Salaries in "deep blue states" are high because that's what it costs to live in those states. If you slash public sector incomes you aren't going to see any savings. My PT agency had its budget slashed 20% a couple of years ago by the village fathers despite repeated protests from residents at public meetings  that they did not want those cuts..an amount of money that realistically for small agencies could be a death knell, given how tight budgets are. But the politicians  cut and slashed and promised the residents that they'd see the savings passed on to taxpayers, with no real explanation for how that number was even arrived at. The best we could figure was that the politicians were mad that village officers responded outside the village to assist other agencies about that percentage of calls. In rural NYS, officers from all agencies rely on each other because manpower is so thin. All the politicians saw was village dollars being used outside the village when officers responded in mutual aid. They didn't acknowledge how often other agencies assisted IN the village, and the financial benefit of that mutual aid...Was there ultimately any savings from that cutting process? of course not. The money slashed from the police budget was re-directed to other departments within village government that the politicians favored. But it did leave behind a deeply hamstrung police agency trying to provide decent service on a now shoe-string budget.

if you go cutting the salary, like NYPD tried a few years back, you wont get candidates...or good candidates...because people wont be able to live on the reduced salary.
You talk about union vs non-union states, and one persistent problem as it seems to me is the problems that agencies in lower-paying non-union states have in attracting qualified quality candidates.

The problem in NYS is not the pensions, but the generally anti-business attitude of politicians in Albany. That's what's driving the private sector to other states. Fix that problem and you'll fix a whole lot of the money leaving the state for other areas or even going overseas.

And of course you're back to harping about pension amounts, which you've already admitted is a critique mostly aimed at police and fire. What you define as overly generous benefits doesn't look that way to me at all. But you're entitled to your opinion, being what it is..an opinion.

Just another antipolice poster couching your protest in terms of officer pay and pension, which I've also already pointed out is not as high as you seem to think across the career field state-wide.
The "deep blue states" tend to be states with heavily urban population centers. Not something you run into in as much in fly-over lower-population red states. With increased population comes demand for more services. Simple fact of life. More rural states have a different focus on different issues than the urban centers do. Rural lower population areas make do with what they have because a lower population doesn't bring the same issues as a highly populated urban center does. Simple fact of life, again. Different focus on different issues, which just goes to confirm that the US is a deeply divided nation because so many states do not share the same concerns on many social issues. But that's a topic for another thread....

Spot on. All we need now is for the shop steward to weigh in on your opinion.

"Salaries in "deep blue states" are high because that's what it costs to live in those states. If you slash public sector incomes you aren't going to see any savings. My PT agency had its budget slashed 20% a couple of years ago by the village fathers despite repeated protests from residents at public meetings  that they did not want those cuts..an amount of money that realistically for small agencies could be a death knell, given how tight budgets are. But the politicians  cut and slashed and promised the residents that they'd see the savings passed on to taxpayers, with no real explanation for how that number was even arrived at. The best we could figure was that the politicians were mad that village officers responded outside the village to assist other agencies about that percentage of calls. In rural NYS, officers from all agencies rely on each other because manpower is so thin. All the politicians saw was village dollars being used outside the village when officers responded in mutual aid. They didn't acknowledge how often other agencies assisted IN the village, and the financial benefit of that mutual aid...Was there ultimately any savings from that cutting process? of course not. The money slashed from the police budget was re-directed to other departments within village government that the politicians favored. But it did leave behind a deeply hamstrung police agency trying to provide decent service on a now shoe-string budget.

if you go cutting the salary, like NYPD tried a few years back, you wont get candidates...or good candidates...because people wont be able to live on the reduced salary.
You talk about union vs non-union states, and one persistent problem as it seems to me is the problems that agencies in lower-paying non-union states have in attracting qualified quality candidates".


You have to ask WHY it costs so much to live in deep blue states. Might it be the way Democrats operate? When public unions almost always universally support far left Dems that is giving aid and comfort to the enemy. You are, as expected, looking at your relatively small village window on the issue where mutual aid makes sense. I'd wager your area is more red than blue as well.  You too are stuck behind enemy lines.  I'm not really anti police per se. Not a fan of their excessive militarization and focus on revenue generating speed traps. Real cops I respect. The bullies I too often observe from afar earning way more than their neighbors? Not as much. Small town cops tend to be more real. Personally, I believe too may police agencies created a good chunk of the acrimony (urban areas infested with welfare parasites excluded). They too often went from Andy Griffith to Robocop and wonder why they lost support.

Interesting you use the NYPD as an example. They are generally low paid compared to their state, suburban and rural counterparts. Odd considering they appear more likely to do actual police work. What evidence do you have that agencies in states less enamored of public unions has trouble attracting candidates? Might applicant loss of interest be due to the general anti police sentiment?

The problem in NYS is not the pensions, but the generally anti-business attitude of politicians in Albany. That's what's driving the private sector to other states.  

Pension costs are an issue, but not the issue. For police and fire they've been hovering around 25% of payroll. Considering how the typical private sector is lucky to get a 3% 401k match, well...you can see where I am going. Again, WHY are states like NJ, NY, CT and MA, etc so anti business? Because, in large part, they are reliably Democratic. And who is among their biggest supporters and benefactors?  Public unions. Becomes a vicious cycle. You are likely relatively insulated if in a more remote location, but on a multi-state scale the problem is far larger.

And of course you're back to harping about pension amounts, which you've already admitted is a critique mostly aimed at police and fire. What you define as overly generous benefits doesn't look that way to me at all. But you're entitled to your opinion, being what it is..an opinion.

I usually take aim at police, teacher and fire. They are the most expensive.  And of course mine is an opinion. I do try to back it up with facts.

The "deep blue states" tend to be states with heavily urban population centers. Not something you run into in as much in fly-over lower-population red states. With increased population comes demand for more services. Simple fact of life. More rural states have a different focus on different issues than the urban centers do. Rural lower population areas make do with what they have because a lower population doesn't bring the same issues as a highly populated urban center does.

This is true. Demand for services too often is by those who fail to contribute, hence our problem. Thus the cycle perpetuates under Democrat rule--and people like you and probably most here seek to flee. I seek to cut the problem off at the source- Democrat rule by starving their support. Most egregious of Dem support tends to come from the teachers union.

Upstate NY is absolutely red.
Our county, not so much anymore. The blue used to be confined to the county seat and maybe one bedroom community; the rest was still mostly agricultural or industrial when I was a kid
Over the last 40 years with the spread of public housing projects and development in general that saw farmland being turned into housing developments, its all mostly slipped blue with the exception of one town
It costs that much to live in urbanized high population areas for any number of reasons, not just pensions.
The more people you get in an area, the more services they demand and expect.

Stop it with the "militarization" and "speed trap" stuff. It just makes the poster sound uninformed whenever I see that sort of comment here.
Speed enforcement is something down between calls unless you're assigned to strictly traffic enforcement because you're working on a  detail funded by traffic grant money
The whole idea of a speed trap is laughable; no one held a gun to the drivers head forcing them to break the VTL, and the money doesn't stay local in NYS anyways, so there is no incentive to write or not write tickets outside of policy at the agency level.

Back up outside of metro areas even in Upstate NY is a matter of many minutes to get just one back up officer on scene. Considering that many counties up here operate with only one or two or three officers on at the county level at any given time, relying on village or state units for backup is critical for officer safety

Andy Griffith's TV officer was a work of fiction, so people need to stop expecting that to be the reality. Sure village policing is different, that's why I stay at the PT place because it lends the opportunity to do a different sort of policing.
The FT place has a work tempo that doesn't allow that, and when you're responsible for a third to a half of a county, you spend most shifts driving to or at a call



What evidence? I've talked to plenty of officers from many states at training events, for one. Overseas the majority of contract officers working for Dyne were Southern officers who jumped at the opportunity to make much bigger bucks than what they could back home.
NYPD is low paid? Maybe you need to sit down and have a chat with Extorris. He might LOL your comment.



The 401K was never intended to be a primary retirement fund when it was created. Companies stabbed their employees in the back by dropping tarditionaal pensions and adopting the 401K



I've already discussed this. The Dems have more support for the worker. if the GOP would express and demonstrate more support for labor issues, that divide wouldn't be there

I'd love to see what would happen if they got rid of the pension.


For their area they are, they're dead last in pay for the metro area. The next lowest paid PD makes $14k more a year base. Regular cops on other PDs in the city and neighboring suburbs make more than the NYPD Commissioner. Nothing compared to some of the PDs down here that pay cops $11/hr. though.

How did this turn into a NYPD thread when it started out about extremely high state pensions and escalating property taxes ?

Interesting. See my comments up.

My property is losing value with every year a new tax increase to cover the burden of all public employees retired or not.

Ding! We have a winner!

High taxes drive down property values. What causes high taxes? Democrats in power, too much government and too many employees, both in number and cost of total compensation. Remember, government creates no wealth. It merely consumes it. People can argue ad nauseum over HOW it came to be, but the math is the math is the math. High taxes and low freedom do not an attractive place to live make. Since public unions and the welfare parasites are typically the Dems strongest base (Hmm....how much DO they have in common. I must ponder on this.) it stands to reason that by reducing both freedom is raised and taxes lowered. What's not to like?

All of the above is why my family and I are leaving before the tsunami of pensions ,public benefits and taxes overwhelm property values including the pension system.  

 
 

You might then like this link- interesting finds on the real nationwide scope of over-giving to unions, under funding and way, way over promising. Numbers don't care about politics. They just are.

http://www.pensiontsunami.com

Maybe because NYC and NYPD are examples of what you're complaining about?

I think the thread started out about some chief in Rockland County walking away with a 6 figure pension package and how the property tax is a tremendous burden for most everyone. Its really common sense that the pension system cannot be sustained.    

Oddly enough, these two as far as I know are NOT the issue for non NYC residents. Its the rest of them.

Lets take look at a few links illustrating generally high public union states in or soon to be in deep crap. Might soon be time to get out the popcorn:

CALPERS (California) Warning for for 3.6 Trillion (Yes, Trillion with a "T") problem:  https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2016-12-22/calpers-rings-warning-bell-for-3-6-trillion-of-pensions

Puerto Rico is out of money:  http://bigstory.ap.org/article/194a554307024285aef0dee8b84f5330/puerto-rico-gov-elect-warns-funds-dwindling-pay-salaries

Forbes says 5 Trillion in underfunded public pensions/benefits. Uh-oh....  http://www.forbes.com/sites/timmaurer/2016/12/09/american-pension-crisis-how-we-got-here/#445183b476c6

Illinois a "Failed State" coincidentally also ruled by one disproportionately large city:  http://observer.com/2016/12/illinois-is-a-failed-state/#.WFsb39e-f7k.twitter

Ya just GOTTA love this quote from the article as it specifically mentions New York:

"This population drop is fueled by the 114,144 residents who left to move to other states. That ranked number two behind only New York which lost 191,367 residents to other states. Since 2010, over 540,000 people have fled Illinois to other states, again, behind only New York, which has lost almost 847,000.

So what could cause residents of a particular state to flee like rats abandoning a sinking ship? According to Roger Keats a former Republican Illinois State Senator who decided to leave his longtime home to retire in Texas, the cause is, “Corruption and taxes. It isn’t just high taxes, it is the shitty government you get for the high taxes.”

As is the case in New York, politics and government in Illinois are dominated by the overwhelmingly large population of its biggest city

Here in Nassau County, an average NCPD officer with five years service costs taxpayers over $200K per officer. That is salary, overtime, benefits and pension contributions.  Our 2017 NCPD budget is $183 million shy of $1 billion. Contract is up for negotiation at the end of 2017 so I imagine we will go well over $1 billion. We now have the highest real estate closing costs in the country as well as huge surcharges on every kind of VTL violation, including parking, to pay for it. The joke now is police are funding their salaries and pay raises by handing out summons to collect the surcharges that go to the police. Suffolk is considering the same thing as the SCPD is blowing a hole in their budget. 

Sadly this is likely no joke. It is also a prime example of everything I've been trying to get across.  Public service was never meant to be this way. And they wonder why states like NY, NJ, CT and MA, etc are losing people!

An interesting article on how/why states that voted for Hillary are failing. Not surprisingly, they are all deep blue, Dem lead and with VERY strong public unions. Whether some here like it or not there is a strong connection.

http://ijr.com/2016/12/754139-do-you-live-in-one-of-these-10-states-that-voted-for-hillary-chances-are-your-state-is-dying/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=promoted&utm_campaign=america_newlikegate&utm_content=election&utm_term=ijamerica&hide_ads%5B0%5D=IJR_Desktop_InContent_Video

A lot of this problem down here on Long Island started in the 1980's when the inflation of the late 1970's started pushing salaries and costs up.  I am not sure which public service union went first but for sake of argument let's say it was the teachers.  They demanded a large cost of living raise which raised taxes in the school districts.  Workers in the other public service unions saw their property taxes going up and demanded raises to pay those higher taxes.  So now the teachers are paying higher taxes and they want raises to pay thoses taxes.  Thus the never ending upward circle started and continues to this day.  The residents of Suffolk really take it on the chin because SCPD has an agreement that at contract negotiation they get a step increase over whatever Nassau officers are making.  Nassau does not have a the same agreement but generally they cite what SCPD is making when they push for their raises.  All of this is documented in Newsday.

When I was Googling to find some history on Nassau's never ending tax increases, I found these articles below.  The sad thing is these salary awards are due to arbitration, not negotiations.  The prime arbitrator who the PBA loves lives in Sands Point, NY and for years bends over backwards to give them what they want.  They always choose him as the arbitrator.

Police Salaries Likely to Move Higher - The New York Times
www.nytimes.com/1996/10/27/nyregion/police-salaries-likely-to-move-higher.html
Oct 27, 1996 - In 1978, after the police in Nassau County had won an arbitration to increase the base salary for top-step officers to $21,000, County Executive ...

Police Wage Award Used Suffolk Scale, Rising Over 20% - The New ...
www.nytimes.com/1997/09/.../police-wage-award-used-suffolk-scale-rising-over-20.htm...
Sep 14, 1997 - Officials in Nassau County, NY, estimate that arbitrator award made 10 ... By contrast, increases in county police pay can be offset in county ...

Cops in Nassau Get 21% Raise In 6-Year Deal - The Chief
https://www.nycpba.org/archive/ch/03/ch-030926-nassau.html
Sep 26, 2003 - Police Officers in Nassau County will receive pay raises of just over 21 percent under a six-year contract award issued by an arbitration panel ...

(Long Island, NY) SCPD Officers Can Make $159,000/year - Wages ...
https://www.reddit.com/r/.../long_island_ny_scpd_officers_can_make_159000year/
Apr 22, 2014 - **[Full text for those without a subscription]** **Suffolk police budget to ... pay increases to officers that a binding arbitration settlement may have mandated. ... agreement between Nassau County and its police officers union.

Arbitration panel decision on PBA contract is final | Newsday
www.newsday.com/.../arbitration-panel-decision-on-pba-contract-is-final-1.11120959
Nov 13, 2015 - Cops will earn $78,026 before boosters like overtime and longevity pay. ... Those settlements provide the fair wage increases that our ... maximum pay of $120,126, Nassau's average of $105,070 and New York City's $82,129.

This is one reason to have the villages, towns and counties move towards bankruptcy its one way to stop the unions and possibly disband or consolidate some of these departments and maybe school districts. Why people are afraid to offend their local police departments or teachers to protest against high taxes and preserve their communities is beyond me. Bankruptcy is not a bad thing I would rather see a few dozen loss their jobs vs a community of several thousand taking the tax on the chin year after year.

Ok, that's a Chief who probably draws a pretty decent salary and the pension is based off the salary. Your typical officer isn't earning Chiefs pay



Joke all you want, but more than likely any parking ticket revenue goes to the municipal general fund.
Traffic ticket monies go to the state, not the locality. The courts see more from their surcharge than the agency ever sees.
This whole business of officers writing tickets for profit doesn't apply in NYS because the agency sees little if any funds from any such tickets.
The officer might get OT from an occasional trial from a ticket but inevitably those happen when it's your day off, have other plans, etc. Most of us hate dealing with trials for that reason.

School districts have been consolidating for decades around here.
All it ends up doing is ensuring that your kid is on the school bus for an hour each way every school day instead of attending a local school

People, particularly rural and village people, support their respective police agencies around here.
They GET that if they consolidate with some bigger entity, they'll lose that local officer who is reliably on duty and familiar with the local personalities and issues
They wont have to wait 30 minutes or more while the agency their former force merged with is able to free up a responding officer to deal with their problem.
As far as taxes, I already used the example of my PT agency that had to absorb a 20% cut and the taxpayers were told they'd see a savings on their tax bill.
They didn't.
Funding a police agency is absolutely a large chunk of money for a village -sized population, particularly if it's a 24/7 agency
As for the bankruptcy thing, you're blindingly clear that your real goal is the destruction of unions, when unions are in fact a good thing that exist to act on behalf of individual officers and the union body as a whole.
There would be far more labor issues if there were no union for officers at a given agency

You forget this is NASSAU COUNTY and we do things differently here courtesy of our county charter and home rule (how do you think we got a $200 pistol license fee when Suffolk's is $20 and it is NCPD that signs off on pistol licenses not a judge?).

http://wshu.org/post/nassau-county-approves-29-billion-budget
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/11/22/nassau-county-traffic-tickets-2/

That $30 million gap is the NCPD budget.  New officers they want to hire and overtime.

Oh boy !

http://nypost.com/2016/11/26/port-authority-pays-employees-overtime-to-nap-on-the-job/

This article is even better.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1944870_When-the-going-gets-tough-on-anti-terrorism-overtime--PAPD-goes-to-hide-in-the-breakroom-for-naptime

This article is good as well.

http://nypost.com/2016/12/25/port-authority-cops-shirking-duties-probed-as-federal-crime/

Its not only these departments but this is through out every state agency, university , city, county, village you name it.

This is EXACTLY why those in the know and without self interest clouding their thoughts decry mandatory arbitration. All is has done is create a system of escalating compensation packages not just above what the community can pay, but outside the realm of reality.  Every group picks a friendly arbitrator, who almost never has a vested interest in the community, and then argues they should have what some other group has. Net result: A stair stepping of endlessly inflated total compensation, taxes through the roof and residents fleeing en mass. The bottom line is that any state led by Dems and with ultra strong public unions is a freedom-free, high tax gulag people like most posters on AR15.com flee. Cracks me up how the resident cops/firemen defending this mess never admit the indisputable connections.

Found this link in a quick google explaining in part. There are many others.  

https://www.heartland.org/news-opinion/news/pressure-grows-to-end-binding-arbitration-with-government-unions?source=policybot

Not blaming anyone here just the elected officials who have been throwing the taxpayers under the bus for years.

http://nypost.com/2016/12/27/will-mayor-de-blasio-buy-cops-support-with-an-overly-generous-contract/

Don't forget the guys and girls who collect those pensions!

This is precisely the kind of incestuous relationship showing why public unions are bad for the public.

In 1955 George Meany, then-president of the AFL-CIO, said: “It is impossible to bargain collectively with the government.” In 1959 the AFL-CIO Executive Council declared, “In terms of accepted collective bargaining procedures, government workers have no right beyond the authority to petition Congress—a right available to every citizen.”  

Seems past union leaders of all people understood what was and was not good for the public.


Collective Bargaining 101 video:   https://youtu.be/QyxuUjgHkgs

I found the article to be less than informative.
They talk about some specific bargaining issues currently under consideration, like additional money for college grads , which is not unusual, and additional money for body cams, which is also not unusual.
I don't know what they mean by a bonus for patrolling. I'm guessing that the articles author has screwed up reporting on whatever that particular contract negotiation is about.

Other than that, I don't see how in a city of many millions the endorsement or lack thereof by a police force of some 30,000, many of whom live outside the five boroughs, is seen as that important for a candidates victory.
IIRC the NYPD has numerous unions representing different ranks within the overall agency structure. I would think that getting all of the various unions to collectively endorse a candidate would be like herding cats

You just cant see the clearing through the forest.  What I deduced from the article is the mayor using the PBA do gain favor. How can we forget the guys and girls when you continually remind us.

Overly generous? It's not like it's a Ed Koch contract.

I continually remind you?  You have nothing but bad things to say about people who collect public pensions.  Your sarcastic comment about the California PO who just retired proves it.  The "Christmas bonus" comments prove it yet again.  

What's amazing is the fact that you collect a public pension from the very system you bash.  

I'm not saying bad things about people we are talking economics here and the reality of everyone being effected by bad decisions from the elected officials. Who in there right fucking mind should be given people 6 figure pensions with public monies ? At this rate there will be nothing left for anyone else including you or me.  I'm still working full time to make it. There are many things we don't know which are below the surface. As an example California is a fucking disaster several of their communities have already gone bankrupt Stockton CA  comes to mind with their tax and spend polices. Does something sound familiar with that policy? Do you know why they filed chapter 9 ? Unmanageable public employee pensions and out of control salary obligations. Those two commitments were $800 million for a city with a population of just under 300,000. Talk about stupid it doesn't get any fucking dumber then these folks. But I could be proven wrong at anytime . I'm just being cautious and take nothing for granted.    

Edit

Oh stop it already with the whining. If someone is making a six figure pension its because the salary that pension is calculated off of was high enough that it came out to a six figure pension. Those aren't typical pension amounts for average workers. Come up with a new argument against pensions. Someone with a six figure pension earned it.
Are you going to complain next that a retired military General makes more in his pension than a retired E8?

I'm not against pension I'm against ridiculous pensions. I'm not whining just continually pointing out failures of pension systems throughout the country. I think others have chimed in as well with the same observation. We have every right to voice our concern and actually question the stability of our pension system . I'm sure its been robust in earnings for the last few weeks but can bet that it was in a drag for the last several years.  Come on with the general and E8 they both can shop in the same PX at Hudson High.  

I am having a real hard time thinking of any government jobs deserving of 100K+ besides high ranking military officers, cabinet members, secretaries and governors, etc.  Government creates no wealth. It merely consumes it off the backs of others.

So it's a matter of a personal OPINOION about what you consider a "ridiculous" amount. The pension is based off a forumal that is applied to all persons covered under that pension system equally
Other pension systems have failed primarily due to poor management. That isn't an issue with pension system in general, just poor management of those systems
The problem NY had with its pension system was an over-reliance on earnings from the stock market at a time when those earnings were dropping.
That issue has, I believe, been addressed.



The old "it creates no wealth" argument. So what? Is that the only yardstick for a persons valuation and compensation?
Take a government  agency head who supervises a department or agency of dozens or even hundreds of personnel while in that position.
How much compensation would that person be receiving in the private sector for running programs and supervising an equivalent number of personnel?
How many personnel does a General, Colonel, etc supervise in the military while at those ranks? These people earn their salaries and their eventual pensions.

I just cant believe what I am reading here. Your observation about government pension and examples are wrong. I'll elaborate later, right now I need to start work in the private sector or I may get fired.

Truth.  Not everyone can work for the Port Authority 

I used to work with a cop who wanted to leave and work there. He got DQd from PAPD a week before their academy class was going to start back around 2002. We used to bust his balls mercilessly about it. In fact, he recently made LT on NYPD and I sent him a text saying "Congrats, now you're making about half of what you'd be making as a cop if PAPD hired you".

For some people that's like hitting the jackpot.

"Start working"?
No sympathy here
I worked a triple shift yesterday
The public sector people earn our pensions.

Many people in the private sector do just this. And they don't get to "retire" in the 40s or 50s.

Think hard on when you say pensions are 'earned'.   Then look up the term 'present value'.  Link: http://www.financeformulas.net/Present_Value.html

Factor in how much YOU personally have contributed. Then add a 100% employer match for the first, say 5%, when would be VERY generous in the private sector.

Do the equations and let me know how much of what you put in would fund your pension.  

The problem is a math equation. I readily concede NY's pension funds are arguably among the best funded. But--such comes at a price. Those unfortunate to be stuck there pay the nation's highest taxes and suffer the lowest rates of personal freedom. There's a reason more people are leaving it than any other state. To argue these are not intertwined would be disingenuous to say the least.

How many geriatric firefighters and police officers do you really want running around? Or military personnel? There's a reason jobs like that have the retirement system they have.
And yes, we absolutely do earn our pensions.

Many people in the private sector are pulling down a ton of hours? Maybe those type A personalities who are welded to their desks with no personal lives. I don't see many of them in the parts of society I encounter. You should work to live, not live to work. I'm sure that 80-something who was just pink slipped by Boeing put in a ton of hours, for example, but it surely was mostly a mental process for him

At this point all I see in this conversation is a couple of you who have made it clear that you think that public sector workers deserve the lowest pay possible and no pensions. I get that that's how you feel. We aren't going to change each others views so lets just let the thread slide into oblivion.

Your putting words in our mouths show us where anyone said "public sector workers deserve the lowest pay possible and no pensions". I agree with you about sliding into Oblivion.  A Happy New Year to everyone

I have little doubt you are likely a good man and honorable one, but you appear to quite literally have no idea what the world outside of government is like.

Let's see:

How many geriatric firefighters and police officers do you really want running around? Or military personnel? There's a reason jobs like that have the retirement system they have.
And yes, we absolutely do earn our pensions.

Geriatric? Who said anything about that? I'm just not willing to pay someone to "retire" for FORTY YEARS after having worked only 20. The pension can start at 62. Work until 65 like the rest of us. Work too physical? You means like roofers, carpenters and laborers, etc? Find another job as they do. As for "earning" your pensions the math does not agree.

Many people in the private sector are pulling down a ton of hours? Maybe those type A personalities who are welded to their desks with no personal lives. I don't see many of them in the parts of society I encounter. You should work to live, not live to work. I'm sure that 80-something who was just pink slipped by Boeing put in a ton of hours, for example, but it surely was mostly a mental process for him


Seriously? Have you seen the studies that regular people are forced to do this as companies expect more for less. Is this fair? Absolutely not. But, we are competing in a GLOBAL economy. You really don't get that, do you? Totally agree on work to live. I passed on more financially lucrative positions because, well, my family is more important than $$.

At this point all I see in this conversation is a couple of you who have made it clear that you think that public sector workers deserve the lowest pay possible and no pensions. I get that that's how you feel. We aren't going to change each others views so lets just let the thread slide into oblivion.

Absolutely NOT. I don't think public workers should have the lowest pay and no pensions. I argue their total compensation should be commensurate with the public paying them and what the community can afford. Big, big difference. In other words, you can get what we get and like it.

Either way, Happy New Year!

Might sound good in theory, but if guys can't draw their pensions after twenty years, they'll stick around until whatever the new retirement age is to draw the pensions. if that's 60, you'll have a bunch of old guys running around who should have been allowed to retire out with their pensions years ago. We saw something like this in our Corrections Division. Corrections was always the place that young guys started out a career in law enforcement. They'd spend a few years in the jail and get promoted to the road. Thirty years ago the administration at the time made the decision that rather than hiring more young guys they'd lose, they'd hire guys who were slightly older than the maximum age to be hired for a road patrol job which at the time was 29 in NYS. Sounds Ok to have a bunch of thirty-something guys that you knew couldn't be promoted out, so they wouldn't have to replace them or train their replacement. Fast-forward a couple of decades and what you had in part because of the ages they were hired at and a minimum 25 years to draw a pension for those Corrections guys was a bunch of older guys in their upper fifties who were thirty years older than the young crooks coming through the intake garage. Old guys who spent the bulk of their later "working years" on the injured list for months at a time, creating additional staffing stressors beyond the normal shortages that Corrections always have. Guys wont move on to some other job waiting for 62 or 65 for a deferred pension to kick in. They'll hang around til they can draw the pension, with the results I describe above.



I am well aware that Corporate America wants to pay many Americans on a reduced global pay scale while they continue to pocket ever-increasing profits themselves. Doesn't make it right.



You and the other guy are advocating for policies that would cut the earning capabilities of public sector employees in the long run. You want to gut unions, you want to gut pensions, and you want to set some arbitrary level of a maximum pension that you think people should be able to draw because you both think that some pensions are too high. So yeah, as I see it you want to harm the public sector workers. As for the public paying them, the public paying the taxes in the parts of the state where these huge pensions are coming out of seem to be making some good pay scales themselves.

Double post

Maybe this will help shed some light and help the pension system . Way to go Andy



http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1950915


Edit

I always find it staggering that the recipients of out-sized compensation fail to see the effect on taxes, cost of living and affordability. Just heard of a man recently "retired"  as a suburban NY cop with a final salary of.....$175K. Seriously? 175K for a cop? Add in the pension at 47 or so and generous healthcare and no wonder those unfortunate to live in such a gulag face such high taxes. With blue states spending so much on public unions and a never ending welfare state no wonder such places are seeing out-migration!

There's that bias again..."the guys a police officer so surely he isn't worth that pension level". Right? Come on, that's essentially what you mean by phrasing it that way
As far as "out-sized compensation", it costs a certain amount to live in some parts of the state..that's reality. What's your solution? Offer a salary that half of what it costs to live somewhere? How many people will sign up for that position? How much graft and corruption will result because the guys in that position slip into corruption to pay their bills.
As for overly generous health insurance.....please...we don't even get vision or dental and our premiums are pretty much in line with what everyone else is paying.