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Posted: 10/30/2009 4:45:39 AM EDT
[#1]
Great post JW!!
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Posted: 10/30/2009 8:09:42 AM EDT
[#2]
Originally Posted By Blackwind:
I'm not sure exactly how courses were paid for us back when I was in, but we had guest instructors all the time come in and teach courses. It was easier then us going "out" somewhere else. Or at least easier to gain approval. Some of the best training I have had....didn't come from military instructors. That's a common statement. If a particular command is switched on and sees a deficiency and cares enough to fix it, they have the ability to do so. The Tier 1 guys bring in outside trainers all the time to help polish their skills...even going so far as to bring in competition shooters to teach them how to run a weapon more efficiently. |
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Posted: 10/30/2009 8:37:21 AM EDT
[#3]
Semper fucking Fi Marine.
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Posted: 10/30/2009 12:29:13 PM EDT
[#4]
Finally had time to carefully read and absorb all of the post.
This young man is truly inspiring and I get a lump in my throat when I think of all that I owe men like him. May God bless him for his service. I am often reminded of these issues when I see someone post that they haven't been to professional training classes, but they "trained in the military". Military training is good for what it is, but it is not anywhere close to professional training classes. I simply don't understand why the military doesn't contract with those that know what they are doing to train military trainers to be able to facilitate excellent training on these subjects. |
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Posted: 10/30/2009 12:32:04 PM EDT
[#5]
Originally Posted By Old_Painless: It's getting better. I had some outstanding carbine course type training while on active duty in 2005. But my platoon sergeant had just come from SOTG and we were a PSD platoon.I simply don't understand why the military doesn't contract with those that know what they are doing to train military trainers to be able to facilitate excellent training on these subjects. |
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Posted: 10/30/2009 12:34:49 PM EDT
[#6]
This guy rocks.
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Posted: 10/30/2009 12:36:30 PM EDT
[#7]
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
It's getting better. I had some outstanding carbine course type training while on active duty in 2005. But my platoon sergeant had just come from SOTG and we were a PSD platoon.
I simply don't understand why the military doesn't contract with those that know what they are doing to train military trainers to be able to facilitate excellent training on these subjects. That's good news. 
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Posted: 10/30/2009 12:38:08 PM EDT
[#8]
TAG
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Posted: 10/30/2009 12:40:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SCIF]
[#9]
...
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Posted: 10/30/2009 12:46:53 PM EDT
[#10]
Thanks for posting that!
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Posted: 10/30/2009 12:47:41 PM EDT
[#11]
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
I simply don't understand why the military doesn't contract with those that know what they are doing to train military trainers to be able to facilitate excellent training on these subjects. Some do. The simple and ugly truth of the matter is that the military doesn't really care about small arms skill as an institution. The Corps prides itself on "Every Marine a Rifleman" but their definition of "Rifleman" is often based on criteria that don't have anything to do with the realities of combat. If within the chain of command there are some switched on individuals then they will do things like bring in an outside trainer, or they'll try to get some training from current/former Tier 1 guys or groups like the AMU or do SOMETHING...anything...above the minimum requirements. ...and even then they'll have an uphill battle because most people, even those in a combat MOS, don't care or worse...think they know it all. I'll quote from another guy who has BTDT and is responsible for trying to train people the right way: While having the leadership on side gives us time and money, it does not solve a different and nasty problem. Right now we have lots of guys that have done multiple tours, and most have been in at least one gunfight. There is a distinct problem with many of these guys now thinking that they are some kind of gunfight-guru because they shot a few rounds back at a few dudes and kicked in a few doors. It isn't the E-1 that is the problem, it's the E-3/E-4 (and in the really bad cases E-5 through E-7) that thinks he knows the game when he barely knows how to fill a magazine. It's the toxic drivel that they spout to others in their unit/class that makes everything harder. They are the ones bitching about spending time doing basic manipulation drills, despite the fact that they suck, only to sit in front of their TV/computer. If they are not quickly identified and harshly dealt with they will infect others with their attitude and lack of discipline. And frankly, there have been too many of them poisoning those with less aware leadership. |
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Posted: 10/30/2009 12:48:11 PM EDT
[#12]
Quite a sobering story! Thanks for posting it JW. And God bless that Marine. This will weigh heavily on my mind during my next trip to the range, and will spur me to get better training...
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Posted: 10/30/2009 12:52:03 PM EDT
[#13]
I think his eval was pretty correct and that training would have made a large difference.
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Posted: 10/30/2009 12:52:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Old_Painless]
[#14]
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
I simply don't understand why the military doesn't contract with those that know what they are doing to train military trainers to be able to facilitate excellent training on these subjects. Some do. The simple and ugly truth of the matter is that the military doesn't really care about small arms skill as an institution. The Corps prides itself on "Every Marine a Rifleman" but their definition of "Rifleman" is often based on criteria that don't have anything to do with the realities of combat. If within the chain of command there are some switched on individuals then they will do things like bring in an outside trainer, or they'll try to get some training from current/former Tier 1 guys or groups like the AMU or do SOMETHING...anything...above the minimum requirements. ...and even then they'll have an uphill battle because most people, even those in a combat MOS, don't care or worse...think they know it all. I'll quote from another guy who has BTDT and is responsible for trying to train people the right way: While having the leadership on side gives us time and money, it does not solve a different and nasty problem. Right now we have lots of guys that have done multiple tours, and most have been in at least one gunfight. There is a distinct problem with many of these guys now thinking that they are some kind of gunfight-guru because they shot a few rounds back at a few dudes and kicked in a few doors. It isn't the E-1 that is the problem, it's the E-3/E-4 (and in the really bad cases E-5 through E-7) that thinks he knows the game when he barely knows how to fill a magazine. It's the toxic drivel that they spout to others in their unit/class that makes everything harder. They are the ones bitching about spending time doing basic manipulation drills, despite the fact that they suck, only to sit in front of their TV/computer. If they are not quickly identified and harshly dealt with they will infect others with their attitude and lack of discipline. And frankly, there have been too many of them poisoning those with less aware leadership. An outstanding observation by the Trainer. As an old police officer once told me, "I see some cops with 5 years experience, and some with one year's experience, five times."
Time does not equal proficiency. And especially, "Been there, done that" doesn't equal proficiency. |
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Posted: 10/30/2009 12:58:06 PM EDT
[#15]
It's pretty sobering how often you go to carbine classes and find military personnel-and I mean rifleman types, not motor pool guys, saying they hadn't been exposed to stuff that most guys like me (ie life long civilians that go to these classes) would assume are basics that everyone in the military knows.
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Posted: 10/30/2009 12:58:42 PM EDT
[#16]
Great story
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Posted: 10/30/2009 1:00:38 PM EDT
[#17]
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
And expecially, "Been there, done that" doesn't equal proficiency. Yup. Somebody can be harder than woodpecker lips and could have a dozen scalps on his wall and still be more messed up than a soup sandwich. |
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USA
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Posted: 10/30/2009 1:15:40 PM EDT
[#18]
Good Post. Very Sobering
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Posted: 10/30/2009 1:24:23 PM EDT
[#19]
Tag.
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USA
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Posted: 10/30/2009 1:34:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: jeffers_mz]
[#20]
No operator here, but I have additional corroboration to add.
At an EAG Tactical class this spring, 3 Infantrymen on tour in Afghanistan somehow got 7 days leave in the US. They spent one of those days driving to this class, one day driving back to whereever they came from, and three days in the class. They had to purchase thier own ammunition for the class. The class fees were paid by them, not by DoD. Their comments were eye-opening. They immediately recognized the advantage of all they were taught in this class, noted that basic training and Army drills did not begin to address these issues, and left class knowing that what they had learned there, above and beyond anything they had been exposed to thru military training, had made a huge difference to their ability to survive a firefight, back in Afgganistan, where they were supposed to return a few days later. Every component error discussed by the OP was also addressed in the class, and every conclusion drawn by the OP is identical with the class instructor's conclusions, as taught during the class. Just reading the original post had me hearing Pat Rogers, standing behind me while I was firing on the 7 yard line, chewing great holes in my ass for fucking up, the exact same way the OP concludes he fucked up. If soldiers on a 7 day pass out of a hot warzone can spend their own time, money, and ammunition on a training class, and leave knowing they not only got their money back out in benefit, but also thinks they now stands much better odds of surviving, even winning a firefight, that is expert opinion enough for me. |
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Posted: 10/30/2009 1:41:34 PM EDT
[#21]
Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:
+1 OST
OST Gotta love a Marine that kicks ass & keeps on kicking! |
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Posted: 10/30/2009 1:51:45 PM EDT
[#22]
Great story, thanks for posting.
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Posted: 10/30/2009 2:12:34 PM EDT
[#23]
TAG.
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Posted: 10/30/2009 3:03:03 PM EDT
[#24]
great post/read.
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Posted: 10/30/2009 3:11:35 PM EDT
[#25]
Originally Posted By jeffers_mz:
No operator here, but I have additional corroboration to add. At an EAG Tactical class this spring, 3 Infantrymen on tour in Afghanistan somehow got 7 days leave in the US. They spent one of those days driving to this class, one day driving back to whereever they came from, and three days in the class. They had to purchase thier own ammunition for the class. The class fees were paid by them, not by DoD. Their comments were eye-opening. They immediately recognized the advantage of all they were taught in this class, noted that basic training and Army drills did not begin to address these issues, and left class knowing that what they had learned there, above and beyond anything they had been exposed to thru military training, had made a huge difference to their ability to survive a firefight, back in Afgganistan, where they were supposed to return a few days later. Every component error discussed by the OP was also addressed in the class, and every conclusion drawn by the OP is identical with the class instructor's conclusions, as taught during the class. Just reading the original post had me hearing Pat Rogers, standing behind me while I was firing on the 7 yard line, chewing great holes in my ass for fucking up, the exact same way the OP concludes he fucked up. If soldiers on a 7 day pass out of a hot warzone can spend their own time, money, and ammunition on a training class, and leave knowing they not only got their money back out in benefit, but also thinks they now stands much better odds of surviving, even winning a firefight, that is expert opinion enough for me. As Aimless mentioned, it's not at all uncommon to see .mil guys show up in a class and be absolutely flabbergasted that they hadn't heard anything presented before. I've seen even SF/SOF guys show up and say "Dude...why aren't we training this way?" |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 10/30/2009 3:36:32 PM EDT
[#26]
Originally Posted By S-1:
BTW... Why the fuck does the USMC still teach to blade towards a target? It's tough to square up given the length of pull on an M16A4 stock. That stock (and A2 sights) were foisted on the Marine Corps by the Rifle Team, according to Pat Rogers (and others.) These same folks have a huge impact on marksmanship training. Unfortunately, there is more to gunfighting than just marksmanship. Mindset and manipulation count, too. It's also tough, without training and a great deal of practice, to use an ACO/RCO in close. Originally Posted By jeffers_mz:
At an EAG Tactical class this spring, 3 Infantrymen on tour in Afghanistan somehow got 7 days leave in the US. They spent one of those days driving to this class, one day driving back to whereever they came from, and three days in the class. They had to purchase thier own ammunition for the class. The class fees were paid by them, not by DoD. Their comments were eye-opening. They immediately recognized the advantage of all they were taught in this class, noted that basic training and Army drills did not begin to address these issues, and left class knowing that what they had learned there, above and beyond anything they had been exposed to thru military training, had made a huge difference to their ability to survive a firefight, back in Afgganistan, where they were supposed to return a few days later. Every component error discussed by the OP was also addressed in the class, and every conclusion drawn by the OP is identical with the class instructor's conclusions, as taught during the class. Just reading the original post had me hearing Pat Rogers, standing behind me while I was firing on the 7 yard line, chewing great holes in my ass for fucking up, the exact same way the OP concludes he fucked up. If soldiers on a 7 day pass out of a hot warzone can spend their own time, money, and ammunition on a training class, and leave knowing they not only got their money back out in benefit, but also thinks they now stands much better odds of surviving, even winning a firefight, that is expert opinion enough for me. I had the same thoughts as those high-lighted in blue. And they were from my first EAG class back in June of 2003, several months after Paul G. had been wounded. The TTPs existed then and were being used in part of the Marine Corps, e.g. First Force Reconnaissance Co. and S.O.T.G. They were not at that time, however, making their way to the Lance Coolie 0311 who wins the wars. Those soldiers must have thought paying Pat for training is much better than paying a life insurance company. They are probably right.
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MO, USA
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Posted: 10/30/2009 3:45:41 PM EDT
[#27]
Originally Posted By nick89302:
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
I've thought long and hard about reproducing that post here, but I think it's too valuable a lesson learned at too high a price not to. Thanks for doing so. There is a course coming up near me that I've wanted to take, but I wasn't really sure if I could afford it. After reading that, my only thought was, "How can I afford not to?" I went to sign up online just now, but can't. I'll have to call tomorrow. I'm trying to think what I can sell, and whether I'm more likely to need this or tires with tread on them 
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Posted: 10/30/2009 4:24:55 PM EDT
[#28]
Outstanding read. A true warrior. I printed it and am going to give it to all the E6s in my unit and all the firearms intructors at work.
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Posted: 10/30/2009 4:25:53 PM EDT
[#29]
JW: That piece was worth a million bucks right there.
John |
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ID, USA
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Posted: 10/30/2009 4:58:49 PM EDT
[#30]
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Wow. I guess some of us just assume certain things are taught in military. Just what I was thinking. Not teaching reloads?!? To a Marine infantryman?!? Damn. |
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ND, USA
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Posted: 10/30/2009 5:17:25 PM EDT
[#31]
Excellent read, and very inspirational. Thank you for the post.
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MO, USA
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Posted: 10/30/2009 6:48:43 PM EDT
[#32]
Tag.
Great read, thank you for posting. And many thanks to this Marine for passing along the hard lessons he learned. |
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Posted: 10/30/2009 9:40:06 PM EDT
[#33]
Originally Posted By ceverett:
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Wow. I guess some of us just assume certain things are taught in military. Just what I was thinking. Not teaching reloads?!? To a Marine infantryman?!? Damn. They taught them...just not the way that most of us who have been exposed to top level training from the best in the training business would think about them. |
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USA
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Posted: 10/30/2009 9:53:04 PM EDT
[#34]
This proves you can take the Marine out of the fight. But you can not take the fight out of the Marine. Awesome read. Hoo-Rah! 4073 |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 11/1/2009 3:36:49 PM EDT
[#35]
Originally Posted By RePp:
thanks for the post that guy is a complete badass. Awesome to see him doing classes and costa helping him. thanks again I saw this on another forum. I argee, what Chris is doing is something special that is great to see. |
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Posted: 11/2/2009 9:57:28 AM EDT
[#36]
Originally Posted By Aimless:
It's pretty sobering how often you go to carbine classes and find military personnel-and I mean rifleman types, not motor pool guys, saying they hadn't been exposed to stuff that most guys like me (ie life long civilians that go to these classes) would assume are basics that everyone in the military knows. +1 I've taken Carbine Courses a few times, and some advanced alumni courses that build upon those foundational skills, and have over 80+ hours in a variety of training. And to attend some of these courses, and meet Marines & Soldiers who WERE fighting on the front lines, and they're telling everybody how they REALLY WISH they could've gotten this training BEFORE being deployed - it's really an eye opener! 
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Posted: 11/2/2009 10:27:07 AM EDT
[#37]
tag
TXL |
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USA
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Posted: 11/2/2009 10:38:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: jeffers_mz]
[#38]
Originally Posted By Submariner:
Originally Posted By S-1:
BTW... Why the fuck does the USMC still teach to blade towards a target? It's tough to square up given the length of pull on an M16A4 stock. That stock (and A2 sights) were foisted on the Marine Corps by the Rifle Team, according to Pat Rogers (and others.) These same folks have a huge impact on marksmanship training. Unfortunately, there is more to gunfighting than just marksmanship. Mindset and manipulation count, too. It's also tough, without training and a great deal of practice, to use an ACO/RCO in close. Originally Posted By jeffers_mz:
At an EAG Tactical class this spring, 3 Infantrymen on tour in Afghanistan somehow got 7 days leave in the US. They spent one of those days driving to this class, one day driving back to whereever they came from, and three days in the class. They had to purchase thier own ammunition for the class. The class fees were paid by them, not by DoD. Their comments were eye-opening. They immediately recognized the advantage of all they were taught in this class, noted that basic training and Army drills did not begin to address these issues, and left class knowing that what they had learned there, above and beyond anything they had been exposed to thru military training, had made a huge difference to their ability to survive a firefight, back in Afgganistan, where they were supposed to return a few days later. Every component error discussed by the OP was also addressed in the class, and every conclusion drawn by the OP is identical with the class instructor's conclusions, as taught during the class. Just reading the original post had me hearing Pat Rogers, standing behind me while I was firing on the 7 yard line, chewing great holes in my ass for fucking up, the exact same way the OP concludes he fucked up. If soldiers on a 7 day pass out of a hot warzone can spend their own time, money, and ammunition on a training class, and leave knowing they not only got their money back out in benefit, but also thinks they now stands much better odds of surviving, even winning a firefight, that is expert opinion enough for me. I had the same thoughts as those high-lighted in blue. And they were from my first EAG class back in June of 2003, several months after Paul G. had been wounded. The TTPs existed then and were being used in part of the Marine Corps, e.g. First Force Reconnaissance Co. and S.O.T.G. They were not at that time, however, making their way to the Lance Coolie 0311 who wins the wars. Those soldiers must have thought paying Pat for training is much better than paying a life insurance company. They are probably right.
Then you can probably hear Pat grinding his teeth, just like I can, because neither you, me, the OP, nor anyone else in this thread has yet mentioned one of the first rules this guy broke....no tac reload after the mag dump into the first bad guy. Sorry, Pat, but a new drill is henceforth SOP on range trips, I'll call them "sevens and twos". Seven rounds center mass, tac reload to mag #2, move to "new contact", then either two COM and no tac reload, or two COM + one to the brainpan, no tac reload, repeat till both mags empty out, just to put me in the habit of freshening up after serious expenditures, and keep me away from tac reloads after only firing a few. Improvements welcome. Edit...on second thought, that's going to be ammo intensive, improvement is possible. One mag marked with duct tape, one without. Two rounds COM, tac reload,then two COM and no reload, keeps me thinking about the situation and whether it is time for a reload after each instance of fire, runs thru more mag changes per round expended, and put ammo to better use too. Additional improvements still welcome. |
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Posted: 11/2/2009 10:47:27 AM EDT
[#39]
Tag for later
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Posted: 11/2/2009 11:02:59 AM EDT
[#40]
I've never tagged before, but I think this is worth it for reading later.
Thanks for posting this. |
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Posted: 11/2/2009 11:19:23 AM EDT
[#41]
This thread is a bit concerning. I've read here many times how all you had to do was read the manual and you could shoot a gun, and have taken a ton of grief in regards to how retarded I was for spending all the time and money I have over the years taking formal classes and training......Now folks are saying it actually IS a good idea?? I'm confused....
 
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
And especially, "Been there, done that" doesn't equal proficiency. Been where? Done what? Did they do it right? (or were they just lucky that day?) Even if right, could they have done it better? |
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Posted: 11/2/2009 10:48:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Templar223]
[#42]
Originally Posted By jeffers_mz:
No operator here, but I have additional corroboration to add. At an EAG Tactical class this spring, 3 Infantrymen on tour in Afghanistan somehow got 7 days leave in the US. They spent one of those days driving to this class, one day driving back to whereever they came from, and three days in the class. They had to purchase thier own ammunition for the class. The class fees were paid by them, not by DoD. Their comments were eye-opening. They immediately recognized the advantage of all they were taught in this class, noted that basic training and Army drills did not begin to address these issues, and left class knowing that what they had learned there, above and beyond anything they had been exposed to thru military training, had made a huge difference to their ability to survive a firefight, back in Afghanistan, where they were supposed to return a few days later. Every component error discussed by the OP was also addressed in the class, and every conclusion drawn by the OP is identical with the class instructor's conclusions, as taught during the class. Just reading the original post had me hearing Pat Rogers, standing behind me while I was firing on the 7 yard line, chewing great holes in my ass for fucking up, the exact same way the OP concludes he fucked up. If soldiers on a 7 day pass out of a hot warzone can spend their own time, money, and ammunition on a training class, and leave knowing they not only got their money back out in benefit, but also thinks they now stands much better odds of surviving, even winning a firefight, that is expert opinion enough for me. Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
As Aimless mentioned, it's not at all uncommon to see .mil guys show up in a class and be absolutely flabbergasted that they hadn't heard anything presented before. I've seen even SF/SOF guys show up and say "Dude...why aren't we training this way?" While I don't think I heard those exact words from those guys (wasn't it four Jeff, not three?) at the EAG class this spring, I heard similar words as Jeff did. Originally Posted By jeffers_mz:
Then you can probably hear Pat grinding his teeth, just like I can, because neither you, me, the OP, nor anyone else in this thread has yet mentioned one of the first rules this guy broke....no tac reload after the mag dump into the first bad guy. Sorry, Pat, but a new drill is henceforth SOP on range trips, I'll call them "sevens and twos". Seven rounds center mass, tac reload to mag #2, move to "new contact", then either two COM and no tac reload, or two COM + one to the brainpan, no tac reload, repeat till both mags empty out, just to put me in the habit of freshening up after serious expenditures, and keep me away from tac reloads after only firing a few. Improvements welcome. Edit...on second thought, that's going to be ammo intensive, improvement is possible. One mag marked with duct tape, one without. Two rounds COM, tac reload,then two COM and no reload, keeps me thinking about the situation and whether it is time for a reload after each instance of fire, runs thru more mag changes per round expended, and put ammo to better use too. Additional improvements still welcome. Amen to that... or you could just load a random number in your mags as we did in part of our rifle class that our group taught this fall. "Surprise" empties come more often when you've only got 4-7 rounds randomly loaded for additional reloading manipulations, transitions and it reinforced the importance of tac reloads because we all know it sucks to run dry half-way through a course of fire. In a real gunfight it can be your life! John |
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Posted: 11/2/2009 11:06:40 PM EDT
[#43]
Was talking to a buddy today about this topic and he asked a pretty good question...."If not classes, is there maybe a book to read in order to share some basic techniques/learn from to active duty personal who are not in special units etc?"
My reaction was to suggest Magpuls DVD's. 
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Posted: 11/6/2009 8:11:38 AM EDT
[#44]
+1 to the Marine who wrote this. Both for his sacrifice, service, and sharing his lessons. God Bless.
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Posted: 11/6/2009 8:14:54 AM EDT
[#45]
tag
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Posted: 11/6/2009 9:22:20 AM EDT
[#46]
This guy doesnt need to be posting on the internet. He needs to be speaking on hour1, day1 of BRM. This might save lives.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 12/13/2009 9:09:40 PM EDT
[#47]
Bump to keep out of archive for a while.
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Posted: 12/15/2009 2:10:34 PM EDT
[#48]
Originally Posted By Templar223:
Bump to keep out of archive for a while. I agree. Having BTDT with a BG in my house @ 03:13 hours, I can assure you that you will goto whatever level of training you have(or level of incompetence if no training). The only thing that was going through my mind in those few seconds was "FRONT SIGHT!!!", "FRONT SIGHT!!!", "WATCH THE FRONT SIGHT!!!" Afterwards when I stopped shaking, I realized how many mistakes I had made and survived only through the grace of G*D. That is why I have an AirSoft pistol and practice in my house. Training > a bunch of safe queens.
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Posted: 12/15/2009 2:18:40 PM EDT
[#49]
I think it took a lot of courage for him to admit his mistake, to tell everyone else about it and then to change it by training.
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Posted: 12/15/2009 2:22:56 PM EDT
[#50]
Thanks for posting this. Should be required reading.
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