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1/14/2017 8:11:35 PM
Posted: 10/28/2011 3:19:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2011 3:54:09 PM EST by samuse]
I got this email today and thought I'd share...


[Dtiquips] "Willingness" is a state of mind. Readiness is a statment of fact!

TO: 1 recipient
Show Details
Message body
28 Oct 11

"None are so sure of themselves as those who tell us fables"

Michel De Montaigne

Today, in a local restaurant in VA where we stopped for breakfast, there
was prominently posted a large, group photo. In it, twenty-five American
soldiers, in full battle-regalia, somewhere in the Middle East, pose, all
smiling.

Each soldier is seen carrying an M4. None has a magazine inserted! In
fact, no magazine is visible in the photo. One soldier can be seen also
wearing an M9 pistol. It is not clear from the photo, but it is probably a
safe bet no magazine is inserted in it either!

Interestingly, all dust-covers are dutifully closed, but gaping magazine
wells are, of course, wide-open, negating any benefit of having
ejection-ports sealed!

To a man, they look naive, unprepared, unloaded, sterile, as if they all
think they're on vacation! They surely don't look anything like Operators
who know what they're about. Some day, they'll all be ashamed to have
appeared in that photo!

For one, I will never allow myself to photographed carrying a gun, any kind
of gun (indeed, any kind of weapon!) that is obviously unloaded/unready,
particularly when I'm in an area of active fighting! It would be proof
positive that I am not serious and have scant regard for my own life, much less
my mission. In honoring our mighty ancestors, such things do neither us,
nor our Nation, any good service.

When someone says to you, "... and you're safe here," reach for your gun
(which needs to be always close at hand, and ever-ready)!

"Any 'bear-hunter' who thinks he knows what a bear will do next- is
already in trouble!"

Elmer Keith

/John
Link Posted: 10/28/2011 3:37:13 PM EST
Screw you John
Link Posted: 10/28/2011 3:49:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2011 4:57:47 PM EST
Well I guess he has never heard of following orders.

Holy fuck do I need to magazine inserted at all times? I should go around in condition one all day for no reason just because? Really? Dude has no concept of reality and how some people are just fucking stupid so we need all these safety rules about firearms in the military?

If those dudes were in danger at that moment there would have not been a posed picture to take.
Link Posted: 10/29/2011 4:47:13 AM EST

This is a clear case of a trainer who is trying to stay relevant and is appealing to those who have never served. He's giving his prospective customer base something they can latch onto that makes them "better" than those soldiers in the picture.

It's probably moderately effective and disgusting at the same time.
Link Posted: 10/29/2011 5:07:52 AM EST
I guess he hasn't spent much time in the current conflict!! Carrying a weapon fully loaded is not needed in most areas. All areas of the middle east that I am aware of require carrying at least 1 magazine on your person with your weapon and only some require carrying the weapon with a loaded mag inserted.

He needs to educate himself on what's going on.
Link Posted: 10/29/2011 5:09:01 AM EST
He thinks our troops should be serious and prepared? I agree.

He thinks they are not, based on one picture he saw in a restaurant? With this I cannot agree.

I think our warfighters are in many ways better prepared and better equipped than they've ever been. I'm not going to let a picture of a relaxed, smiling Soldier convince me otherwise.

Link Posted: 10/29/2011 6:30:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By DrMark:
He thinks our troops should be serious and prepared? I agree.

He thinks they are not, based on one picture he saw in a restaurant? With this I cannot agree.

I think our warfighters are in many ways better prepared and better equipped than they've ever been. I'm not going to let a picture of a relaxed, smiling Soldier convince me otherwise.



Well said.

Guys that I know and respect have trained with John Farnam and have had nothing but good things to say about him. However, his comments there are a bit out of line I think.

Link Posted: 11/3/2011 5:17:18 AM EST
It's easy to talk shit about guys in Iraq when you're safe in Colorado.

John has never passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB, so his opinion on this matter is without value.
Link Posted: 11/3/2011 7:04:33 AM EST
Originally Posted By DrMark:
He thinks our troops should be serious and prepared? I agree.

He thinks they are not, based on one picture he saw in a restaurant? With this I cannot agree.

I think our warfighters are in many ways better prepared and better equipped than they've ever been. I'm not going to let a picture of a relaxed, smiling Soldier convince me otherwise.



Yep.

He has made an ass out of himself with his assumptions based on a single picture, the details and circumstances he can't possibly know.
Link Posted: 11/3/2011 7:35:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
It's easy to talk shit about guys in Iraq when you're safe in Colorado.

John has never passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB, so his opinion on this matter is without value.


He has 3 Purple Hearts.
Link Posted: 11/3/2011 7:41:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/3/2011 7:49:22 AM EST by Jarhead_22]
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:

John has never passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB, so his opinion on this matter is without value.

He served in VN.

After graduating from Cornell College with a BA in Biology, I entered the US Marine Corps Officer Candidate Program. After being commissioned a Second Lieutenant, I was sent to Vietnam as an infantry platoon leader.For the next fifty-one days, I was involved in heavy fighting and was awarded three Purple Hearts.I served the remainder of my active duty time in the United States, training Marines.I remained in the Reserves and went on active duty several times per year until I retired in 1987.My branch is still infantry, and my rank at retirement was major.

- please excuse the unintentional edit. I meant to quote.
Link Posted: 11/3/2011 7:50:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/3/2011 7:57:10 AM EST by Jarhead_22]
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:

John has never passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB, so his opinion on this matter is without value.

He served in VN.

After graduating from Cornell College with a BA in Biology, I entered the US Marine Corps Officer Candidate Program. After being commissioned a Second Lieutenant, I was sent to Vietnam as an infantry platoon leader.For the next fifty-one days, I was involved in heavy fighting and was awarded three Purple Hearts.I served the remainder of my active duty time in the United States, training Marines.I remained in the Reserves and went on active duty several times per year until I retired in 1987.My branch is still infantry, and my rank at retirement was major.

And I thank him for his service in that war. The policy in Iraq and Afghanistan is condition zero weapons on board the FOB unless you're force pro. You'd think he'd know that.

For one, I will never allow myself to photographed carrying a gun, any kind
of gun (indeed, any kind of weapon!) that is obviously unloaded/unready,
particularly when I'm in an area of active fighting! It would be proof
positive that I am not serious and have scant regard for my own life, much less
my mission. In honoring our mighty ancestors, such things do neither us,
nor our Nation, any good service.

It would be proof positive that he obeys the orders of the officers appointed above him.

Maybe he ought to talk shit about CENTCOM rather than the guys in the picture he saw.
Link Posted: 11/4/2011 6:14:38 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/4/2011 6:21:46 AM EST
John is going to hurt some feelings here.

I hate that, it makes me sad.
Link Posted: 11/4/2011 6:39:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2011 6:40:19 AM EST by markfall]
He can go fly a kite. You aren't allowed to have inserted mags on most bases, and these soldiers have no say in the matter. God forbid someone takes a fucking photo. He should shut the fuck up. This Isn't Nam. Things have changed as to how you are allowed to carry your weapon on bases, but calling these soldiers complacent is fucking ridiculous.
Link Posted: 11/4/2011 6:42:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By dookie1481:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
It's easy to talk shit about guys in Iraq when you're safe in Colorado.

John has never passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB, so his opinion on this matter is without value.


He has 3 Purple Hearts.


So does John Kerry.
Link Posted: 11/4/2011 7:28:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By Texkaw:
Originally Posted By dookie1481:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
It's easy to talk shit about guys in Iraq when you're safe in Colorado.

John has never passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB, so his opinion on this matter is without value.


He has 3 Purple Hearts.


So does John Kerry.

Oh snap!
Link Posted: 11/4/2011 7:54:07 AM EST
while I agree with his assertion that an unloaded weapon in a combat theater is, in my mind (as an 11A) hard to understand. However, in speaking with officers in other branches of the army, and of the armed services while here is Iraq, it is justified. If you allow all the 11B's and 18 series guys to carry L&L, you pretty much have to let the air force female who fills out paperwork do the same. Its a training issue, plain and simple. Not all MOS's or Services place a high enough level of importance on proper weapons handling, so you have them go weapons green for safety. Same as the retarded fucking PT belt! someone figured out you are more likely to get run over than picked off by an enemy sniper while on post.

I currently work on a small, controlled, "special" compound where you are expected to carry a loaded weapon at all times, however when we journey over to the conventional forces area, we have to play by their rules. It feels weird unloading you weapon in a war zone, but orders are orders.

BTW: I AM NOT "SPECIAL" so please, don't think me a poser, I just work for the "special" guys
Link Posted: 11/4/2011 7:59:33 AM EST
Originally Posted By markfall:

Originally Posted By Texkaw:
Originally Posted By dookie1481:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
It's easy to talk shit about guys in Iraq when you're safe in Colorado.

John has never passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB, so his opinion on this matter is without value.


He has 3 Purple Hearts.


So does John Kerry.

Oh snap!


Wow, fucking ARFCOM strikes again.

His remark was a non sequitur. I was replying to the comment alluding to him having never been in combat.
Link Posted: 11/4/2011 12:17:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By dookie1481:
Originally Posted By markfall:

Originally Posted By Texkaw:
Originally Posted By dookie1481:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
It's easy to talk shit about guys in Iraq when you're safe in Colorado.

John has never passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB, so his opinion on this matter is without value.


He has 3 Purple Hearts.


So does John Kerry.

Oh snap!


Wow, fucking ARFCOM strikes again.

His remark was a non sequitur. I was replying to the comment alluding to him having never been in combat.

Having never met the man or done any research on him, I had no idea whether or not he was ever in combat. That's why I said "passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB", meaning in Iraq. CENTCOM rules apply, and of course he would know that if he had ever been there.
Link Posted: 11/4/2011 4:52:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2011 4:53:15 PM EST by dookie1481]
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Originally Posted By dookie1481:
Originally Posted By markfall:

Originally Posted By Texkaw:
Originally Posted By dookie1481:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
It's easy to talk shit about guys in Iraq when you're safe in Colorado.

John has never passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB, so his opinion on this matter is without value.


He has 3 Purple Hearts.


So does John Kerry.

Oh snap!


Wow, fucking ARFCOM strikes again.

His remark was a non sequitur. I was replying to the comment alluding to him having never been in combat.

Having never met the man or done any research on him, I had no idea whether or not he was ever in combat. That's why I said "passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB", meaning in Iraq. CENTCOM rules apply, and of course he would know that if he had ever been there.


I was referring to the other comments and their lack of relevance to anything. I was referring to the tards that dogpile with comments having nothing to do with anything.

Love the avatar, BTW.
Link Posted: 11/4/2011 5:15:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By markfall:
He can go fly a kite. You aren't allowed to have inserted mags on most bases, and these soldiers have no say in the matter. God forbid someone takes a fucking photo. He should shut the fuck up. This Isn't Nam. THERE ARE RULES! Things have changed as to how you are allowed to carry your weapon on bases, but calling these soldiers complacent is fucking ridiculous.





Farnham's critique of the condition of the soldier's weapons is sound. However it should have been directed at the leadership - not the individual soldiers. If soldiers cannot be trusted to safely carry loaded weapons in a warzone, it is a training issue and a leadership issue.



Link Posted: 11/4/2011 5:25:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By wvusoldier217:
while I agree with his assertion that an unloaded weapon in a combat theater is, in my mind (as an 11A) hard to understand. However, in speaking with officers in other branches of the army, and of the armed services while here is Iraq, it is justified. If you allow all the 11B's and 18 series guys to carry L&L, you pretty much have to let the air force female who fills out paperwork do the same. Its a training issue, plain and simple. Not all MOS's or Services place a high enough level of importance on proper weapons handling, so you have them go weapons green for safety. Same as the retarded fucking PT belt! someone figured out you are more likely to get run over than picked off by an enemy sniper while on post.

I currently work on a small, controlled, "special" compound where you are expected to carry a loaded weapon at all times, however when we journey over to the conventional forces area, we have to play by their rules. It feels weird unloading you weapon in a war zone, but orders are orders.

BTW: I AM NOT "SPECIAL" so please, don't think me a poser, I just work for the "special" guys

You need to re-read your nondisclosure agreement.
Link Posted: 11/5/2011 12:16:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/5/2011 7:36:42 PM EST
Can anyone confirm that these were the ROE's in place when the terrs attacked the USMC barracks?

Beirut White Card ROE: September 1982 - October 1983

1. When on the post, mobile or foot patrol, keep loaded magazine in weapon, bolt closed, weapon on safe, no round in the chamber.

2. Do not chamber a round unless told to do so by a commissioned offiecer unles you must act in immediate self-defense where deadly force is authorized.

3. Keep ammo for crew served weapons readily available but not loaded. Weapons on safe.

4. Call local forces to assist in self-defense effort. Notify headquarters.

5. Use only minimum degree of force to accomplish any mission.

6. Stop the use of force when it is no longer needed to accomplish the mission.

7. If you receive effective hostile fire, direct your fire at the source. If possible, use friendly snipers.

8. Respect civilian property; do not attack it unless absolutely necessary to protect friendly forces.

9. Protect innocent civilians from harm.

10. Respect and protect recognized medical agencies such as Red Cross and Red Crescent, etc.


––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––­–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––­–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––-

Beirut Blue Card ROE: May 1983 - October 1983

Rules of Engagement for American and British Embassy External Security Forces

1. Loaded magazines will be in weapons at all times when on post, bolt closed, weapon on safe. No round will be in the chamber.

2. Round will be chambered only when intending to fire.

3. Weapon will be fired only under the following circumstances:

a. A hostile act has been committed.

(1) A hostile act is defined as rounds fired at the embassy, embassy personnel, embassy vehicle, or Marine sentries.

(2) The response will be proportional.

(3) The response will cease when attack ceases.

(4) There will be no pursuit by fire.

(5) A hostile act from a vehicle is when it crosses the established barricade. First fire to disable the vehicle and apprehend occupants. If the vehicle cannot be stopped, fire on the occupants.

(6) A hostile act from an individual or group of individuals is present when they cross the barricade and will not stop after warnings in Arabic and French. If they do not stop fire at them.

4. Well aimed fire will be used; weapons will not be placed on automatic.

5. Care will be taken to avoid civilian casualties.

Link Posted: 11/6/2011 3:36:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By machinegunseabee:
Well I guess he has never heard of following orders.

Holy fuck do I need to magazine inserted at all times? I should go around in condition one all day for no reason just because? Really? Dude has no concept of reality and how some people are just fucking stupid so we need all these safety rules about firearms in the military?

If those dudes were in danger at that moment there would have not been a posed picture to take.


John Farnam is a Marine veteran of the Vietnam war. Wounded 3 times before they shipped him home. The only one of his OCS to survive.
I'd say that qualifys him to have an 'opinion'

I'll bet those service members that were shot down in the safety of a stateside post (Fort Hood) didn't feel the need to have loaded guns on them either.
Link Posted: 11/9/2011 2:00:45 PM EST
What does all this "special" nonsense have to do with the discussion other than fulfilling your own ego? It must be so "special" that you are telling everyone on AR15 about it, hmmmmm. Did I hear BDOC calling somewhere?

Mr. Farnam was trying to make a point about mindset and preparedness, good thought, poor execution and even worse example.
Link Posted: 11/15/2011 7:35:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:

John has never passed through a checkpoint going into or out of an FOB, so his opinion on this matter is without value.

He served in VN.

After graduating from Cornell College with a BA in Biology, I entered the US Marine Corps Officer Candidate Program. After being commissioned a Second Lieutenant, I was sent to Vietnam as an infantry platoon leader.For the next fifty-one days, I was involved in heavy fighting and was awarded three Purple Hearts.I served the remainder of my active duty time in the United States, training Marines.I remained in the Reserves and went on active duty several times per year until I retired in 1987.My branch is still infantry, and my rank at retirement was major.

And I thank him for his service in that war. The policy in Iraq and Afghanistan is condition zero weapons on board the FOB unless you're force pro. You'd think he'd know that.

For one, I will never allow myself to photographed carrying a gun, any kind
of gun (indeed, any kind of weapon!) that is obviously unloaded/unready,
particularly when I'm in an area of active fighting! It would be proof
positive that I am not serious and have scant regard for my own life, much less
my mission. In honoring our mighty ancestors, such things do neither us,
nor our Nation, any good service.

It would be proof positive that he obeys the orders of the officers appointed above him.

Maybe he ought to talk shit about CENTCOM rather than the guys in the picture he saw.


That's not so in A-stan.

I never went to a single base where I didn't have a full mag in.

Although I know it differs, from place to place, just adding my .02
Link Posted: 12/27/2011 5:29:59 AM EST
Posted by zengunfighter;
John Farnam is a Marine veteran of the Vietnam war. Wounded 3 times before they shipped him home. The only one of his OCS to survive.
I'd say that qualifys him to have an 'opinion'


No it doesn't. Different war, different time, different threats, different ROE. Preparedness levels and weapon status are based on the assessed threat. As he has no idea what the assessed threat is in the area where the photo was taken, he has no right to an opinion. The photo could have been taken in Kuwait or NTC for all he knows. Having done my time in Iraq as a base AT/FP officer, there are plenty of areas where a down graded weapon status is appropriate. When you consider that only 20% of the Army carrys a gun a part of their job and 80% carry one because they are told too, proper assessment of weapons status IS a safety measure.

Just because one is a soldier does not mean they are all trained to Tier 1 level of weapon handling and safety. The base I was at was weapon green inside the FOB except for the FP guys but we were all full battle rattle due to frequent and unpredictable mortar/rocket attacks. Since our assessed threat was indirect fire not direct fire, the weapon status was assigned accordingly.

As someone else mentioned, he assigns shame to the soldiers who are in reality following orders. He directed his comments at soldiers who do not have the authority to arm as they want.
Link Posted: 12/28/2011 7:46:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/28/2011 7:51:45 PM EST by TENN]
John Farnam is as relevant in the firearms training world as muskets and bayonet charges.

He can go self procreate with himself for all I care.




I particularly like his protective layer of karate-fat, gun guy vest, trucker hat, gym coach whistle, and pedo-goggles.

He's probably the kind of guntard that you see wearing East German Army BDU's to a gun show.
Link Posted: 1/21/2012 2:25:54 PM EST
If the photo was taken inside the wire then obviously the guns would be unloaded as per rules regarding loading mags/ chambering rounds over there.

Much ado about nothing IMHO.

How a group photo meant to commemorate a group of men serving in a warzone together can be twisted into some version of "OMG, they are unprepared because they have empty mag wells!" is simply silly.
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