I didn't realize BOT had evolved into so much more than just penetration (giggity) testing.  I am a big flashlight guy and reading this post about low light techniques, specifically "how much light is needed", opened my eyes quite a bit when I actually practiced clearing my house with a few different lights.

I thought this might garner some good discussion because lately in the "lights and lasers" AR15 subforum I see guys recommending 500+ lumens time and time again, regardless of the role the weapon will play.  I keep seeing "there's no such thing as too much light".  Outdoors I would tend to agree, or when you have your light on an already identified intruder you want as much blinding light as possible to prevent him/her from thinking about doing something stupid when your gun is trained on them.

However, after doing some real world testing, I've come to the conclusion that indoors (a normal sized residential house) less is more.  I'll go through the lights I tested and my results below.  Keep in mind, I live in a suburb, there is no ambient light (no streetlamps outside, etc), my walls are sort of a beige color, and my house is approx 2,000 sq ft.

Streamlight TLR-1 HL (630 lumens)
Holy shit, way too much light.  "Blip and move" is more like "blip and trip over something, or bump into a door frame"

Surefire 6P with Malkoff M61 (235 lumens - older XPG model)
Still too much light.  Not quite the "blip and blind" of the TLR-1 HL, but still overwhelmingly bright.

Surefire 6P with Malkoff M61L 219 (175 lumens)
Much better - the 219 drop in is slightly floodier, and has a warmer tint than the two lights above so it's easier on the eyes.

Surefire 6P with P60 (65 lumens)
Perfect.  Just enough light to illuminate a room, but not so much that you're completely blinded after it turns off

Surefire E2D with MN02 (60 lumens)
This is also a good output, although I prefer the seemingly larger hotspot from the P60 above.

Surefire LX2 Lumamax (15/200 lumens)
This is about ideal for me using the 15 lumen mode to navigate/search.  If I find something that needs more light, I press harder and 200 lumens is on tap in a fraction of a second.

I know that some people may not like using the LX2 because it takes fine motor skills to press only hard enough to access 15 lumens and not the full 200, and I get that.  If you're in that camp, the 6P original w/ P60 is probably perfect for you.

What works well for you?

I personally don't think there is a magic number or power that is "too much." I think it is very dependent on each situation, and each person. For instance:



You go from being outside, at night, with little to no ambient light - your eyes are totally adjusted to the dark and then you start clearing a house with a white light. A 600 lumen light may very well be overkill and lead to some self-blinding depending on what type of structure you are clearing.



However, if it is the middle of a sunny, cloudless day - and you go from that environment, into a dark basement.... you may have difficulty seeing everything well with a 600 lumen light, especially in your peripheral vision.



Likewise, differences in spill, penetration, lumens, hotspot, etc - can have different advantages or disadvantages when you're clearing a bathroom versus a large garage, or some other larger, open room.



I run a TLR 1 HL on my rifle (630 lumen). On my handgun I run a Surefire X300 (240 lumens I think?). I have not switched to the Surefire Ultra yet in part because I like haven't found the need for the higher lumen light on my handgun. That said, I use the rifle to clear houses frequently and I really haven't found it to be too bright. In fact, when I used it outdoors, there are times when I wish it were brighter. Like I said above though, if your eyes were used to the darkness before hand, and you turn on the 600 lumen light - at the least your NV is going to be degraded for a while, and you may have to rely on the light more for the rest of your clear. I guess in the end, I would rather have too much light than not enough.





I wrote some more thoughts on this here. It's directed at LE, but the same principles apply whether it's your house or someone else's.

http://progunfighter.com/the-myth-of-self-blinding/

Those are good points.  For me, I know my house is well lit with plenty of ambient light during the day, so I'm not going to need a flashlight to clear it (i.e., my eyes being adapted to the light won't matter in my case).

I think it does make a great argument for a LEO or someone who might need to do daytime clearing of a dark structure to carry a 100 lumen handheld light that can be easily used in conjunction with a weapon, and have a brighter (500 lumen) weapon mounted light for those instances where they are clearing a large, dark structure, or searching outdoors after dark.

I do have a P2X Fury with high and low settings that have outputs to cover each situation perfectly, but frankly I don't like click-type mode changing interfaces for anything I might use while wielding a gun.  Too much uncertainty as to which mode will come on if you're bliping and moving.

I recently attended an EAG tactical class down here in FL taught by the man the myth the legend PAT Rogers, he's a great guy, however I disagreed with him when it cam to lights. He recommends a 500-1000 lumen light on a gun be it a handgun or a rifle, I think in many situations it's too much.
500-1000 lumens reflecting off of white drywall will blind the fuck out of you at close range, say 10 yards or so.

If you need that much light you might want to think about investing in a helmet and PVS-14 and an IR laser.
Remember lights will get you killed if you use them negligently.

You also have to remember how you will/plan to be using this.... Is this a nightstand gun where when you wake up your eyes will be adjusted to the dark. Or are you a doorkicker who will be making entries in to dark places. As some of you know even looking at your phone when you wake up during the middle of the night can hurt your eyes.... Take that 500-1000 lumen light against a mirror/white wall and tell me that's not brighter than your cell phone. It's how you plan to use it.

Agreed.  If I'm making entry with a buddy, hell yes I want to click on a 500 lumen light and search the house.  But if it's me versus one or more home intruders, I'm not going to do that because it broadcasts my position and movements.

I've never had too much gun, too much money, too much ammo, or too much light.  I find the "issue" of inside blindness caused by bright white light to be a manufactured issue.  I'm with Pat on light use based on my experience.  He who has the most light, wins the light battle and has a big leg up on the gun fight.  YMMV.

When it's dark in your house, let your eyes adjust for 10 minutes.  Stand at the top of your hallway (or in the doorway to a room) and turn your light on for one second to get your bearings and survey the area.  Turn the light off.  You'll see it's not a manufactured issue.

I think it a situational issue. What I need for observation across a two trunk lids and a hood in the middle of the night might be different than what I need working an interior space. What I don't need is a light with various settings/features (call me simple). What I can do is understand I have a barn burner and use techniques (indirect lighting) that accommodate the use of the "big" in a situation that calls for a "small". I don't think lights are fight winners, stopping the threat is a fight winner. I have been on the receiving end and know of other guys who were on the receiving end of fire laid out by bad guys who were not impressed with our "massively overpowering" burst of light.

Bottom line- you gotta see.

A 60 watt light bulb is 800 lumens. There are many times we are not blinded by the simple act of flipping on a switch , while sometimes it can take a bit to adjust. Who knows if there are also individual physiological factors at play as well. I've done tons of entries and building searches, some in large structures, and lots in small tight ones. Not once have I said my light is too bright. I have said I don't have enough light. I use 500 lumen lights on both my handgun and carbine. I prefer not to limit my ability to respond. Too many people also practice obsolete techniques and don't recognize when they aren't using lights to their advantage. You can lose a gunfight pretty quick by not using it.

I ran through my house with a 500 lumen SF Fury.  To be honest, I found it perfect for my needs, even in the narrow hallways.  It's not even close to "too bright".

After waking up while your eyes are adjusted to the dark?

BTDT and don't find an issue.  Trying to titrate light output to each situation is a loser in my book of the real world.  Knowing how/when to use light properly to directly or indirectly light up various spaces is a training issue.  Again, don't find any improvement by having less light available.  I have 500 lumen lights on most of my first out guns long or short.  I strongly agree with the instructor above who said simple lights are better.  I don't fool around with multi output modes/settings on any defensive light.  Just another failure mechanism.

I have hard zero issues with the so called to much white light  bullshit even after being night adapted   in white rooms  with 500 or 1k lumen lights    in small spaces  i did a demo in a standard white residential bathroom  in complete darkness with a1k lumen fury  no one was effected by it to the point they couldn't see or engage  threats...

to each is own  the final answer is this no one i know who has ever used a white light in a shooting has ever said had enough light... its a lot of Bullshit about nothing to be honest    the light has to be as capable as the gun its on and the  skill set of the user...

a lotos it also has to do with the reflector and the coloration of the light and what is looks like.....in what wavelength

also the lumens are also absorbed a lot by environment  indoors and out   dust rain dirt snow etc... in that case more is better  also the cloud of gases and carbon etc  after firing   there is more to it than just light

yes it is  having used lights in a lot of houses and searches and in FOF  its not all equal, not al house are white walls dark colored walls absorb a lot of light

not everyone can afford or use NVG gear   The world is not made up of Military TTPs either
I have yet too be blinded by white light in white room  with a 500 lumen or 1k  light that rendered me ineffective  
Lights will get you shot at just like being shot at in the day light   you cant move if you cant see you cant fight what you cant see the average person cant and won't use NVG gear or  afford it or time in its proper use

if an lets say  has to use a carbine in an indoor long range  shooting  Mall or school etc   how much light is needed?   how about in a rural outdoor setting...or maybe long approaches...
a lot of it is also based  on the spill or throw of the light i have 500 lumen scout fury light that isn't   an issue  it has a lot of flood   great room to room light

how about indoor to outdoor transitions to defeat backlighting,
how about getting through window glass on structures
how about vehicles with window tint
long approaches  to buildings and vehicles

Now compare solo to group of  shooters on the line vs a single shooter and single light output vs 20 guys on a line

Positive ID is critical in LEO/CIVI world vs firing back at a bunch of shitheads in the desert

Light are and always be subjective based on who and what TTPs
seeing is the issue without being able to see we cannot process the info we need to do work and when dark holes hide threats the beam spill and throw are critical do see not only close but  deep you may shoot a person at 10 yards in a dark hall but have his buddy  standing  another 25-35 yards deep in that same hall in the shadows   i have seen this time and time again and as well as roll playing in FOF where people have missed or miss identified  or totally  not seen  me or others

We get it Steve you are like a Moth to a flame and love that light.

I however train alot with NVG's have used them overseas and have seen how light can aid you, as well as really fuck you over if you use to much to often. I'd be curious to see how you stack up against me in a FOF scenario you using your gear and TTP's and myself using mine. Of course w'd drink beer and talk mad shit to eachother after it was all said and done during our debreif.
I have done several session of FOF recently and seen and been the recipeint of many UTM rounds by utilizing a light improperly and too much/too bright.

you know me brother and i love as such   and i value your thoughts and you know I'm down for it  can i use my goggles and kit too or do i get white light only

Oh now you want to go dark all of a sudden?

Nope but when i wipeout your tubes with my  10x dominator  i don't want to hear any crying

If you're blinding yourself off drywall, some more training would likely be in order.

It's not like I'm standing there two feet from some drywall and intentionally blinding myself

I tired that.  As long as the first time I activate it at thigh level I cope pretty quickly.

Somehow I doubt youll get me before i getyou if Ive got Nods,whether indoor or outdoors bud

I'm with you that the newer bright lights are to much indoors (especially when using a RDS). My preference is 150-250 lumens.

You never know but most likely   or i bring mine and a drone

what RDS are you using that won't let you adjust to the level  of light your using