Answer to NY SAFE Act - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Answer to NY SAFE Act (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 5/23/2017 9:41:06 AM EDT

A company, Tier5 Solutions, is coming out with a new product for NY and CA that is a drop-in modification to any AR. It converts the mechanical operation from semiauto to manual loading. If it's not a semiauto its not an assault weapon so you can have all the features you want. Its supposed to be schedule for sale sometime in June. They demo it at a range upstate and it worked great. You shoot, the bolt locks back every time. You just need to press the bolt release to load and you shoot again. Best thing its mil-spec so you can use aftermarket ambi bolt release like the Magpul BAD. It cost is under $40. Can't wait for the release. Tier5 Solutions

Posted: 5/23/2017 11:35:54 AM EDT

[#1]

Looks like Tracking Point is coming out with their own device as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV3WqbEymA4

Posted: 5/23/2017 1:57:40 PM EDT

[#2]

I'm almost too embarrassed to ask, but would NYSP write a letter saying these are legal in NY ?

DanG

Posted: 5/23/2017 3:04:59 PM EDT

[#3]

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I'm almost too embarrassed to ask, but would NYSP write a letter saying these are legal in NY ?

DanG

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No, they will not.

Posted: 5/23/2017 3:38:23 PM EDT

[#4]

Blessed be us! NY actually defines what semi-automatic means. According to the NY definition, an AR-15 with one of these devices would not be semiautomatic, as they include the fact that it must chamber the next round, which this doesn't.

S 265.00 Definition 21:
21. "Semiautomatic" means any repeating rifle, shotgun or pistol, regardless of barrel or overall length, which utilizes a portion of the
energy of a firing cartridge or shell to extract the fired cartridge
case or spent shell and chamber the next round, and which requires a
separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge or shell.

Posted: 5/23/2017 5:51:54 PM EDT

[#5]

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Quoted:
Blessed be us! NY actually defines what semi-automatic means. According to the NY definition, an AR-15 with one of these devices would not be semiautomatic, as they include the fact that it must chamber the next round, which this doesn't.

S 265.00 Definition 21:
21. "Semiautomatic" means any repeating rifle, shotgun or pistol, regardless of barrel or overall length, which utilizes a portion of the
energy of a firing cartridge or shell to extract the fired cartridge
case or spent shell and chamber the next round, and which requires a
separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge or shell.

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I'm sure MS13 is following this to the letter.

Posted: 5/23/2017 7:42:38 PM EDT

[#6]

Or build an upper with no gas tube?

Posted: 5/23/2017 7:56:45 PM EDT

[#7]

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Or build an upper with no gas tube?

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But then you'd have to cycle the bolt manually. The method with these 2 devices is much easier/faster.

Posted: 5/24/2017 5:47:37 AM EDT

[#8]

Seems like it would prematurely wear the bolt catch. I hate installing bolt catches.

Posted: 5/24/2017 9:39:35 AM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:
Blessed be us! NY actually defines what semi-automatic means. According to the NY definition, an AR-15 with one of these devices would not be semiautomatic, as they include the fact that it must chamber the next round, which this doesn't.

S 265.00 Definition 21:
21. "Semiautomatic" means any repeating rifle, shotgun or pistol, regardless of barrel or overall length, which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge or shell to extract the fired cartridge case or spent shell and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge or shell.

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Playing devil's advocate here...

So, from a legal perspective and in the context of that definition, what is it that is chambering the next round?
Is it the fact that you pressed the button to release the bolt or is it "a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge" that was stored in the buffer spring? Does the fact that the forward motion of the bolt is delayed by the catch change whether it meets that legal definition of semiautomatic? Is there anything in that text that means that it must solely be the fired energy that does the chambering?

I don't definitively know the answer, but this doesn't feel like a slam dunk to me.

Posted: 5/24/2017 10:14:15 AM EDT

[#10]

Attempt at compliance is a futile endeavor.

Posted: 5/24/2017 11:31:49 AM EDT

[#11]

which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge or shell to extract the fired cartridge case or spent shell and chamber the next
round

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Once this newly installed catch arrests the bolt, nothing else is happening without your intervention, just like a lever action. A portion of the energy of the fired cartridge isn't being used to chamber the next round. The new catch is making sure that doesn't occur, therefore it doesn't meet the definition.

Posted: 5/24/2017 12:00:59 PM EDT

[#12]

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Once this newly installed catch arrests the bolt, nothing else is happening without your intervention, just like a lever action. A portion of the energy of the fired cartridge isn't being used to chamber the next round. The new catch is making sure that doesn't occur, therefore it doesn't meet the definition.

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A portion of that energy most certainly IS being used to chamber the next round. That (potential) energy is stored (in the buffer spring).

Posted: 5/24/2017 12:49:14 PM EDT

[#13]

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Quoted:
Once this newly installed catch arrests the bolt, nothing else is happening without your intervention, just like a lever action. A portion of the energy of the fired cartridge isn't being used to chamber the next round. The new catch is making sure that doesn't occur, therefore it doesn't meet the definition.

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True, but the law doesn't say anything about "without intervention". It's different from a lever action (or pump or whatever) because the energy that pushed that AR bolt carrier back came from the fired round, not from your hand moving the lever rearward.
The energy doesn't go away or come from somewhere else just because the spring was caught for a second by a catch. It's still that same energy.

I know it doesn't make a lot of sense to call something semi-auto when you have to do something other than pulling the trigger to keep shooting, but we're faced with a specific legal definition here and that's what's going to be analyzed in a court.

Again, I don't claim to know the answer here, but I think it's a line of questioning anyone considering using something like this should follow through in their own mind before deciding.

Posted: 5/24/2017 1:11:47 PM EDT

[#14]

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True, but the law doesn't say anything about "without intervention". It's different from a lever action (or pump or whatever) because the energy that pushed that AR bolt carrier back came from the fired round, not from your hand moving the lever rearward.
The energy doesn't go away or come from somewhere else just because the spring was caught for a second by a catch. It's still that same energy.

I know it doesn't make a lot of sense to call something semi-auto when you have to do something other than pulling the trigger to keep shooting, but we're faced with a specific legal definition here and that's what's going to be analyzed in a court.

Again, I don't claim to know the answer here, but I think it's a line of questioning anyone considering using something like this should follow through in their own mind before deciding.

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NO. I put the "energy" in the spring when I first pulled back the bolt.

Holy Fuck there's a lot of deep thinking goin on up in here

Posted: 5/24/2017 1:53:48 PM EDT

[#15]

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NO. I put the "energy" in the spring when I first pulled back the bolt.

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Quoted:
NO. I put the "energy" in the spring when I first pulled back the bolt.

Sure, for the first round. After that it's coming from the previous round's gas.

Holy Fuck there's a lot of deep thinking goin on up in here

Yeah, I know. I debated posting this at all but decided to so others would at least be aware of the question and make their own decision.

Interesting flip side, according to the definition, if one were to replace the buffer with a high speed electric linear actuator attached to the carrier, put some batteries in the stock, add a trigger activated switch and remove the gas tube, a rifle that's effectively semi-auto but doesn't meet that legal definition could be built. (all rights reserved, cut me in if you build it)

Posted: 5/24/2017 2:38:28 PM EDT

[#16]

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Sure, for the first round. After that it's coming from the previous round's gas.

Yeah, I know. I debated posting this at all but decided to so others would at least be aware of the question and make their own decision.

Interesting flip side, according to the definition, if one were to replace the buffer with a high speed electric linear actuator attached to the carrier, put some batteries in the stock, add a trigger activated switch and remove the gas tube, a rifle that's effectively semi-auto but doesn't meet that legal definition could be built. (all rights reserved, cut me in if you build it)

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Magnetic "rail gun" scaled down to a carrier & tube assembly?

Above it was asked if the NYSP would offer anything: Until such time as there is a Court Case where judgement was made, then its all conjecture.....problem is nobody (including me) wants to be the "Test Case" and even though NYSRPA has assisted in some 20 plus SAFE Act cases, nothing has become definitive.

Posted: 5/24/2017 3:51:22 PM EDT

[#17]

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Attempt at compliance is a futile endeavor.

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Quite true. Plus if this is a "drop in" solution what is to prevent an overzealous DA from "dropping it out" and showing you have a semi auto? This issue of permanence was debated ad nauseum in regards to what is a fixed magazine. If conversion back to a semi auto is as simple as pulling a part out of the receiver then I would not want to be the test case. I don't think it would any different than the MR2 that also required open the action.

Posted: 5/24/2017 3:53:36 PM EDT

[#18]

(Dupe) Network problems

Posted: 5/24/2017 5:10:04 PM EDT

[#19]

The overzealous DA route will result in you cowering in fear in your house and never coming out. Anyone can take a fixed mag SKS and make it accept detachable magazines in less than 30 seconds.

Posted: 5/24/2017 8:49:34 PM EDT

[#20]

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The overzealous DA route will result in you cowering in fear in your house and never coming out. Anyone can take a fixed mag SKS and make it accept detachable magazines in less than 30 seconds.

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As I understand it the determining factor is original intent of the design when the rifle was manufactured. Hence why an sks is not a question while an MR2 is hotly debated.

One has to wonder what would happen if you engraved an 80% lower to say "not for semi automatic use", milled (manufactured) it, and installed one of these devices...

Posted: 5/24/2017 10:05:21 PM EDT

[#21]

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Quoted:

I'm sure MS13 is following this to the letter.

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Posted: 5/25/2017 2:18:57 AM EDT

[#22]

Eugene is rolling over in his grave right now. His eyes are rolling even harder.

Posted: 5/25/2017 7:15:36 AM EDT

[#23]

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Eugene is rolling over in his grave right now. His eyes are rolling even harder.

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Lets face it, if the founding fathers could see the country now, they'd say "why the hell did we bother?"

Posted: 5/25/2017 12:26:21 PM EDT

[#24]

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Lets face it, if the founding fathers could see the country now, they'd say "why the hell did we bother?"

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Quoted:
Eugene is rolling over in his grave right now. His eyes are rolling even harder.

Lets face it, if the founding fathers could see the country now, they'd say "why the hell did we bother?"

There was enough of a consensus that the good People of this Country voted in DJT because he is an outsider, and maybe, just maybe there is still some hope for this Nation. There has ALWAYS been graft, corruption, political favoritism, and a sundry of other nefarious and self serving entities that have all come and gone, yet we as a Republic have survived. Best is to educate yourself and use that knowledge to prepare yourself and those you care about....the War of Northern Aggression hurt us, and only made the survivors stronger so there is a lesson to be learned here.
Become involved, do not allow the News reports/propaganda to sway you from what you know in your heart to be the Truth and what's right, then fight for it!

"...this Lady may have stumbled, but she ain't NEVER fell! and if the Russians don't believe that they can all go straight to Hell!"
Charlie Daniels Band
America
1981

Posted: 5/26/2017 3:07:05 PM EDT

[#25]

Just as a reference. The International Firearms Specialist Academy (www.gunlearn.com) which is staffed by leading experts (retired ATF, NYPD, other LEO, as well as attorneys) in the firearms and ammunition field provides training to LEO and civilians to become expert in the field of firearms.
They defines a "Manually Loaded" firearms as any firearm that after firing a shot, the shooter must manually operate something on the gun, in order to load the next cartridge into the chamber. The link is listed below and it's located at around timer 1:58.

Gunlearn.com

I'm not a legal expert but based on the definition of "Semiautomatic" and "Manually Loaded". It is pretty clear that an AR fitted with a MBC is not semiautomatic. Again, I am not a legal expert.

Posted: 5/26/2017 5:46:41 PM EDT

[#26]

Not putting a sharp stick in anyone's eye here but what a bunch of bullshit. The government has created a society Ad nauseam and we bite.

Posted: 5/26/2017 8:17:04 PM EDT

[#27]

Honestly if it isn't semi auto and doesn't have a detachable mag, it's not a viable, modern, self defense weapon. It's just a toy.

Do what you can to keep it semi auto with a detachable mag. Thordsen stock for me.

Fuck you Cuomo.

Posted: 5/27/2017 7:27:09 AM EDT

[#28]

A drop in device that makes an illegal "assault weapon" semi auto isn't going to save you from the cops in NY.
If it was permanently installed maybe it would work

Posted: 5/27/2017 9:59:07 AM EDT

[#29]

Quote History

Quoted:
A portion of that energy most certainly IS being used to chamber the next round. That (potential) energy is stored (in the buffer spring).

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This.

Anyone is welcome to not comply based on constitutionality arguments. However, if someone is actually trying to comply to avoid being arrested, going to court and possibly ending up in prison, then they should be aware that any high school physics teacher (much less a college professor) could verify in two seconds that they energy being used to chamber the round was from firing the previous cartridge. Your finger is releasing it, not creating it. Heck, they could use it in their class to demonstrate the difference between potential and kinetic energy.

As stated, on a lever, pump or bolt action, the energy use to extract the spend cartridge and to chamber the next comes from the shooter. There is no connection from the gas system to the rear mechanics.

Like the electronic solution above, I once wonder about putting a compressed air cylinder in the rear like you see on paintball guns. When tripped that gas would enter the gas tube and cycle the action, extracting the spent cartridge and cambering the next one. There would be no gas tube from the barrel, so it clearly wouldn't be using that energy. Depending on size/weight/capacity/pressure, you would make/us QD swappable cylinders or a built-in pump. Kinda stupid hoop-jumping, but it would be a bit of a fun FU until the next round of laws.

Posted: 6/3/2017 11:03:23 PM EDT

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:
I'm almost too embarrassed to ask, but would NYSP write a letter saying these are legal in NY ?

DanG

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FUCK the NYSP!

Posted: 6/4/2017 9:54:00 AM EDT

[#31]

Quote History

Quoted:
It is pretty clear that an AR fitted with a MBC is not semiautomatic.

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And one un-fitted with one is. Which will be a huge problem for the overlords.

Posted: 6/4/2017 12:42:02 PM EDT

[#32]

so basically someone will cut a notch in the underside of a bolt catch with a dremel and place a .50 cent spring under it so it has upward tension on it at all times, and probably sell it to us suckers for $49.95 So incredibly innovative.. LOL

Posted: 6/4/2017 6:26:55 PM EDT

[#33]

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Quoted:
A drop in device that makes an illegal "assault weapon" semi auto isn't going to save you from the cops in NY.
If it was permanently installed maybe it would work

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So if one were to rivet in a DIAS so it wouldn't operate in semi auto mode ever again...oh wait never mind wrong direction.

Posted: 6/4/2017 6:49:40 PM EDT

[#34]

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Attempt at compliance is a futile endeavor.

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Lol tell that to the guy in Niagara who's going to prison

Posted: 6/4/2017 8:07:03 PM EDT

[#35]

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Lol tell that to the guy in Niagara who's going to prison

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Link to article?

Posted: 6/5/2017 12:26:14 AM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:
so basically someone will cut a notch in the underside of a bolt catch with a dremel and place a .50 cent spring under it so it has upward tension on it at all times, and probably sell it to us suckers for $49.95 So incredibly innovative.. LOL

View Quote

I don't know the internals of any of the mentioned devices, but it's more complicated than just spring pressure on the bolt catch. They have mechanisms that prevent holding (or wedging, etc) the bolt catch down to return operation to traditional semi-auto behavior.

The first time I saw this it was from a UK company to comply with the UK definition of semi-auto: http://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/08/13/video-lr223-british-almost-semi-automatic-ar15/
That was years ago and we're seeing some new iterations of it here.

Still don't think it meets the law here in NY, but might work in CA or other places with different definitions.

Posted: 6/5/2017 6:12:49 AM EDT

[#37]

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Link to article?

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I'll try to find it. The guy was stopped for dwi and found not guilty of dwi, but the cops opened a small lock box that was in his truck and found two 17 round glock mags, so he got convicted on the safe act charges

Posted: 6/5/2017 6:19:11 AM EDT

[#38]

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Link to article?

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Quoted:
Lol tell that to the guy in Niagara who's going to prison

Link to article?

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/05/05/ny-army-veteran-charged-illegal-pistol-magazines-faces-21-years-prison/amp/

Not sentenced yet, AFAIK.

Posted: 6/5/2017 6:23:54 AM EDT

[#39]

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http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/05/05/ny-army-veteran-charged-illegal-pistol-magazines-faces-21-years-prison/amp/

Not sentenced yet, AFAIK.

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Yeah maybe he'll just get probation and be banned from ever owning a gun again, if he's lucky :/

Posted: 6/5/2017 8:31:21 AM EDT

[#40]

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Quoted:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/05/05/ny-army-veteran-charged-illegal-pistol-magazines-faces-21-years-prison/amp/

Not sentenced yet, AFAIK.

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Thank you

Posted: 6/5/2017 9:24:02 AM EDT

[#41]

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Quoted:

A portion of that energy most certainly IS being used to chamber the next round. That (potential) energy is stored (in the buffer spring).

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Perhaps in the most literal terms....
Years ago there was a "expert" that said he would testify in Court that under that muzzle device were threads. Now none would be usable, but they were still there. Technically he was correct, but literally and mechanically they're weren't because they could not be accessed or made usable without severe damage. Same sort of horse-shit has been used on "M-16" parts: Sure IF one was to obtain all the parts, finish the necessary and proper machine work, but we have Laws, Definitions, Terms, to define what is and isn't; problem is, the Legislature wanted a way to arbitrarily go after and reduce the number of MSR type rifles. There aren't any standards, nobody wants to be the "test case" and there isn't any viable way at this time to overturn or repeal the un-SAFE Act, so pretty much we have to sneak around, trying to comply without having to prove we've done nothing wrong lest the State come after one of us.
Last I heard on the Veteran with a standard capacity magazine that exceeded the arbitrary 10 round State imposed limit, he was going to jail.

Posted: 6/6/2017 3:27:14 PM EDT

[#42]

They've been using something like this in the UK for a while now. It'll be banned here eventually.

Posted: 6/6/2017 9:20:43 PM EDT

[#43]

Quote History

Quoted:
so basically someone will cut a notch in the underside of a bolt catch with a dremel and place a .50 cent spring under it so it has upward tension on it at all times, and probably sell it to us suckers for $49.95 So incredibly innovative.. LOL
https://s4.postimg.org/59sd02d19/Bolt-_Catch-_Assm-2.jpg

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It will be interesting to see how this new creation they are coming out with works....

Posted: 6/8/2017 7:42:00 PM EDT

[#44]

Quote History

Quoted:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/05/05/ny-army-veteran-charged-illegal-pistol-magazines-faces-21-years-prison/amp/

Not sentenced yet, AFAIK.

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"But inside his vehicle- in a locked gun box- were three pistol magazines capable of firing more than 10 rounds."

Now magazines are firing rounds.

Posted: 6/9/2017 9:44:19 PM EDT

[#45]

The sad fact is that the security officer was in violation of a clearly stated law about magazine capacity. There is no ambiguity !

TEN rounds is it PERIOD !

He was speeding, failed a field soberity test, told the cops to turn on their body cams and then, at trial, lectured the jury on the 2nd amendment.

Broke the law and then was a dummy.

He'll never do 21 years but no jury could find him innocent.

Posted: 6/9/2017 10:31:22 PM EDT

[#46]

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The sad fact is that the security officer was in violation of a clearly stated law about magazine capacity. There is no ambiguity !

TEN rounds is it PERIOD !

He was speeding, failed a field soberity test, told the cops to turn on their body cams and then, at trial, lectured the jury on the 2nd amendment.

Broke the law and then was a dummy.

He'll never do 21 years but no jury could find him innocent.

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^Found the arresting officer.

Posted: 6/21/2017 9:14:28 AM EDT

[#47]

Check it out. It's now available. Use the coupon code PRESALE to get the discount. Tier5 Solutions

Attached File

Posted: 6/21/2017 9:46:01 AM EDT

[#48]

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Check it out. It's now available. Use the coupon code PRESALE to get the discount. Tier5 Solutions

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/148987/MBC-Presale-235481.JPG

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Huh, oh man, where did you get the low down on that sweet coupon code?

Posted: 6/22/2017 10:31:38 PM EDT

[#49]

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Honestly if it isn't semi auto and doesn't have a detachable mag, it's not a viable, modern, self defense weapon. It's just a toy.

Do what you can to keep it semi auto with a detachable mag. Thordsen stock for me.

Fuck you Cuomo.

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This. A Mini-14 makes more sense than these kind of fixes.

Posted: 6/26/2017 11:55:08 AM EDT

[#50]

Quote History

Quoted:
Check it out. It's now available. Use the coupon code PRESALE to get the discount. Tier5 Solutions

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/148987/MBC-Presale-235481.JPG

View Quote

Oh boy, it looks like that's exactly what blue70chevelle described. Just a spring that pushes the bolt catch up constantly. So hold the catch down and you're back to traditional semi auto.
Unless that's not correct in some non-apparent way, there's no way I would consider this compliant, it seems analogous to saying that a machine gun is only full auto if you hold the trigger down.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Answer to NY SAFE Act (Page 1 of 2)

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