainly an experience, and things are done differently.  Doesn't make them wrong in my book - not at all.  In fact, alternative ways have proven very beneficial to me over the years.

I do know Eric (dopushups), and have taken a couple of his classes.  They were well run, informative and very professional.  I vetted him with a personal friend that is in SFOD-D, and he's legit.

My point is that while both of these guys may disagree on certain tactics, the bottom line is that people attend the classes to learn something.  Might be a lot, might be a little.  Everyone has their own criteria for what they want to learn in a class, and they also have the responsibility to make sure their instructor knows that.  But getting bitchy and personal in technical forum won't help anyone and only makes the instructors look like kids arguing about who's brother can beat up whom - no one really cares.

*GOOD*

This is good rational commenting. Now, I will say this, since Diz started posting over here, and I followed, everything MVT has been dogged by a couple of members. Coloccw being the prime one, and his quote on the original (locked) Max Velocity Tactical thread was, in reference to other posts I had made / was making: "I may have to waste some time tearing those apart." And yes, he has since been doing his best to derail and destroy any chance of useful conversation. This is a guy with 4 years in the Ranger Regiment as a forward observer, yet he feels he has the knowledge and position to destroy legitimate discussion on tactics by tho far more trained, experienced and qualified than him.

It is incorrect to described this as a 'tit for tat.' Yes, there have been some comments back from me, but I have been back and read the threads and there is nothing that, in retrospect, I would want to remove. Sarcasm and even joking does not translate well in comments if the intent of the reader is malicious (such as my Darth Vader visual, which i enjoyed!). If you go and read the threads and read the inflammatory, insulting, incorrect lies and mis-characterizations you would be amazed that I have actually kept my cool. On that original thread, even the members who were involved made several attempts to tell coloccw that he was out of order. Nothing will stop him and his ignorant rudeness. I am a well qualified professional with years of experience both in uniform, on contract, and as a trainer. I can assure you that I know what I am talking about. I am doing my best to start good tactical discussions  but it is overwhelmed by BS.

Now, I have seen nothing from the three main detractors that is an actual rational contention that, for example, there is anything wrong with what I teach (as they assert) and specifically with the combat / tactical clearance method that I have been trying to discuss in relation to CQB. It just been ad hominem attacks against me, my background, , of which they know little, only what I have posted on  my bio, my teaching methods, and even the British Army and specifically the British Paras, which was a unit I served with.

Now, I'm not going to go into why I think this is, only quote this for truth:

"The tacti-cool crowd DOES NOT like to be called out for their BS, but some of them actually BELIEVE in it...."

I seriously think that the destructive and inflammatory comments need to cease, and moderators need to make sure it happens. Let;s have some good tactical discussion, it is after all a tactical tech forum!

Well Said!

MODS - Can we lock this thread and put this to bed?

Seconded. I've removed all of my comments from the OP threads and those of his group. It doesn't appear that they are productive.

I dont know you from Adam and u dont know me, so I dont want wish to come across as snarky in any way, especially since i could probably learn a lot from you, as you are an instructor and I am not (no sarcasm intended!!)..... but I've been kinda scratching my head reading your posts in this thread..... I didnt see anything in those comments anyone could respond to ?

There was nothing in them, except that vague reference 2 or 3 times to tactics you are somehow not at liberty to talk about. (shrug)

I would like to learn from you, but when those posts are free of content that makes it hard...
I realize it's late at night, but no reason to get offended when no one responds then...

.

I am in no way speaking for DoPushUps but it is very appearent  that every response from a particular group was not geared towards discussion, but rather attacks and avoidance of the disputed issues. I'm honestly surprised he contributed as much as he did.  While the tone in this section is calmed down, there is still the same rhetoric being shoved around from others. If you want to learn from DoPushUps, his website with his training courses, schedule, and verifiable bio is at the bottom of his posts.

Colon,

I will check out his website and descriptions tommorrow.
But I honestly didn't find anything in his posts? ?

Or did I miss something because its getting late ??

The posts were hardly free of content, but you have to realize that very few people, for good reason, are going to spell out exactly the way stuff like this is conducted in an open Internet forum.

I must have missed it then..
In any event I was starting to enjoy how people were actually talking to each other

There was plenty of discussion and talk here until about a week or so ago. I don't think I need to point fingers for anyone to figure the problem.

I disagree.  Max came on here with some different ideas from your "mainstream".  He posted multiple threads trying to contribute something.  Yes, he is very strong opinioned, as are a lot of you guys.   He was hit with inflammatory rhetoric from several individuals, this is according to TonyF, not my just my opinion.  He finally responded in kind.  I myself tried to keep it on the up and up until individuals were posting personal attacks, questioning his competence and integrity.  Then I responded in kind.

In my opinion, the mods responded very selectively, censuring Max, as the bad boy, while letting their high post count buddies skate.  Then the big dogs stepped in, warning everybody to cool it.  

You have two things really.  First is some people can't even consider new ideas that are different from their mainstream.  They go out of their way to proclaim how wrong a new guy is, just because it doesn't fit into their preconceived ideas.

Secondly, you have very strong personalities here.  These kinds of conflicts are inevitable.  Especially on-line, if you can't meet face to face.

Ed

His talking about the 2 locked threads that are a bit lower in the list.

Not trying to be dick, here, I'm really not, but this has been an on-going situation in several threads.  It goes WAY back to when a guy asked about MVT.  I answered up because I trained there and wanted to recommend them to others.  Someother guys called this "ballistic masturbation" and Max a "snake oil salesman". I took exception to that.  No mod ever stepped in until Max came on and (rather forcefully) defended himself.  If someone questioned your competence and integrity, you'd get a little hot, too, right?

Yes, agreed. The crap that has been written about me, in particular by coloccw, would make several libel attorneys very happy. It been pretty f*cking disappointing.

It has been a bunch of lies and slander, twisting of facts and statements, that has no bearing on truth and has not actually addressed any of the tactical discussion points that I have raised. The closest it has come to that is effectively: Max is full of shit, and I just spoke to some old buddy's and they confirmed he is full of shit. It has involved falsely and inaccurately portraying my bio/background/ training and even units of the British Army in which I served.

It's playground crap, and mods have let this slide, and then jumped on me for minor comments in defense. It started on the Max Velocity Tactical thread, which you need to read, and then continued on any other threads that i have started, that should also be read to see the context of this.

We at MVT are here to add value to this forum. There are about 3 individuals who have actively worked to prevent that, for their own reasons.

Since you mentioned me specifically I'll respond...


It seems that you handle criticism like a 3 yr old and respond in the same fashion.  If you can't take someone questioning your credentials because you use a pen name and inflate your claims, nor can respond appropriately to legitimate questions and discussions about the tactics YOU posted, then go back to your own forum.  You can do whatever and act however you want there.  You've made it very clear in other threads that you have no respect for the membership or the moderators of this forum.  You are not here to contribute, only talk shit.  If you feel I slandered you or was libelous, then call your legal team.  Have at it. I'm sure they could use a laugh as well.  You should look up the definitions of those words before you use them.  


Sorry for the derailment.  Diz, go back to basics and focus on wrist tension to alleviate your low left issue.

Diz does not work for MVT. He has explained this in a related thread. He is a moderator on the MVT forum. Voluntary. He was simply recommending the school because he trains with us and gets a lot out of it. He is a good student and a friend.

Duly noted.  Wilco.

To the OP, I just wanted to emphasize what an awesome local resource this guy (my buddy) is.  I could only hope each one of you could find someone like this to help them progress.  

I have been working all week on the stuff he pointed out.  And of course it's raining today so the range is pretty much a No-Go.

One other thing he showed me, was the newer style grip (aka "C" clamp).  I thought this was pretty much gamer stuff, but, as he pointed out, depending on terrain and situation, it works really well.  Especially stand up gunfighting with multiple opponents.   So again, it's  a matter of trying something new and seeing how it works.  I really like it so far.  It's really rock steady for off-hand shooting (otherwise known as standing up).  In fact, I think I'm gonna dremel one of my FSB's down and install an extended rail to really take advantage of it.

I looked at those pictures the other day and thought, I wonder what I did, as it has been a couple weeks since I shot and never really paid attention. I grabbed the rifle and just picked it up to shoulder it. Pleasantly surprised to see my head really didnt go anywhere. I lowered the weapon, and took a couple of steps forward into a defensive "boxer"stance which is how i normally shoot, and raised the rifle again, still really didnt move my head down to meet the rifle. I felt the bottom of the buttstock against my collarbone. I held everything still and looked up, down, around, etc. without moving my head or dropping the weapon. definitely had the periph I wanted and I was glad to see I was doing SOMETHING right... now to fix all the other crap i do wrong.

This may be a green comment/ question, but Does it make sense to "alter" one's grip to cater to a specific situation? Such as clearing a building, hallway, room, To choke up on the rifle a bit to decrease the amount of movement required by the body to get the weapon into position? and then readjust when the situation calls for it? say you clear a building, and upon exiting, identify a threat advancing from a range say 75 yards away, and prepare for the engagement if your verbal warnings are not heeded. During your verbl commands, is it practical to adjust your stance and grip on the weapon to get yourself into a better position to be effective? Say dropping to a knee and extending that hand down the handguard while doing your best to maintain sight picture? Maybe take a couple seconds to achieve this position, but is it worth it? and how effective is it?

My gut would say it is worth it IF you have the element of surprise and the nearby "luxury" of cover that provides the tactical advantage to the situation. But if you were already under fire, it may deem to be a loss of precious time if cover is not taken.

I guess my real thesis and question is: Wouldnt it be better for shooters to practice and become proficient in all types of rifle grips and become familiar with them before beginning to pick one direction and dedicate themselves to it? Once they know and can properly apply all types, he or she will be able to fall back on a certain grip if he HAS to and still be effective against a threat?

Once again, Ihave never formally gone to a training class, but i am hoping to quite soon. I just want to make sure my software package is bug free.

ABSOLUTELY!!!  

Sorry if that was already discussed in this thread. I just read Tony's responses to Diz and it got me thankin.

Don't be. I'm just glad to see someone thinking.

Tools in the tool box.  There are many ways to do this stuff and accomplish the mission.  You don't want to get too dogmatic about it.  

The assumption it seems, when someone talks about this stuff that they're going to do this technique all the time.  That's simply not the case.  

To elaborate, I think the C-clamp grip is an awesome tool for certain times and places.  I am going to run around on a whole patrol like that?  Of course not. Would I use it in a stand up gunfight with multiple opponents?  You bet.

I had previously thought it was more of a gamer technique, and was a big proponent of Paul Howe's classic rifle positions, but now I think it has a place in the tool box.

Gold - Im glad to hear that you're not taking the route of "this is the best grip and is all you'll ever need to do in a gunfight" That was the only thing that made me nervous in reading your post above. I've used this grip a few times at the range, and while, uncomfortable for me, It did help my off hand shooting. So, as you said.. tools in the toolbox.

Blue - I believe it is still important to realize that in the event of a stand up firefight, the C clamp grip still might not be the most effective method to engage threats. I would think the environment will dictate the manipulation of the weapon and it is up to the end user to be cognizant enough of his situation to apply all the knowledge and training he has acquired to the specific scenario.

While all these methods are tools in the tool box, and ALL have purpose and effectiveness, it is important to make sure those tool are organized properly and properly applied.

Not disagreeing with you, just adding possible circumstances that can influence decisions.

The C grip is really great for short range, short duration shooting, while standing, with a long skinny AR15.

Clearing your house of bad guys in the night? Hell yes!

Just about anything else it's not ideal. Most armed citizens don't have a need for anything else so it gets taught. A lot. I can say if you have another task that requires you to carry a rifle the C grip will not be your go to. Yeah you should know it and practice it because when it shines it really shines. The rest of the time however you need more. I like to use a hybrid grip. Thumb parallels the barrel, any grip is used as an index point. ive been used and used saws, shotguns, an MP5 once, a 203 and my M4. You ain't C gripping a 249 and clearing rooms for hours on end.

You have to be flexible. I like using movies to drive training points home, mostly because I like movies and it's easy to relate to watching a movie. If you haven't seen one it's easy to find. Ever see Quigly Down Under? He said he never had much use for a colt peacemaker.....never said he didn't know how to use it.

Principles of marksmanship will carry you further than being a technique collector.  Having your hand as close to the muzzle as is comfortable is the best for recoil
management and whether your thumb is over the the top of the bore has very little, if any, impact on this.

You also need to be able to adjust arm/hand/body position based on what's being done.  I was recently teaching a structure clearing course and one thing noted by the students was how would pull my support side elbow in extremely tight to my body while pieing corners.  They also noted that I didn't spend a huge amount of time switching shoulders while working my way through the house

Good point.  I think the situation is going to dictate the tactics, not the other way around.  It sounds like you are intuitively adjusting to the sit, which is where we all want to be.  

Another good point on the C-clamp.  It's not only having your off hand as far out as practical, it's also the fact that it is applying pressure back into your shoulder pocket, for a solid stance.  This makes a huge difference, versus the classic techniques of basically just resting your rifle on your off-hand. The way my buddy explained it, you are trying to exert as little force as possible with the grip hand, so the trigger finger is squeezing smoothly, while the off-hand provides support.  

And on a related note, since starting a good strength building routine, I can hold these positions, including the c-clamp, much longer, better.

Eh, true, reality rears it's ugly head.  But I also believe that motivation and dedication (and perhaps necessity) get a vote as well.  

The issue of sustainability.  No easy answers.  I have been working out and shooting on a pretty regular basis since 1976.  At least enough to weigh in on this issue.  You just have to make the time.  It may not be on a regular schedule; it may be a half hour here, a couple of hours there.  You just gotta make it happen.  You may have a busy month and not do shit.  But then things ease up and you make the time.  This has been my experience. As always, YMMV.

For a lot of folks, combat arts are just a hobby, a sport, or a competition.  So from that perspective, it's just an activity you do when you have "leisure" time.  Just the times we live in.  It wasn't that long ago that our ancestors did this stuff on a regular basis, as a part of their daily lives.  

Easy to say, oh quit your job, move to a small town, and get back to these basics again.  For most folks it just isn't in the cards.  You're pretty much stuck in your present position.

So what to do.  Well, one thing that TonyF may be kinda referring to is the Pilipino concept, of training up to a standard, that's obtainable, near term, and then progressing as time and money allow.  While granted, most folks don't have the wherewithal to train up to Mac's level, it's still a worthy goal to shoot for.  You do the best you can, with what ya got.

At least ya gotta try.  I just turned 60 and my doctor told me I have the body of a 40 yr old (and my wife says I have the mind of an 18 yr old).  So one thing I do know, is that if you keep up some sort of sustainment program, you can stay operational a lot longer.  No, it ain't easy, and yeah, it's a lot of work, but I think it was worth it.  You just gotta make it happen.

Reality doesn't just rear its ugly head. It moves in, stays a while, and doesnt pay rent. Then when it leaves, you're left with the next few months to regain ground you lost.... Repeat cycle....

I believe the ultimate level, to PRACTICALLY apply one's received training is only contained within the realms of .Mil and LE engagements. Maybe also in Competition settings, but not on a squad level of moving and firing. This makes that practical application an event that will never affect most of us in the world. You could argue that in a self defense scenario, which is unlikely, but More likely than the traditional SHTF prep scenarios, one would be able to apply his learning, but it stands to reason that even a few basic fundamental courses and maybe even shooting a competition or two a year can influence one's reaction to this type of engagement. I also doubt that the criminals who would venture to mug you on the street, rob you in a store, or break into your home, are attending these classes on the weekends and planning raids against those who are training to neutralize these events from happening.

Im not discrediting training received, acquired, or even taught.

These are skills I wish to develop. Disciplines I wish to sharpen as much as the next person, and I agree with your take on PT and the physiological factors. This is coming from a 29 y/o male who weighs 260 lbs and is 6.1". PT isnt my strong suit. I was 18 y/o and 330 lbs as a senior in high school. Been up and down for 10 years. Hopefully its coming down for good. I hope I can say I have the conditioning and body of a 50 y/o when im 60. Much respect to you for maintaining and keeping the edge sharp.

Again to the financial aspect of training. While some people are very competitive for the quality of training received, I still try to look at it as an investment, and maximize my return on that investment. Now, You all can criticize me by saying that I havent even invested yet, but I assure you, God- Willing, Its coming. Many of you probably feel i have no business being in this forum in the first place, since I am green to all of it. And that's ok too. I'm greatful for the things I have read i nthis forum, both good and bad. The ducks are getting more lined up than they used to be and im thankful for that.