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samuse
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Posted: 10/28/2011 8:19:24 PM
[Last Edit: 10/28/2011 8:54:09 PM by samuse]

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
I got this email today and thought I'd share...


[Dtiquips] "Willingness" is a state of mind. Readiness is a statment of fact!

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28 Oct 11

"None are so sure of themselves as those who tell us fables"

Michel De Montaigne

Today, in a local restaurant in VA where we stopped for breakfast, there
was prominently posted a large, group photo. In it, twenty-five American
soldiers, in full battle-regalia, somewhere in the Middle East, pose, all
smiling.

Each soldier is seen carrying an M4. None has a magazine inserted! In
fact, no magazine is visible in the photo. One soldier can be seen also
wearing an M9 pistol. It is not clear from the photo, but it is probably a
safe bet no magazine is inserted in it either!

Interestingly, all dust-covers are dutifully closed, but gaping magazine
wells are, of course, wide-open, negating any benefit of having
ejection-ports sealed!

To a man, they look naive, unprepared, unloaded, sterile, as if they all
think they're on vacation! They surely don't look anything like Operators
who know what they're about. Some day, they'll all be ashamed to have
appeared in that photo!

For one, I will never allow myself to photographed carrying a gun, any kind
of gun (indeed, any kind of weapon!) that is obviously unloaded/unready,
particularly when I'm in an area of active fighting! It would be proof
positive that I am not serious and have scant regard for my own life, much less
my mission. In honoring our mighty ancestors, such things do neither us,
nor our Nation, any good service.

When someone says to you, "... and you're safe here," reach for your gun
(which needs to be always close at hand, and ever-ready)!

"Any 'bear-hunter' who thinks he knows what a bear will do next- is
already in trouble!"

Elmer Keith

/John
MTNmyMag
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Posted: 10/28/2011 8:37:13 PM
Screw you John
DesignatedMarksman
To the everlasting glory of the Infantry...
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Posted: 10/28/2011 8:49:41 PM
RESIST
"The cold, unforgiving fist of reality craters the gut of another incompetent loon."- mhoffman
machinegunseabee
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Posted: 10/28/2011 9:57:47 PM
Well I guess he has never heard of following orders.

Holy fuck do I need to magazine inserted at all times? I should go around in condition one all day for no reason just because? Really? Dude has no concept of reality and how some people are just fucking stupid so we need all these safety rules about firearms in the military?

If those dudes were in danger at that moment there would have not been a posed picture to take.
dport
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Posted: 10/29/2011 9:47:13 AM

This is a clear case of a trainer who is trying to stay relevant and is appealing to those who have never served. He's giving his prospective customer base something they can latch onto that makes them "better" than those soldiers in the picture.

It's probably moderately effective and disgusting at the same time.
It follows than as certain as that night succeeds the day, that without a decisive naval force we can do nothing definitive, and with it, everything honorable and glorious.
~ President George Washington
ColtRifle
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Posted: 10/29/2011 10:07:52 AM
I guess he hasn't spent much time in the current conflict!! Carrying a weapon fully loaded is not needed in most areas. All areas of the middle east that I am aware of require carrying at least 1 magazine on your person with your weapon and only some require carrying the weapon with a loaded mag inserted.

He needs to educate himself on what's going on.
DrMark
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Posted: 10/29/2011 10:09:01 AM
He thinks our troops should be serious and prepared? I agree.

He thinks they are not, based on one picture he saw in a restaurant? With this I cannot agree.

I think our warfighters are in many ways better prepared and better equipped than they've ever been. I'm not going to let a picture of a relaxed, smiling Soldier convince me otherwise.

Merrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
echofivekilo
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Posted: 10/29/2011 11:30:56 PM
Originally Posted By DrMark:
He thinks our troops should be serious and prepared? I agree.

He thinks they are not, based on one picture he saw in a restaurant? With this I cannot agree.

I think our warfighters are in many ways better prepared and better equipped than they've ever been. I'm not going to let a picture of a relaxed, smiling Soldier convince me otherwise.



Well said.

Guys that I know and respect have trained with John Farnam and have had nothing but good things to say about him. However, his comments there are a bit out of line I think.

Improving the workplace through reason and discourse... and, of course, PT belts.
Jarhead_22
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Posted: 11/3/2011 10:17:18 AM
It's easy to talk shit about guys in Iraq when you're safe in Colorado.

John has never passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB, so his opinion on this matter is without value.
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SSeric02
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Posted: 11/3/2011 12:04:33 PM
Originally Posted By DrMark:
He thinks our troops should be serious and prepared? I agree.

He thinks they are not, based on one picture he saw in a restaurant? With this I cannot agree.

I think our warfighters are in many ways better prepared and better equipped than they've ever been. I'm not going to let a picture of a relaxed, smiling Soldier convince me otherwise.



Yep.

He has made an ass out of himself with his assumptions based on a single picture, the details and circumstances he can't possibly know.
dookie1481
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Posted: 11/3/2011 12:35:27 PM
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
It's easy to talk shit about guys in Iraq when you're safe in Colorado.

John has never passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB, so his opinion on this matter is without value.


He has 3 Purple Hearts.
RenegadeX
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Posted: 11/3/2011 12:41:32 PM
[Last Edit: 11/3/2011 12:49:22 PM by Jarhead_22]
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:

John has never passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB, so his opinion on this matter is without value.

He served in VN.

After graduating from Cornell College with a BA in Biology, I entered the US Marine Corps Officer Candidate Program. After being commissioned a Second Lieutenant, I was sent to Vietnam as an infantry platoon leader.For the next fifty-one days, I was involved in heavy fighting and was awarded three Purple Hearts.I served the remainder of my active duty time in the United States, training Marines.I remained in the Reserves and went on active duty several times per year until I retired in 1987.My branch is still infantry, and my rank at retirement was major.

- please excuse the unintentional edit. I meant to quote.
Jarhead_22
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Posted: 11/3/2011 12:50:01 PM
[Last Edit: 11/3/2011 12:57:10 PM by Jarhead_22]
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:

John has never passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB, so his opinion on this matter is without value.

He served in VN.

After graduating from Cornell College with a BA in Biology, I entered the US Marine Corps Officer Candidate Program. After being commissioned a Second Lieutenant, I was sent to Vietnam as an infantry platoon leader.For the next fifty-one days, I was involved in heavy fighting and was awarded three Purple Hearts.I served the remainder of my active duty time in the United States, training Marines.I remained in the Reserves and went on active duty several times per year until I retired in 1987.My branch is still infantry, and my rank at retirement was major.

And I thank him for his service in that war. The policy in Iraq and Afghanistan is condition zero weapons on board the FOB unless you're force pro. You'd think he'd know that.

For one, I will never allow myself to photographed carrying a gun, any kind
of gun (indeed, any kind of weapon!) that is obviously unloaded/unready,
particularly when I'm in an area of active fighting! It would be proof
positive that I am not serious and have scant regard for my own life, much less
my mission. In honoring our mighty ancestors, such things do neither us,
nor our Nation, any good service.

It would be proof positive that he obeys the orders of the officers appointed above him.

Maybe he ought to talk shit about CENTCOM rather than the guys in the picture he saw.
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John_Wayne777
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Posted: 11/4/2011 11:14:38 AM
Regs have to be obeyed. If they were out on patrol like that, sure...that's a problem.

If they were complying with standing orders on a base designed to protect people from themselves then it's kind of silly to blame them. If the blame is because they allowed themselves to be photographed with unloaded weapons...well...I doubt they give a fuck what anyone thinks about their picture being taken with weapons some general said they had to leave unloaded.
It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. - George Washington

If you don't put down that gun and you blink, you will die in total darkness. - Jelly Bryce
rike
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Posted: 11/4/2011 11:21:46 AM
John is going to hurt some feelings here.

I hate that, it makes me sad.
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markfall
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Posted: 11/4/2011 11:39:49 AM
[Last Edit: 11/4/2011 11:40:19 AM by markfall]
He can go fly a kite. You aren't allowed to have inserted mags on most bases, and these soldiers have no say in the matter. God forbid someone takes a fucking photo. He should shut the fuck up. This Isn't Nam. Things have changed as to how you are allowed to carry your weapon on bases, but calling these soldiers complacent is fucking ridiculous.
We only got two things from prohibition: the NFA of 1934 and NASCAR.

and I hate both.
Texkaw
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Posted: 11/4/2011 11:42:28 AM
Originally Posted By dookie1481:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
It's easy to talk shit about guys in Iraq when you're safe in Colorado.

John has never passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB, so his opinion on this matter is without value.


He has 3 Purple Hearts.


So does John Kerry.
markfall
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Posted: 11/4/2011 12:28:00 PM

Originally Posted By Texkaw:
Originally Posted By dookie1481:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
It's easy to talk shit about guys in Iraq when you're safe in Colorado.

John has never passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB, so his opinion on this matter is without value.


He has 3 Purple Hearts.


So does John Kerry.

Oh snap!
We only got two things from prohibition: the NFA of 1934 and NASCAR.

and I hate both.
wvusoldier217
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Posted: 11/4/2011 12:54:07 PM
while I agree with his assertion that an unloaded weapon in a combat theater is, in my mind (as an 11A) hard to understand. However, in speaking with officers in other branches of the army, and of the armed services while here is Iraq, it is justified. If you allow all the 11B's and 18 series guys to carry L&L, you pretty much have to let the air force female who fills out paperwork do the same. Its a training issue, plain and simple. Not all MOS's or Services place a high enough level of importance on proper weapons handling, so you have them go weapons green for safety. Same as the retarded fucking PT belt! someone figured out you are more likely to get run over than picked off by an enemy sniper while on post.

I currently work on a small, controlled, "special" compound where you are expected to carry a loaded weapon at all times, however when we journey over to the conventional forces area, we have to play by their rules. It feels weird unloading you weapon in a war zone, but orders are orders.

BTW: I AM NOT "SPECIAL" so please, don't think me a poser, I just work for the "special" guys
"Politicians always seem to get more troops killed than our enemies can manage. Fuck be upon them."-thebeekeeper1
dookie1481
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Posted: 11/4/2011 12:59:33 PM
Originally Posted By markfall:

Originally Posted By Texkaw:
Originally Posted By dookie1481:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
It's easy to talk shit about guys in Iraq when you're safe in Colorado.

John has never passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB, so his opinion on this matter is without value.


He has 3 Purple Hearts.


So does John Kerry.

Oh snap!


Wow, fucking ARFCOM strikes again.

His remark was a non sequitur. I was replying to the comment alluding to him having never been in combat.
Jarhead_22
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Posted: 11/4/2011 5:17:08 PM
Originally Posted By dookie1481:
Originally Posted By markfall:

Originally Posted By Texkaw:
Originally Posted By dookie1481:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
It's easy to talk shit about guys in Iraq when you're safe in Colorado.

John has never passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB, so his opinion on this matter is without value.


He has 3 Purple Hearts.


So does John Kerry.

Oh snap!


Wow, fucking ARFCOM strikes again.

His remark was a non sequitur. I was replying to the comment alluding to him having never been in combat.

Having never met the man or done any research on him, I had no idea whether or not he was ever in combat. That's why I said "passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB", meaning in Iraq. CENTCOM rules apply, and of course he would know that if he had ever been there.
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dookie1481
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Posted: 11/4/2011 9:52:48 PM
[Last Edit: 11/4/2011 9:53:15 PM by dookie1481]
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Originally Posted By dookie1481:
Originally Posted By markfall:

Originally Posted By Texkaw:
Originally Posted By dookie1481:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
It's easy to talk shit about guys in Iraq when you're safe in Colorado.

John has never passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB, so his opinion on this matter is without value.


He has 3 Purple Hearts.


So does John Kerry.

Oh snap!


Wow, fucking ARFCOM strikes again.

His remark was a non sequitur. I was replying to the comment alluding to him having never been in combat.

Having never met the man or done any research on him, I had no idea whether or not he was ever in combat. That's why I said "passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB", meaning in Iraq. CENTCOM rules apply, and of course he would know that if he had ever been there.


I was referring to the other comments and their lack of relevance to anything. I was referring to the tards that dogpile with comments having nothing to do with anything.

Love the avatar, BTW.
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Posted: 11/4/2011 10:15:36 PM
Originally Posted By markfall:
He can go fly a kite. You aren't allowed to have inserted mags on most bases, and these soldiers have no say in the matter. God forbid someone takes a fucking photo. He should shut the fuck up. This Isn't Nam. THERE ARE RULES! Things have changed as to how you are allowed to carry your weapon on bases, but calling these soldiers complacent is fucking ridiculous.





Farnham's critique of the condition of the soldier's weapons is sound. However it should have been directed at the leadership - not the individual soldiers. If soldiers cannot be trusted to safely carry loaded weapons in a warzone, it is a training issue and a leadership issue.



dport
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Posted: 11/4/2011 10:25:52 PM
Originally Posted By wvusoldier217:
while I agree with his assertion that an unloaded weapon in a combat theater is, in my mind (as an 11A) hard to understand. However, in speaking with officers in other branches of the army, and of the armed services while here is Iraq, it is justified. If you allow all the 11B's and 18 series guys to carry L&L, you pretty much have to let the air force female who fills out paperwork do the same. Its a training issue, plain and simple. Not all MOS's or Services place a high enough level of importance on proper weapons handling, so you have them go weapons green for safety. Same as the retarded fucking PT belt! someone figured out you are more likely to get run over than picked off by an enemy sniper while on post.

I currently work on a small, controlled, "special" compound where you are expected to carry a loaded weapon at all times, however when we journey over to the conventional forces area, we have to play by their rules. It feels weird unloading you weapon in a war zone, but orders are orders.

BTW: I AM NOT "SPECIAL" so please, don't think me a poser, I just work for the "special" guys

You need to re-read your nondisclosure agreement.
It follows than as certain as that night succeeds the day, that without a decisive naval force we can do nothing definitive, and with it, everything honorable and glorious.
~ President George Washington
TheGrayMan
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Posted: 11/5/2011 5:16:35 AM
I would add an "out of his lane" comment here, but I think this thread is going well enough without it.

Orders are orders... idiotic or not.

None of us liked some of the asinine orders we were given... but you suck it up, salute smartly, and do it... lest your actions be prejudicial to good order and discipline.
"Look wise, say nothing, and grunt. Speech was given to conceal thought."

- Sir William Osler -
juan223
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Posted: 11/6/2011 12:36:42 AM
Can anyone confirm that these were the ROE's in place when the terrs attacked the USMC barracks?

Beirut White Card ROE: September 1982 - October 1983

1. When on the post, mobile or foot patrol, keep loaded magazine in weapon, bolt closed, weapon on safe, no round in the chamber.

2. Do not chamber a round unless told to do so by a commissioned offiecer unles you must act in immediate self-defense where deadly force is authorized.

3. Keep ammo for crew served weapons readily available but not loaded. Weapons on safe.

4. Call local forces to assist in self-defense effort. Notify headquarters.

5. Use only minimum degree of force to accomplish any mission.

6. Stop the use of force when it is no longer needed to accomplish the mission.

7. If you receive effective hostile fire, direct your fire at the source. If possible, use friendly snipers.

8. Respect civilian property; do not attack it unless absolutely necessary to protect friendly forces.

9. Protect innocent civilians from harm.

10. Respect and protect recognized medical agencies such as Red Cross and Red Crescent, etc.


––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––-

Beirut Blue Card ROE: May 1983 - October 1983

Rules of Engagement for American and British Embassy External Security Forces

1. Loaded magazines will be in weapons at all times when on post, bolt closed, weapon on safe. No round will be in the chamber.

2. Round will be chambered only when intending to fire.

3. Weapon will be fired only under the following circumstances:

a. A hostile act has been committed.

(1) A hostile act is defined as rounds fired at the embassy, embassy personnel, embassy vehicle, or Marine sentries.

(2) The response will be proportional.

(3) The response will cease when attack ceases.

(4) There will be no pursuit by fire.

(5) A hostile act from a vehicle is when it crosses the established barricade. First fire to disable the vehicle and apprehend occupants. If the vehicle cannot be stopped, fire on the occupants.

(6) A hostile act from an individual or group of individuals is present when they cross the barricade and will not stop after warnings in Arabic and French. If they do not stop fire at them.

4. Well aimed fire will be used; weapons will not be placed on automatic.

5. Care will be taken to avoid civilian casualties.

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