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6/17/2013 4:21:35 PM
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Buford
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Posted: 7/16/2012 5:50:52 PM

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Let's say that you had an opportunity to build a 3 day training course for pistol and carbine. The shooters will all be experienced - that is to say that no one will be picking up a weapon for the first time, but the experience levels will be somewhat varied. Most of the experience has come from competitive shooting (3 gun, pistol, carbine matches) over the previous 4 years. What would you do?
chwi548
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Posted: 7/16/2012 6:59:17 PM
Depends....What's the focus? What skills are needed to be developed? Who's being trained? Your question is far too broad.
Buford
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Posted: 7/16/2012 7:20:11 PM
Yes, very broad. But that's what we've got... a very broad, clean slate. You see, we've been given the opportunity to spend a few days at a training facility and we were asked "What do you want to do?". Well, because we all have varying experience levels and probably all would like to focus on certain things for our own benefit, I thought I would post up here and see if I could get some objective input. If I had to narrow it down I would say that we all want to come out of the other side of this being better shots (accuracy and speed) with both weapons. None of this group have ever attended formal training so we're in the first stage of discovery... we don't know what we don't know.
chwi548
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Posted: 7/17/2012 10:28:01 AM
Sounds like realistically, no formal training means you need to start from the beginning. 4 years of experience without training means lots of bad habits they may not know they have. Fundamentals. If they don't know what they don't know, then you've pretty much got your answer on what training needs to have.

A bunch of guys shooting competition or games will have different needs than guys shooting for defense, so structure the drills accordingly. No need to do drills that involve partners or tactics. Movement and cover drills will have differences, and mindset differences will play a huge part in how drills are perceived or presented.
Buford
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Posted: 7/17/2012 10:58:10 AM
Good points. I figure the morning sessions for each day would be good to have as fundamental focus time. One day on pistol and the next day on rifle. Day 3 can be all execution if we pay attention on the previous two days.
KingRat
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Posted: 7/17/2012 12:16:46 PM
Consult with the instructors where you will be training. They should be able to recommend courses suited to your background and experience.
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lane5000
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Posted: 7/17/2012 12:30:00 PM
Host a reputable instructor.

Short of that, design your time around isolated fundamentals (hitting a 1" paster 5x at 3-5 yards) and firearm manipulation skills (draws), then begin to combine those skills into chains (draw from the holster and hit the paster), and finally start putting it on the clock (draw from the holster and put two hits on a 1" paster in 3 seconds). Track each person's performance and it will be very evident where the improvements are and what the weak areas are.

Also, throw in fun stuff like an impromptu carbine/handgun stage to liven things up.

TMA
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Posted: 7/17/2012 1:39:41 PM
Originally Posted By Buford:
Yes, very broad. But that's what we've got... a very broad, clean slate. You see, we've been given the opportunity to spend a few days at a training facility and we were asked "What do you want to do?". Well, because we all have varying experience levels and probably all would like to focus on certain things for our own benefit, I thought I would post up here and see if I could get some objective input. If I had to narrow it down I would say that we all want to come out of the other side of this being better shots (accuracy and speed) with both weapons. None of this group have ever attended formal training so we're in the first stage of discovery... we don't know what we don't know.


Answering your question is next to impossible without knowing why the students are going to attend your class. What are the students expecting to learn, why did they decide to attend.

From your description of their experience, they may want to learn how to play gun games more effectively (place higher in a competition). If that is the case, I would run the range cold (just like they are used to) and I would teach the basics of: stance, sight alignment & trigger manipulation, along with gun handling (draws, reloads, malfunction clearances & gun transitions).

Most people without good formal training will point a handgun at themselves during either the draw (weak hand in front of the handgun) and/or during the reholster. Most people who accidently shoot themselves at the range will do it during the holstering process (finger on the trigger). The second most common self inflicted gunshot wound is during the draw (weak hand in front of the muzzle). Working from a holster is so dangerous that the NRA did not allow its certified instructors to teach non-LEO students how to use a holster until just a few years ago and even then it is only taught in their most advanced non-LEO class (Personal Protection Outside the Home).

Depending on the students experience level and needs, I might also work in lateral movement. And all of this would be predicated on a 180 degree gun gamer range philosophy.

If for some reason the students want to learn about self defense (as opposed to gun games), I would have the range go hot the first time the class went to the firing line and the class would stay hot until they went home at the end of the day. All guns would always be hot (its up to the student to keep their gun loaded and ready to go). The class would carry loaded rifles and pistols during breaks & lunch. Making a range hot, will freak the gamers out. A lot of their sloppy cold range gun handling habits will no longer work or be allowed. A sling is required when carrying a loaded (hot) rifle all day, some of them may have never used a sling and will have no idea how to use it. An emphasis on not playing with (touching) their guns while off of the firing line and constant muzzle awareness will be an extremely difficult change for most of them to adjust to at first.

Then I would work on the same things I would with the gun gamers, but I would do away with all of the gamer rules. Emphasis on not getting shot by a BG as opposed to going fast; shoot on the move and reload behind cover (not the other way around like they may be used to). I would also (if the students are advanced enough) work on 360 degree range philosophy where students with loaded/drawn guns are moving behind, around other students during some of the exercises. Students would turn and face up range (back to the targets) with a loaded gun in their hands while checking their 6 for additional threats. This will require a high level of muzzle awareness and may be beyond their abilities. The only way I know of doing this safely is by using some form of SUL.

YMMV
I may have totally missed what you are asking for, if I have feel free to ignore my response.
My response is based on the idea that you are the instructor setting the class up, not a potential student asking them to teach you something useful.
Buford
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Posted: 7/17/2012 5:40:00 PM
Very good feedback, TMA. One point of correction is that I will in fact be a student at the facility and not an instructor. The instructor will be provided by the range.
TMA
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Posted: 7/18/2012 11:46:09 AM
[Last Edit: 7/18/2012 11:55:58 AM by TMA]
OK, you are one of the potential students and the range is going to provide third party instruction for 3 days.

If you can determine who the instructor will be and can get his contact information, I would call (or e-mail) him and talk about your desires and his capabilities (& teaching style). Most professional instructors have their own routine (their way of teaching things) and will probably be resistant to teaching things differently than they normally do. I would not ask a Weaver stance instructor to teach me the Isosceles stance. But most instructors also have way more material than they can teach in a couple of weeks, let alone 3 days.

If I were you I would contact the instructor and find out what he teaches (say he teaches: A, B, C, D, E & F) and what he thinks the class should be taught. Then I would talk to the other potential students to get a consensus on what they want to learn. Say they decide they want to learn: B, D & F (with the emphasis on D). Go back to the instructor and discuss with him what you are thinking. He may tell you he can touch on half a day of A, teach a day of B and a day & a half of D in the time available to the class, but he does not have enough time to cover all of the material (nor does he feel comfortable skipping A).

I think you get the idea of the process I am suggesting. The class may not get exactly what they think they want, but they will get to pick from the instructors material.

Be aware the instructor may not let you skip some material (say A) to go directly to D. In my case I will not teach a student an AR carbine class without teaching at least an introductory pistol class to them because my rifle material parallels my pistol material. My pistol master grip, finger in register, and malfunction clearances are modified only slightly for the AR carbine, therefore it is easier to teach rifle to somebody who already knows the pistol handling methods.

YMMV
Good luck and have fun.

ETA:
Nothing I teach was created by me. It was all stolen from men who are much wiser and more experienced than I. My only hope is that I always properly credit them as the materrials source and never infer I created it.
Buford
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Posted: 7/19/2012 4:14:57 PM
Copy that. Good food for thought. I'll put someting together and pass it by the instructor to see what he has to say. Thanks.