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Posted: 11/20/2014 5:33:08 PM EDT
[#1]
Or this could just be a case of the NRA taking liberties to try and drum up more donations...but the NYSRPA probably shouldn't be spreading false info about their own case.
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Posted: 11/20/2014 5:44:06 PM EDT
[#2]
Dave,
Please bring me (us) up to speed on NYC law. Can a NYC pistol licensee travel outside of NYC to a shooting range within the state, by law/administrative ruling/whatever it is called? What happens when NYC residents with premise handgun licenses show up at the NY metro airports with guns? I don't see where the NYSRPA/NRA are lying about this. I see two very clear lines of argument. One states folks are being denied the right to travel with a gun under some semblance of FOPA. The other is the "carry" issue. -ml |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 5:51:20 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Dave, Please bring me (us) up to speed on NYC law. Can a NYC pistol licensee travel outside of NYC to a shooting range within the state, by law/administrative ruling/whatever it is called? What happens when NYC residents with premise handgun licenses show up at the NY metro airports with guns? I don't see where the NYSRPA/NRA are lying about this. I see two very clear lines of argument. One states folks are being denied the right to travel with a gun under some semblance of FOPA. The other is the "carry" issue. -ml Hey...Here is what I am saying... The NYSRPA case against NYC's Title 38 is clearly only arguing that a NYC resident with a NYC premise permit should be allowed to transport their handgun, locked and unloaded, to a range outside the 5 boroughs. Currently, a NYC resident with a NYC premise permit is not allowed to take their handguns outside NYC. There is a hunting authorization permit that the NYPD issues to allow NYCers to transport their handguns for hunting only (which on a side note, is illegal for the NYPD to allow)...but there is no "target shooting" authorization. The NYPD specifically says NYCers can't remove their handguns from NYC for target shooting. Ever. If a NYCer tried to bring a handgun to a NYC airport, they would be arrested, since they are not directly going to or from a NYC shooting range. Now...the NRA / NYSRPA press release is saying that this case specifically challenges NYC's law that forbids NYCers to carry a handgun for self defense...but that is a blatant lie...their brief even says "we are not arguing that the plaintiff has the right to carry a handgun for defense." Which is what they SHOULD be arguing. This case SHOULD be argued in a way that it forces NYC to start issuing "restricted" carry permits again...and the judge SHOULD be ruling in that way regardless...but the NYSRPA brief torpedoed that idea pretty bad... My prediction...the judge will say "The NYSRPA has enlightened me to the fact that NYC allows NYC premise holders to hunt with their handguns...I rule that they can't do that anymore since premise permits are only valid for one address. Oh but NYC can still keep only issuing premise permits...we can't have gun owners running around the state just to target practice!" |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 6:03:06 PM EDT
[#4]
Technically, NYC is kind of correct...a premise handgun license is NOT valid for target shooting...ANYWHERE. Not even in NYC.
But NYC knows that they can't forbid target practice all together (the backlash would be too great and cause too much attention on NYC gun laws)...so they "allow" target shooting within NYC borders (really there is only 1 range, and it is $$$)...and travelling outside NYC, if you ran into a cop, they could arrest you, since you only have a premise license...so yeah NYC is correct in a way... But NYC does this because they don't want to issue "restricted" carry permits...since they KNOW that the restrictions don't mean anything legally...and they don't want people to carry guns...so they get away with issuing premise licenses, and illegally "allowing" target shooting in NYC only. This case should be trying to force NYC to start issuing restricted carry permits again...since those are the only permits that allow target shooting according to PL400...but the NYSRPA brief torpedoed that idea. Too bad the NYSRPA didn't go for it for real...they could have won pretty easily...NYC can't be allowed to only issue premise permits. |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 10:23:16 PM EDT
[#5]
That is a strange thing for the NRA to say, I always thought this case was strictly about NYC ignoring the federally passed FOPA.
While a challenge to NYC's odd licensing scheme and virtual ban on carry is overdo, I think that would be a much tougher loss for the city to accept. This case (at least what I thought this case was) seemed like an easier win for us. And maybe a way to soften the city up for the big case. |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 11:56:24 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Technically, NYC is kind of correct...a premise handgun license is NOT valid for target shooting...ANYWHERE. Not even in NYC. But NYC knows that they can't forbid target practice all together (the backlash would be too great and cause too much attention on NYC gun laws)...so they "allow" target shooting within NYC borders (really there is only 1 range, and it is $$$)...and travelling outside NYC, if you ran into a cop, they could arrest you, since you only have a premise license...so yeah NYC is correct in a way... But NYC does this because they don't want to issue "restricted" carry permits...since they KNOW that the restrictions don't mean anything legally...and they don't want people to carry guns...so they get away with issuing premise licenses, and illegally "allowing" target shooting in NYC only. This case should be trying to force NYC to start issuing restricted carry permits again...since those are the only permits that allow target shooting according to PL400...but the NYSRPA brief torpedoed that idea. Too bad the NYSRPA didn't go for it for real...they could have won pretty easily...NYC can't be allowed to only issue premise permits. There is more than one... Some are clubs that require memberships, but they are there (inspite of NYC ) |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 8:30:55 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: Why is the NRA / NYSRPA blatantly lying about what this case is trying to do?  Fuck you. You take something written by some clueless fool at NRA (that's not a NYSRPA press release) and accuse us of lying. Never once did we say this was about CCW. Tom was even on NRANews way back when and said it was about NYC prohibiting license holders from ever taking their pistols outside city limits, one out of state for competition and another to a second home someplace. |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 8:56:14 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fuck you. You take something written by some clueless fool at NRA (that's not a NYSRPA press release) and accuse us of lying. Never once did we say this was about CCW. Tom was even on NRANews way back when and said it was about NYC prohibiting license holders from ever taking their pistols outside city limits, one out of state for competition and another to a second home someplace.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Why is the NRA / NYSRPA blatantly lying about what this case is trying to do? Fuck you. You take something written by some clueless fool at NRA (that's not a NYSRPA press release) and accuse us of lying. Never once did we say this was about CCW. Tom was even on NRANews way back when and said it was about NYC prohibiting license holders from ever taking their pistols outside city limits, one out of state for competition and another to a second home someplace.
Wow take it easy...my post clearly says that it could very well be the NRA being clueless about the case...and not the nysrpa. Trust me we all appreciate ANY case brought against NYC. |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 9:05:41 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why is the NRA / NYSRPA blatantly lying about what this case is trying to do? Fuck you. You take something written by some clueless fool at NRA (that's not a NYSRPA press release) and accuse us of lying. Never once did we say this was about CCW. Tom was even on NRANews way back when and said it was about NYC prohibiting license holders from ever taking their pistols outside city limits, one out of state for competition and another to a second home someplace.It is incumbent on the guy who appears to represent in some way the NYSRPA, to take the high road. Also it is not helping to call some clueless fool at the NRA "some clueless fool". & I don't disagree with you on the facts of the matter, only on how you are responding and lashing out at people who should all be on the same side focused on a common goal. Dave, you called both the NRA and NYSRPA liars without proving intent of deception, or shown where they have made any false statements. I don't know if you are 15 or 50, but you may want to in the future more carefully parse your words and have the ability to substantiate your arguments. As I posted prior, I do not see where either entity is lying about the case. NYRKBA, the people your organization are trying to win over (including NY's portion of those "5 Million" formerly illegal aliens) will never be swayed by the type of response you've presented here. Please keep in mind the mission statement and core objective of your organization, and that these are very public spaces you are operating in. -ml |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 9:08:37 AM EDT
[#10]
...and on a lighter note, the casual observer might infer from our join dates (nyrkba, dave and myself) that we are the same person, creating arguments to generate discussion.
Jul 2005 Aug2005 Sep2005 This is not the case. I've been smacked around in the past by lawyers from four time zones in three continents about factual statements and images (both confidential) I posted on line. It has been over 15 years, and I am still very wary of what I post. |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 10:16:31 AM EDT
[#11]
How about a title edit Dave? I can see why nyrkba is upset.
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Posted: 11/21/2014 10:50:54 AM EDT
[#12]
Title and post edited...
I am not calling the NYSRPA liars...but the NRA press release IS mistaken... I am thrilled with the challenge of NYC title 38 not allowing premise holders to target shoot outside NYC...it is a great case...I just don't want people thinking it is challenging NYC carry laws like the NRA press release says. |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 4:10:20 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Title and post edited... I am not calling the NYSRPA liars...but the NRA press release IS mistaken... I am thrilled with the challenge of NYC title 38 not allowing premise holders to target shoot outside NYC...it is a great case...I just don't want people thinking it is challenging NYC carry laws like the NRA press release says. Dave, When you contacted the NRA, what was their response? In the grand scheme of things, we (2A advocates) are playing chess with gun grabbers. The desired long term objective is to challenge and win a precendent setting reversal against NYC on carry laws. We used to scoff at IL and CA. Today they are more 2A than we are. |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 4:38:44 PM EDT
[#14]
No I agree...And I understand we need to win small cases and set a precedent before we go for the bigger prizes.
And I understand this is chess not checkers. Just pointing out that the press release is wrong in stating that this particular case is going after NYC carry laws. It is not. But yes, this is a stepping stone towards going after NYC carry laws, I understand...and I understand the strategy we should be using (getting target/hunting licenses back in NYC, aka carry licenses). Anyway...I am looking forward to the judge's ruling...hoping it isn't another Mother Jones Skretny dumped on us. |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 4:39:39 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fuck you. You take something written by some clueless fool at NRA (that's not a NYSRPA press release) and accuse us of lying. Never once did we say this was about CCW. Tom was even on NRANews way back when and said it was about NYC prohibiting license holders from ever taking their pistols outside city limits, one out of state for competition and another to a second home someplace.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Why is the NRA / NYSRPA blatantly lying about what this case is trying to do? Fuck you. You take something written by some clueless fool at NRA (that's not a NYSRPA press release) and accuse us of lying. Never once did we say this was about CCW. Tom was even on NRANews way back when and said it was about NYC prohibiting license holders from ever taking their pistols outside city limits, one out of state for competition and another to a second home someplace.
Maybe you should take a time out while the grown ups talk. |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 4:55:47 PM EDT
[#16]
nyrkba - I am sorry if I offended you...didn't mean to sound so accusatory in my original post.
We do appreciate the NYSRPA that is for sure...I mean they are our only hope. |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 5:53:27 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe you should take a time out while the grown ups talk. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why is the NRA / NYSRPA blatantly lying about what this case is trying to do? Fuck you. You take something written by some clueless fool at NRA (that's not a NYSRPA press release) and accuse us of lying. Never once did we say this was about CCW. Tom was even on NRANews way back when and said it was about NYC prohibiting license holders from ever taking their pistols outside city limits, one out of state for competition and another to a second home someplace.
Maybe you should take a time out while the grown ups talk. And oldie but what I could pull up quickly (http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=8&f=9&t=346586): Quoted:
NYSRPA is the NRA affiliate in New York and we work with them on issues. SCOPE does not. NYSRPA is statewide. SCOPE is largely confined to the Buffalo-Rochester area. NYSRPA's legislative and political reports are used by NRA (with credit) and SCOPE (without credit.) NYSRPA pres. Tom King is on NRANews all the time. NYSRPA is the only group to have removed antigun incumbent politicans in over 10 years. NRA failed at it and SCOPE hasn't even tried. NYSRPA promotes black rifle shooting. SCOPE does not. Given that set of is and isn'ts Dave had a legitimate question. I'm not going to argue about the language used to ask it, or the language used to respond to it. |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 7:17:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe you should take a time out while the grown ups talk. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why is the NRA / NYSRPA blatantly lying about what this case is trying to do? Fuck you. You take something written by some clueless fool at NRA (that's not a NYSRPA press release) and accuse us of lying. Never once did we say this was about CCW. Tom was even on NRANews way back when and said it was about NYC prohibiting license holders from ever taking their pistols outside city limits, one out of state for competition and another to a second home someplace.
Maybe you should take a time out while the grown ups talk. We are all men around here. A fuck you here and a fuck you there is completely acceptable. |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 7:36:51 PM EDT
[#19]
In that case I'll leave this here for the next person who gets pissed off to use.
*gif posted for humor only and not aimed at anyone in particular. Don't ban me bro! |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 7:41:28 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In that case I'll leave this here for the next person who gets pissed off to use.
http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/go_fuck_yourself_cactus_disney.gif *gif posted for humor only and not aimed at anyone in particular. Don't ban me bro! PANTS UP! DON'T LOOT! |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 11:52:18 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In that case I'll leave this here for the next person who gets pissed off to use.
http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/go_fuck_yourself_cactus_disney.gif *gif posted for humor only and not aimed at anyone in particular. Don't ban me bro! Ha that's pretty amazing. |
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Posted: 11/22/2014 12:39:42 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wow take it easy...my post clearly says that it could very well be the NRA being clueless about the case...and not the nysrpa. Trust me we all appreciate ANY case brought against NYC. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why is the NRA / NYSRPA blatantly lying about what this case is trying to do? Fuck you. You take something written by some clueless fool at NRA (that's not a NYSRPA press release) and accuse us of lying. Never once did we say this was about CCW. Tom was even on NRANews way back when and said it was about NYC prohibiting license holders from ever taking their pistols outside city limits, one out of state for competition and another to a second home someplace.Wow take it easy...my post clearly says that it could very well be the NRA being clueless about the case...and not the nysrpa. Trust me we all appreciate ANY case brought against NYC. It would probably be helpful to wait for an answer/explanation before making an accusation, even one in the form of a question. |
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Posted: 11/24/2014 5:54:25 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Title and post edited... I am not calling the NYSRPA liars...but the NRA press release IS mistaken... I am thrilled with the challenge of NYC title 38 not allowing premise holders to target shoot outside NYC...it is a great case...I just don't want people thinking it is challenging NYC carry laws like the NRA press release says. The Press is and has been highly Subversive especially in their headlines. Far too many will read the headline, taking it as fact without fully reading and digesting the article. Long have I held the belief they publish a story appearing to be pro NRA or Pro-Gun then snipe those very organizations under the guise of "fair and balanced" Look at the last election where they implicated there was no financial support from the NRA, which pissed off members, who in turn went on the attack and canceled memberships....looks like a win again for the anti's. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subversion |
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Posted: 11/24/2014 9:09:40 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Technically, NYC is kind of correct...a premise handgun license is NOT valid for target shooting...ANYWHERE. Not even in NYC. But NYC knows that they can't forbid target practice all together (the backlash would be too great and cause too much attention on NYC gun laws)...so they "allow" target shooting within NYC borders (really there is only 1 range, and it is $$$)...and travelling outside NYC, if you ran into a cop, they could arrest you, since you only have a premise license...so yeah NYC is correct in a way... But NYC does this because they don't want to issue "restricted" carry permits...since they KNOW that the restrictions don't mean anything legally...and they don't want people to carry guns...so they get away with issuing premise licenses, and illegally "allowing" target shooting in NYC only. This case should be trying to force NYC to start issuing restricted carry permits again...since those are the only permits that allow target shooting according to PL400...but the NYSRPA brief torpedoed that idea. Too bad the NYSRPA didn't go for it for real...they could have won pretty easily...NYC can't be allowed to only issue premise permits. You are wrong. A premise license allows you to take your gun to the range. This is what NYS Penal code says (265), and NYC's own administrative code (title 38, 5 01 A) says the same exact thing. It (title 38) is silent of where you can take your gun. There is nothing (so far, still reading) I have seen in NYC admin code or NYS Penal code that specifically prohibits one from taking their gun outside of those jurisdictions, so long as the firearm is transported in compliance with admin code, state law and federal law. Now for the bickering: in my time on this planet I cannot recall one single argument that was resolved with shouting, name calling or swearing. Does it make you feel good? Fuck yes. But all it is, is posturing. Both of you two guys handled this with little objective consideration for a pragmatic end result. Yes, sometimes people (either side of the discussion) are fuck-heads, but you kill them will logic first, because our fight is for the most part based on logic. Anti's base their entire argument on emotion. Not sure I would want to emulate an idiot in an attempt to make a cogent point. - ml2150, class (ass) clown. |
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Posted: 11/24/2014 11:19:24 AM EDT
[#25]
ml2150 -
Wait...I've always thought a premise permit was only valid for the address on the permit. I've heard on here many times that you aren't allowed to target shoot or hunt with a premise license...which is why counties issue restricted carry licenses. If you are correct why don't anti gun judges just issue premise permits and allow target shooting and hunting...like nyc gets away with? |
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Posted: 11/24/2014 2:35:46 PM EDT
[#26]
And nyrkba - no hard feelings I hope - I didn't mean to insult.
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Posted: 11/24/2014 3:04:19 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And nyrkba - no hard feelings I hope - I didn't mean to insult. There are very few ways for someone to perceive being called a liar. We either totally dismiss that person, or we react like nyrkba did, with outrage. When you created the original topic for the thread, where on the spectrum of responses did you think his response would land? Did you get a chance to read up on NYC admin code? Also, NYS Penal code is not one size fits all. In Article 400 it specifically states that local laws may be more restrictive than state law. I am assuming that in your time here you've spent a lot of time reading up n the exact statutes? |
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Posted: 11/24/2014 3:47:36 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are very few ways for someone to perceive being called a liar. We either totally dismiss that person, or we react like nyrkba did, with outrage. When you created the original topic for the thread, where on the spectrum of responses did you think his response would land? Did you get a chance to read up on NYC admin code? Also, NYS Penal code is not one size fits all. In Article 400 it specifically states that local laws may be more restrictive than state law. I am assuming that in your time here you've spent a lot of time reading up n the exact statutes? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And nyrkba - no hard feelings I hope - I didn't mean to insult. There are very few ways for someone to perceive being called a liar. We either totally dismiss that person, or we react like nyrkba did, with outrage. When you created the original topic for the thread, where on the spectrum of responses did you think his response would land? Did you get a chance to read up on NYC admin code? Also, NYS Penal code is not one size fits all. In Article 400 it specifically states that local laws may be more restrictive than state law. I am assuming that in your time here you've spent a lot of time reading up n the exact statutes? I would like to point out that Jacob put more time into Representatives Offices right there in Albany than we spend bitching on the boards: know what NYSRPA pays him? ZERO! That's right, he's been there in person day in and night time out. Between Tom King and Jacob, they've been instrumental in bringing these suits to the forefront, all while keeping us posted with updates, e-mails, and NYSRPA's Web site...if all of us did a fraction of what he does, I'm sure things would be much different. http://nysrpa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=67&Itemid=76 |
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Posted: 11/24/2014 7:55:26 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are very few ways for someone to perceive being called a liar. We either totally dismiss that person, or we react like nyrkba did, with outrage. When you created the original topic for the thread, where on the spectrum of responses did you think his response would land? Did you get a chance to read up on NYC admin code? Also, NYS Penal code is not one size fits all. In Article 400 it specifically states that local laws may be more restrictive than state law. I am assuming that in your time here you've spent a lot of time reading up n the exact statutes? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And nyrkba - no hard feelings I hope - I didn't mean to insult. There are very few ways for someone to perceive being called a liar. We either totally dismiss that person, or we react like nyrkba did, with outrage. When you created the original topic for the thread, where on the spectrum of responses did you think his response would land? Did you get a chance to read up on NYC admin code? Also, NYS Penal code is not one size fits all. In Article 400 it specifically states that local laws may be more restrictive than state law. I am assuming that in your time here you've spent a lot of time reading up n the exact statutes? Well I never accused member nyrkba of being a liar...I questioned the NRA press release as being wrong and possibly untruthful. Also - P400 specifically states that your state permit is valid despite any local laws... I'm not sure where it says local municipalities can create stricter laws regarding pistol licensing...except nyc and higher fees in Westchester and long island. either way...this suit I hope is just a stepping stone to getting nyc to start issuing actual carry permits again...even restricted ones. |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 4:32:21 AM EDT
[#30]
So is the premises (or target) vs full carry license issue being taken up separately?
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Posted: 11/25/2014 7:34:36 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would like to point out that Jacob put more time into Representatives Offices right there in Albany than we spend bitching on the boards: know what NYSRPA pays him? ZERO! That's right, he's been there in person day in and night time out. Between Tom King and Jacob, they've been instrumental in bringing these suits to the forefront, all while keeping us posted with updates, e-mails, and NYSRPA's Web site...if all of us did a fraction of what he does, I'm sure things would be much different. http://nysrpa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=67&Itemid=76 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
And nyrkba - no hard feelings I hope - I didn't mean to insult. There are very few ways for someone to perceive being called a liar. We either totally dismiss that person, or we react like nyrkba did, with outrage. When you created the original topic for the thread, where on the spectrum of responses did you think his response would land? Did you get a chance to read up on NYC admin code? Also, NYS Penal code is not one size fits all. In Article 400 it specifically states that local laws may be more restrictive than state law. I am assuming that in your time here you've spent a lot of time reading up n the exact statutes? I would like to point out that Jacob put more time into Representatives Offices right there in Albany than we spend bitching on the boards: know what NYSRPA pays him? ZERO! That's right, he's been there in person day in and night time out. Between Tom King and Jacob, they've been instrumental in bringing these suits to the forefront, all while keeping us posted with updates, e-mails, and NYSRPA's Web site...if all of us did a fraction of what he does, I'm sure things would be much different. http://nysrpa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=67&Itemid=76 He is there nonstop and also because they have free donuts 
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Posted: 11/25/2014 10:44:25 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So is the premises (or target) vs full carry license issue being taken up separately? Not that I know of...there was a case a long time ago that challenged it...but a NYC judge ruled that it was OK for the NYPD to "allow" target shooting with a premise license, since it was a "supplement" to the permit...an "additional privilege" or some such bullshit...even though PL400 specifically says the permit is only valid at the address listed. The judge knew what NYC wanted (to keep the illegal premise/target permit)...and he made sure he ruled accordingly. |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 11:02:16 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also - PL400 specifically states that your state permit is valid despite any local laws... Fixed to avoid confusion. 
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