If the Brits can pull it off, why can't we?

You are right. Join thetnm.org

I did


Time to get serious about a Texit.

Im.curious if Louisiana and Texas left together,  what would the remaining U.S do without all our refineries?

If you can't get rid of those bullshit binding signage laws, you'll never secede.



Eta: more effort should have been put into that than oc.

It isn't going to happen.

I have friends in the Republican Party of Texas. Support is growing.

They'd be importing our oil.

And when the US government decides it doesn't want bases in the Republic of Texas, and withdraws it's troops from the roughly 30 bases in Texas?  And all those service members leave the state, taking their money with them. Oh, all the civilians employed on those bases are looking for a job too now.

What happens to US federal property in this new country ? Do we annex it? Steal it?

Is this Texas nation willing to go to war to remove it's self from the US ?
As former US citizens, do we now have dual citizenship?


Just because the voters of TX vote to remove it's self from the union, doesn't mean the union is required to let it go. You delude yourself if you think the US government will allow TX out of the union.

Yes, that whole "unpleasantness" of 1861-1865.  

Sadly, What is once "joined" can now never be "unjoined" no matter how much one party wants too...

Support can continue to 'grow' for another 100 years and still not happen.  Until you have literally millions of people in this state actively talking about it and demanding action, forget it.  Dont get me wrong here, if I were alive in the 1860s I would have thrown my support behind the Confederates and I like the idea in general with regard to the overgrowth of the feds, but Texas has billions upon billions of dollars of sunk costs from previous investments over decades as well as lots of capital continuing to pour into this state.  Watch all of that dry up pretty damn fast if something like this were to occur.  It would take years to get that kind of growth back to a Republic of Texas.



 

So many seem to forget the money aspect of it, which I lightly touched on.
Aside from MIlitary, What about all the other federal jobs that would be gone? How many people would be out of work come Monday morning? 1 million? 2 million?   The UK is not a good corollary for Texas secession

I actually do believe in the principle of secession, but if a state is going to go that route, they better be damn ready for it.  The former Confederate states were not.  And in principle, I agree with what they did...why?  Why, I must be a white racist male who loves slavery right?  No, the US Supreme Court ruled before South Carolina seceded that slavery was legal and proper in this nation, end of story.  Now when Lincoln was elected, i realize that for a lot of these firebrand politicians in the south, they had a short temper back then and felt their economy was gonna get sunk down the drain damn quick, and their political power with it.





If the southern states were serious, they should have tried to build up industry years before an actual secession but that's hard to do with the very nature of our style of government, not to mention you cant guarantee keeping this a secret.  Plenty of people will talk.  At the very least, the southern states, had they remained in the union, could have drawn out the political process of Lincoln trying to pass a 13th amendment.  Hell for all we know, Lincoln would have implemented his plan to send all the blacks back to Africa early and drawn up some serious federal money to compensate all slave owners.  

 

I personally don't believe that anyone would resort to military force to try keep a state, or states from seceding in the modern day and age provided it was the result of a popular vote. I just don't think there would be the national will required to go there. Hell we don't even have the national will to fight an enemy that is trying to destroy us

Sadly, I believe the rules of engagement would be entirely different for me and you vs the ragheads.

I posted this in the big gd discussion:

When/if it ever comes to that point of Texas leaving, a big decision is going to have to be made by everyone in Texas. Financially, emotionally, physically, and spiritually.

Things will be hard but is each and everyone calling for secession willing to give up a tremendous amount to protect and preserve something much bigger than themselves? Willing to give up seeing their families with the possibility of little to no pay? Willing to maybe die in the name of the Republic of Texas? Those of you with tanks understand what I'm talking about more than those of us without.

I have a four year old and a one year old son to think about. Their future under tyranny with a father or their future enjoying freedom without a father.

I would hope if/when it comes to that point, I'd have the balls to do the right thing. It might not happen in my lifetime but I hope it does for my son's sake. If not, I hope I raise two young men with the sense and belief that freedom is not free and sometimes it sucks to keep it.

Long Live The Republic of Texas.

Well put.

I think Texas could be successful as an independent country, but not as successful as Texas can currently be as part of the United States. That may change under a Hillary presidency if the democrats can pull off a "supermajority" again.

I think way too many people loose sight of what happens after independence and focus too much on #RepublicOfTexas pride. Trade (or lack thereof) with the other states; having to secure two large international boarders; maintaining a Texas military (including manufacturing or buying equipment from the US / Russia / China); loosing the international influence that a 300+ million person country would have.

Best case, Texas would at least start as a nuclear power. Having the ability to turn New York, Chicago, and DC into wreckage might prevent a second Civil War at least.

And I'm ignoring the current demographics shift. Texas is quickly becoming an urban rather than rural state, which could push politics to the far left.

If there was an actual movement, I think Oklahoma, Louisiana, maybe new Mexican, Arizona and much of the mid West would try to follow suit. Combine all those states and you have a sizable economic and military power.

Texas has just about everything it needs to become self sufficient. A lot of good ol boys would be running to the recruiting office to wear the Texas flag on their shoulder. Including myself.

What good is having oil if no one buys it? The US has oil, but imports most of its needs from countries like Mexico and Canada. And those are US companies running these refineries. What happens when they pull out along with the other US companies that call Texas home? What's the job market going to look like and where are we going to have the funds to support unemployment? What of all the federally funded programs that the elderly depend on? What relief are the cities that feel the hit of a tornado or crash of a hurricane going to get when we can't afford to dump million, if not billions into reconstruction?

As great as this state may have been had it developed on it's own, we are deeply entrenched in this union. We depend on guns, food, military and commerce from our union.

I'm all for freedom, but it would take generations of careful and deliberate planning to accomplish a succession that doesn't result in a 3rd world country.


Ok, maybe that's being a bit dramatic.

Best case is the world bows to TX, all illegal immigrants get out in 87 minutes, and cash rains on us.

How exactly would we be a nuclear power?  Did the state get some nuclear weapons I'm unaware of?  Do we have large stores of base materials that could eventually become weapons?

As much as I cherish the thought of a 'free Texas', remember, it is a lot like being in a gang-
Blood In, Blood Out

It's not dramatic, it's practical thinking.  Damn near every person I've ever talked to about Texas secession or every web site I've read regarding it only mentions encroaching federal power and violation of our rights, etc.  I agree with these, yet no one has put forth any sort of real economic plan for how Republic of Texas sustains itself.  It's always about Texas pride that's supposed to just "work".  Even if Texas does manage to secede, by no means is any company obligated to stay.  Do you think ExxonMobil is just going to sit by and watch as billions of capital investment is called into question.  Combine that with thousands of other large companies and you're delusional if you think they'll all stay put and everything will go on business as usual.
Our oil/gas reserves will sustain our economy?  No it won't.  There's no way the energy sector would support an economy we've grown used to and provide a lifestyle we're accustomed to because if we have to export oil/gas, no one seems to stop and realize Republic of Texas now has to compete with all of OPEC, Russia, Canada, and now the U.S.  It's called selling your goods on the open market and RoT would be at a distinct disadvantage.  
No I fully expect what would actually happen if secession did occur, RoT is formed and what the hell we even get several European nations to even recognize our sovereignty.  U.S. pulls out and leaves on favorable terms even!  What will happen first is Mexican cartels, likely Mexican armed forces themselves, will move north and take territory from RoT immediately.  What sort of military will RoT be able to organize so quickly?  This is not going to go the way a lot of people think, invoking the Alamo and whatnot.  Mexico can get their hands on armor and possibly missiles if they really wanted.  What do we have to counter this?  Major US defense contractors will be the first to pull up stakes...I'm sure they would sell to us, but what value is RoT money?  What training do new RoT citizens have?  What military does it have?  
This is just stuff I've thought of in the span of about 5 minutes.  Who knows what else I'm missing.
 

One question still applies.
Death under tyranny or death in defense of freedom.
This same question was asked some 240 years ago.

BTW I'm not disagreeing with you one bit. You have some extremely valid points we should all consider.

Kind of, but it belongs to the US govt.

The Pantex plant in Amarillo is the only facility left in the US that assembles/disassembles nukes and they store most of the cores from deactivated weapons on site.

This I know.  People seem to think k the US government would just say OK, and TX would be sovereign.  Never mind all the federal toys in the state that would be leaving.  

I had friends at the last platform meeting a month or so ago. The "powers that be" within the party did everything they could to tamp down a platform plank on this very point.

And many of those would become state jobs. When you no longer pay Federal Taxes---and receive the associated "benefits", you have to replace that money somehow- meaning Texas will need "revenooers" of one kind or another......Texas would need a defense force of some kind. Yes, much smaller than the Federal foot print in Texas but there would be jobs there nonetheless. The EPA would disappear- TECQ would be hiring. DEA would be gone. Texas Rangers would be hiring. The Border Patrol would be gone- we would rebuild it LARGER I'm guessing.....We would need our own customs officers.....

As much as capital would flow OUT of Texas, I believe capital would flow IN as well. Many people would leave certainly- good riddance. I think there would be a very large in flow as well- people fed the hell up with the US Federal Government from all corners of the US.

I absolutely believe it would be painful. It's a price many are willing to bear to have a better chance at real freedom.

The oil companies currently have operations in nations all over the globe. They are used to operating "over seas". They aren't leaving. In fact, given the current Greeny Weenie agenda much in favor in Washington- and seeing how the Coal Industry has been absolutely bankrupted, they might very well be VERY DAMN HAPPY to be in Texas vs. the "U.S".  As far as Social Security etc.....it goes technically bankrupt in 2034....That's not THAT far away. Texas, if you take out the military bases, sends FAR MORE money out than we get back from the Feds. Any "federal programs" we currently benefit from- we can self fund- especially if we pare them back. Welfare etc....School mandates etc....would be greatly curtailed.

While we are of course famous for oil, our agriculture produces HUGE revenues as well.....and somehow, I don't think anyone has found a way to move Texas ranch and farm land to Illinois......


Texas Ag Stats

Texas leads the nation in cattle, cotton, hay, sheep, goats and mohair production. Texas leads the nation in number of farms and ranches, with 248,800 farms and ranches covering 130.2 million acres. 1 of every 7 working Texans (14%) is in an agriculture-related job. 98.6% of Texas farms and ranches are family farms, partnerships or family-held corporations.        


The economic impact of the food and fiber sector totals more than $100 billion annually.
Agricultural cash receipts, including timber, average $20 billion annually.
Top 10 commodities in terms of cash receipts in 2012:
Cattle, $10.5 billion
Cotton, $2.2 billion
Milk, $1.8 billion
Broilers, $1.7 billion
Greenhouse & nursery, $1.3 billion
Corn, $1.2 billion
Grain Sorghum, $594 million
Wheat, $538 million
Vegetables, $439 million
Eggs, $439 million

Agricultural exports to foreign countries totaled $6.5 billion in 2012.
Texas ranks # 6 overall in value of agricultural exports.
Texas' national rank for selected commodity exports:
          1 - Cotton & cottonseed, $1.6 billion
          1 - Beef, $855 million  
          1 - Hides & skins, $431 million        
          2 - Seeds for planting, $244 million  
          4 - Tree nuts, $66 million  
          4 - Rice, $119 million      
          6 - Broilers, $323 million        
          6 - Milk and milk products, $248 million
          9 - Wheat, $286 million  
         10 - Feeds & fodders, $172 million      
         10 - Grain products, $171 million
         11 - Fresh fruits, $54 million      
         13 - Corn, $157 million
         13 - Sugar, $27 million
         15 - Fresh vegetables, $39 million

( All facts and Figures Stolen from Ag Commissioners website)

An interested concept, except the "Fed" toys don't belong to the "Fed", they belong to the people, and hey, that would be us right?

freedomtexas.org is working out the transition plan from state to republic - currency - economic policy - security and defense

An invasion by Mexico will never happen. They have NOTHING to invade with. The Mexican military has not one single tank. Not one. Zero. They have 6 F5's- that is the sum total of their jet airforce. What level of experience do their pilots have? Do you really think they get any flight time at all? How could they when they are flying F5's? Do you realize that under "transportation" the Mexican Army TOE lists "Dodge Ram Truck" as a primary transport?........Any idea how many F150's are sold in Texas in a year?

As far as personnel, the newly formed Texas Defense Force would have many thousands of veterans and even active duty personnel who would likely stay and transition along with a substantial "Home Guard" that could be spun up very quickly with trained Cadre. I don't think we would have much trouble putting together a very capable force in short order- at least for strictly defensive purposes.

Equipment. Big question mark there. What do we need? Where would we get it?

1. What do we need- We need a navy with the ability to protect our coastline and ensure that our fleet is able to freely navigate the Gulf. This does not require an Aircraft carrier etc.....Maybe a frigate or two......quite a few Patrol craft. There are plenty of good anti ship missile systems that could be land based that would cover any conceivable "sphere of influence" we would need in the Gulf.  I know little of Naval operations honestly but none of our "neighbors" save the US, have much of a navy at all.....We need maybe a few tanks, a bunch of heavily armored "scout" type vehicles/APC's and transport. In aircraft, we need some jet fighters though not that many- two dozen at most.... we need helicopter gunships to deter invasion and of course troop transports, we need some CAS type aircraft.

2. Where do we get the Equipment we do need? Several possibilities. Federal stores left behind. Realize that when Ukraine left the USSR, they acquired NUCLEAR WEAPONS- and every conceivable sort of conventional munitions in the Russian Arsenal. The Russians pulled out and left them. The simple fact is, Texas Taxpayers have bought and paid for one hell of a lot of US military hardware.

What if the Feds "take all their toys and go home"? Then we buy what we need on the open market.

There are a large number of countries- including some relatively new to the market, that are aggressively seeking to sell military hardware. Brazil would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to sell some Tucanos- and they are the type of CAS aircraft we could actually use. The South Africans would gladly sell us Rookiats, Reva's, Mambas, Nyala APC's, OR, we could source Guaranis from Brazil. The Brazillians have just spun up that line and are selling quite a few, a few add ons would be an easy deal. The French were recently building a couple of Assault Helicopter Ships for....THE RUSSIANS.....How can you think they would build military weapons for a Sworn enemy of Nato but not Texas? The French have a long history of selling weapons to ANYONE----ask the British about French anti ship missiles- and the US for that matter.....The South Koreans have a huge ship building industry and are actively developing military export business. There are plenty of places to buy what we would need.

Will you make some good points and post good info.  I don't post the stuff I do to shit all over the idea; remember I do believe in the principle of secession.  But people supporting such a concept have to realize just how serious such an action is especially to the economy of a new nation.  



The stats you posted for example regarding agriculture are excellent, and I think the given some new Republic of Texas (RoT) support, the Ag industry could provide subsistence level economy for everyone currently living in Texas.  Of course, if RoT is formed, a lot of people will leave so that will increase the yield for those who stay.  But my point here is that the Ag economy, even if ramped up, is NOT going to be able to sustain Texas current economy it enjoys as a state of the US.  Even if you factor in our energy resources, again, still not going to be able to get us there.



A new RoT would have several economic problems to address immediately.  The first, what taxes to levy and how much.  The problem here is that you've got a lot of capital leaving the new nation and you cannot guarantee any new inflow of capital will be able to replace what is left.  On top of that, personal income will drop.  On top of that even, you need to have very attractive business taxes in place to lure people into setting up shop here.  



Now as for a personal income tax...let me LOL for a second.  The state has no personal income tax.  Native Texans sure as hell aren't going to support such a scheme and people who move here from other states very quickly get used to not paying any state income taxes.  This is a suicidal proposition for any polician to suggest something like it.  But because RoT is different from State of Texas, the people should suddenly be in favor of one?  It won't work.  Even if you try to throw in a new property tax for everything in all of Texas that goes straight to the state, people will catch on to this quickly and shut it down.  



So let's go over this again.  Personal taxes aren't going to be able to pay for shit in new RoT, business taxes have to be low to attract companies to set up shop here.  This is not going to be enough to support a military to deal with Mexico, and RoT WILL need a military force despite how much you want to categorize them (Mexico) as some has-been operational force.  The RoT economy is going to suck and suck hard for a minimum of an entire generation - the generation that fights in favor of secession to begin with.  I'm willing to bet the majority of those people will have no idea the kind of struggle they will be in for.  When you're trying to just get by and put food on the table for the average RoT citizen and his family, it's going to be difficult putting together a Border Defense Force of men who are militarily trained AND have the necessary equipment and supplies to carry out that mission.  And let me also add the 800 pound gorilla that hasn't been mentioned yet, the US decides "screw it, we're taking you back by military force anyway", who will stop them?  The answer is no one.



Lastly, one thing I have not touched on yet at all the RoT money.  When RoT starts issuing its own money, its on the world market and its value is going to rank up there with probably Zimbabwe for the first decade.  What credit does new RoT have with other nations?  Zero.  What value does RoT money have?  Well, it won't be zero, but it's not going to be much at all.  How is RoT money going to buy a new tank?  Ammo?  Hell even just supplies like clothing?  How far will RoT citizens' money go if they cross into the US to visit family?  They'll be lucky to be able to buy lunch.  Who would be willing to extend RoT credit?  Ahhh...that's the real question.  



In my humble opinion, if RoT ever managed to get off the ground and wants to have any chance for survival, they better send diplomats ASAP to Russia to find some kind of common ground or something they can negotiate on for trade because the U.S. damn sure isn't going to sell us any military weaponry.  RoT is on the blacklist for exports right off the bat.

I did not read the thread.... but.
Bad idea. I couldn't support leaving the rest of the states out in the cold.

Yes, I easily concede there are plenty of problems.

But two things- 1. We know it can be done. Look at the entire East Block that essentially broke away from the Russians. Poland, Romania, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Yugoslavia.... They faced many of the same issues but had NO REAL market economies or even basic infrastructure whatsoever. We start with that advantage- we understand business and have a functioning, modern economy in place. We have a good transport system and a good communications system. We have a huge number of highly skilled workers. Yes, some, maybe many will leave- but I think many would stay. The Frontier ALWAYS CREATED OPPORTUNITY!  We have a world class University System with HUGE endowments- that money doesn't go away..... Now, some of those professors certainly leave- Creating opportunities for others to take their place.... 2. That's something I think that needs to be considered- for every "problem" that we face- there is a Solution for SOMEONE TO FIND. Take fighter jets. Big problem right? Let's say we take that as an opportunity instead. We develop an unmanned drone that serves that same purpose- many military theorists believe that day is coming and not far off.....That of course takes time but I don't foresee an immediate invasion by anyone either....That's just one, maybe not so good example though of the old adage the necessity is the mother of invention- that idea drove the US to the top of the heap......

I dunno what level of sacrifice most people would be willing to commit to. Personally, I would forego my SS payments. My business doesn't depend on Federal Dollars in any way shape or form so I'm not too worried about that aspect of things. I would be willing to pay more in taxes- in whatever form they came.  I would volunteer for "Home Guard" duty- I'm 47, not exactly prime Infantry material.....but, I have trained under a dozen or more of the finest shooting instructors in the world, I compete in several Run and Guns- I'm reasonably fit and know how to "shit in the woods". I've got more than enough gear to equip myself and half a dozen others quite well. Being reasonable about what I can do, I would be willing to teach what I know or to spend a month or two at a border check point in Baja Oklahoma if they would have me or even serve in some sort of local Constabulary position, freeing younger men for other tasks..... I'm an attorney by trade and if there were some way I could use those skills to help, I would do that too.

If the choice is terrible sacrifice now or seeing my children and eventual grand children completely enslaved- which I absolutely believe is coming- I'll do whatever I can and I don't think I'm alone by any means.

You would be one of the few and that right there is the main problem and why most folks would never vote to do this. Getting a majority of Texans to support giving up so many things including SS, Medicare, WIC, CHIP, VA loans, SBA loans, etc. would be a major undertaking and would ultimately fail. You posed the choice of terrible sacrifice now or eventual enslavement. The terrible sacrifice is something that people could see and imagine and would not choose to do it, especially when the idea that they are being enslaved by the government is ludicrous to them.

This is always an interesting conversation but I would bet that if we held a vote to secede....even given a reasonable amount of time to educate folks.....that less than 10% would vote for it. This isn't 1861. The country and the state has changed. Remember, as bad as Obama is, a lot of people voted for him and a good number of them live here.

Will,



I get that you're very patriotic about Texas and believe that Texas on its own could do better in the long run than being attached to the teat of the U.S.  I understand this.  I know there are many others of similar mindset in this state.  I also know that many of these people would associate with organizations setup explicitly for the purpose of getting Texas out of the USA, that's fine.  I'm patriotic also about my country and I admit I'm not a native Texan.  I don't think however that disqualifies me from understanding the Texan mindset.  I've gotten to know many native Texans in my decades here in this state and I appreciate its history and culture that is unique and distinguishes it from all other states.  That sort of love for this state, a former country, is not lost upon me.  Hell I appreciate the spirit that people exhibit when they talk about the possibilities of "what if"; that's the kind of spirit that helps drive innovation.
The thing is for all the details I've read from these organizations on the how-to steps to implement such a plan, they've not thought this through.  Most of people I've spoken with who are in favor of secession seem to rely too much on RoT patriotism to just make everything work, relying on 'someone will find a solution' as the answer.  Hell even a couple of state politicians I've seen that seem open to the idea have no fucking clue, or at least that's the impression they give off when broached with the subject.  Now they may just be placating whoever it is that's asking (always on the lookout for votes next election cycle!), but I also can't believe that out of all the people that discuss this subject that someone hasn't really stepped up to the plate and examined in intricate detail, the steps needed and a real, honest look of what would happen if all this stuff went down.  
Just look at the FAQs on some secessionist web sites, heck the Texas Nationalist site seems to be the best organized and their answers in the FAQ are abysmal.  It's evident they have not given serious thought about movement of citizens or defense, not to mention they are equally nuts if they think all companies will just stay.  I hate that this state sends so much money to the feds every year and we get more stupid laws and encroaching regulations on our rights in return, but dont think for one damn second that if RoT became a reality and suddenly all those billions of dollars are now available to use for "other, more important stuff" that that will magically make everything alright.  Don't delude yourself into thinking the U.S. must play fairly on exports, tariffs, currency manipulation or any other host of things that can happen.  
And to slam the point home even more, I posted this once or twice in GD where it was lost on the typical GD mouthbreathers.  This whole Brexit event has solidified the U.S. as the dominant world superpower for decades to come precisely because the destruction of the EU is a very real possibility now.  The euro currency was in fact the ONLY currency which has ever given the US dollar actual real competition for the position of the world's reserve currency.  All these die-hard socialists in south america and europe got the middle east up in tissy a number of years ago with talk of oil transactions in euros instead.  No other nation, no other currency has ever been able to pose such a threat.  That threat is now completely gone.  The euro isn't going to go through some resurgence, it isn't going to gain power, it's going to go the way of the Zimbabwe dollar at some point.
A RoT currency has to compete against the U.S. dollar.  Think long and hard about the challenge that single factor alone poses.


 

Other than economic collapse, the biggest threat would be the cartel. As gung-ho as we all may be, with no US military to fear, it would be a blood bath along the border.

And as already stated, this is all a pipe dream. While there are quite a few people that are self sufficient and completely capable of taking care of themselves, there a vast majority that wouldn't be able to. And that's why the major cities of this state would never vote to suceed. And as states like California, Washington, Illinois, NY, etc, have shown, the votes come from the major cities and not the outlining communities.

Honestly, I had not previously educated myself on the finances of it all. But I have looked into it a little because the "economics" of it are what worry people the most. So, here is what I have learned.

We all KNOW that Social Security will be Bankrupt in 2034. Even the damn US Gov. OMB says so. This is not theory, this is not maybe, it's statistical FACT as of right now- unless Congress does something serious, and you KNOW they won't, not really- the "trust fund" is out of money. Period.

Second, Texas is a "donor" state. We send MORE MONEY to the Feds than we get back- by FAR. How so?

First, all of the "Federal Workers"- including military are included in the "money sent to Texas". Even so, Federal Workers ONLY MAKE UP 1.7% of the Texas work force! They are a TINY FRACTION OF OUR POPULATION, despite the huge military bases etc....we have a very small number of "government employees" as a percentage of our work force. I had not realized this before. We're just a huge damn state with lots of folks working in the private sector!

HERE

That's ALMOST within the statistical margin of error in unemployment statistics.  Assuming EVERY FEDERAL EMPLOYEE lost their jobs and were not hired by the state, could find NOTHING else do do, didn't simply leave the state- you aren't talking about some HUGE number. Loss of "federal jobs" would not be a major blow to the Texas economy. Would it hurt? Yes, but not nearly as much as some would like to think- the numbers just aren't there. Again, one in Seven Texans works in Agriculture alone- and ag jobs aren't going anywhere! We have a very broad based economy with large numbers of people in Energy, Ag, Healthcare, Education, Retail and Finance, Manufacturing etc....

But, How much Money do we send to Washington and how much do they send back to us? Well, according to a study done by the folks at the Texas Nationalist Movement (Went to their site for the first time today!--Should have done so long ago....) We actually pay over $110 Billion more to the Feds per year than they send to us--$265 Billion vs. 162 billion spent in Texas-NOT including SS Payments. If you include that- ie, we had to fund Washingtons SS payments as a State, we only send about $30 billion more than we receive......We in theory could fully fund all Federal payments to Texas (Even including military- which we CLEARLY would not need in terms of size) and still run a small surplus.

IF, we decided to fully fund the Texas military at levels the Feds are funding all our facilities- $42 billion per year- the Texas military would be on a par with the militaries of Germany, Japan and India in terms of expenditures. We would be spending TWICE per year what the Israelis, Spanish and Italians spend. We would be roughly #10 on the overall list---You can't tell me nobody would want to sell into that market. I'm betting we could license produce all kinds of things that we need here if we wanted to.

Will, I'm not arguing the SS and Medicare aren't sinking ships...clearly they are but try and convince the average American, including those in Texas, of that. AARP and other groups have done an excellent job selling the idea that SS and Medicare are solvent and "it's all good, just a few tweaks will fix it." It's not about reality....it's about perception. Most people don't want to accept the problems this country has because that would mean accepting some pretty harsh consequences.

Gonna select a couple of quotes from previous replies here....







This is actually a good point Will and you're right that's a good market for any weapons manufacturer.  The problem however is that RoT is blacklisted from doing any business with U.S. defense companies period.  That's a huge problem right off the bat.  I'm not talking about fighter jets...I never even talked about fighter jets.  Hell just buy anti-air defenses or whatever instead.  No, I'm talking about armor, missiles, munitions, artillery, etc.  That sort of stuff.  There's always the possibility that one nation still in good favor with the U.S. could act as a reseller, but realistically, how long will that last before the U.S. throws a shitfit on them?  This is precisely why I say start cozying up with Russia really fucking fast.  Even their crap weapons are better than nothing.  



Please don't suggest that RoT will develop its own defense industry to compensate.  Even if such an endeavor were made, it would take years, possibly decades to make any significant impact.


When it comes time to actually address SS and Medicare, something will happen to "fix" it, likely somewhat increased contribution rates and a slight reduction in benefits.  People will grumble, pretty much everyone will accept it though because it's been drilled into their heads for years that there are problems.  Their reasoning will be "at least I'm getting something instead of nothing".



Now good luck getting all RoT citizens to give that up in exchange.   The U.S. is under no obligation to forward that SS money to new RoT citizens.



 

Texas would be fine without the Union. The problem is the Union isn't going to just let all that money go. Just think of the payroll taxes alone.

I have a feeling the world is gonna turn into a really ugly place before I die unless we see some changes in the next couple of years. Supreme court is too busy making up laws and presidents trying to be kings and everyone wants me to pay for it.

I'm not going for full retard prepper, but right now working on my vegetable garden,learning how to can food and all the other obvious stuff we do, isn't a bad idea.

http://mapfight.appspot.com/il-vs-texas/israel-texas-us-size-comparison

http://mapfight.appspot.com/gb-vs-texas/united-kingdom-texas-size-comparison

I agree with the above. We would have the money to buy stuff but who would sell to us? Plus, buying the guns/equipment isn't the hard part. Standing up an army from basically nothing, even with salty veterans to help, would be a daunting task. It would take a few years before we had anything approaching a viable military. Frankly, I would spend the money getting a Border Patrol/Customs service in place before I even started with the military. You think we have border issues now....that transition period from the US BP to whatever we deployed would be a jail break!

My best guess on our most promising "trade partners"? The BRICS nations- Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa.....maybe throw in Argentina, South Korea....All have "hungry" economies and some ability to actually produce shit someone would want to buy..... Two of those would LOVE to poke Uncle Sam in the eye.....The Brazillians and South Africans have great military hardware searching for markets......and neither one gives a shit much what the US thinks, and certainly that is the case with the Russians and Chinese. India is part of the "non aligned" group of nations, I don't see why they wouldn't trade with us as they are not a US ally.....

I can certainly agree that our Border Patrol and Customs would need to be "stood up" quickly.

I think we can all agree that Britain leaving the EU is not the same as Texas suceeding from the USA.

Certainly. But what I want to know is what the alternative is ultimately to Federal Tyranny?

Seriously. What are the real alternatives? Does anyone have a better one? I damn sure want to hear what it is if so. Spare me the whole "We can save the whole country".....You are a booger eating moron if you believe that. It's over, one way or another- the U.S. as we know it is gone, done, over. We cannot survive financially, culturally etc...consistent with the principles of the Founding Fathers. There will be a place on the map that says USA, but it Goddamn sure won't be anything I recognize or have much loyalty to....My loyalty is to an IDEA, and that is dying the death of a thousand cuts every day in what now passes for America.

We either do something or just say fuck it and fade away. Then you get to look in your kids eyes one day or your grandkids and say "Gee, too fucking bad, I had to have my free Viagra through Medicare".

That's the long and short of it.

It may not happen in our lifetime. But if the generations after us have a plan laid down for them. We start today and plan our freedom. They follow our steps. Then, maybe, we can have a successful separation from the union.

But for us to puff out our chests and to proclaim our independence with our guns held high, would end in disaster. And you wouldn't have to worry about disappointing your kids, because they would have perished in the aftermath that the text books would describe as a the Rise and fall of the RoT.

What's the phrase? A lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part.

Then that "ground work" needs to begin immediately. We need to have discussions like the one we are having with solutions or at least options put forth. The reality is that if we wait much more than a generation, we're done anyway. It would be a moot point.

I agree with the jackassery coming out of Washington is terrible.  But again with regard to economics in the U.S., being we hold the world's reserve currency we have an advantage no one else has.  Suppose we incur $100 trillion in more debt.  Ok, at some point there's not going to be enough credit extended on the market for the fed.gov to borrow against.  One of two things can happen...and I say two because we are the world's reserve currency, otherwise any other nation would simply have one option.....  either they trim the budget by cutting out fat and paying down debt so that more credit is available for capital expenditures.   Or option two which no one seems to realize the U.S. federal reserve can do is to redenominate the U.S. dollar.  Suddenly $100 trillion old dollars are worth $1 million new dollars.  Of course there's no going back once this card is played though.





Oh...creditors dont like that?  What creditors?  China?  Europe?  Any sovereign nation?  Any private investors?  Don't like it?  Tough shit.  U.S. now says we're repaying in new U.S. dollars, take it or leave it because we're still the top dog in the world for economic output.  Oh there'll be bitching and yelling like never before from everyone, but when the dust settles, the U.S. will be correct in what they say that we can perform this maneuver to fuck everyone else over for our own benefit if we need.





 

The more likely scenario unfortunately is not Texas seceding from the union, as much as I'd like that...

The likely scenario is that the union will fall apart.  The reason for this is that we've become a nation divided.  The problem is the coasts don't agree with the middle and south.  It is to the point where people from "red states" and "blue states" almost don't have much in common with each other anymore.  It is possible that the country could split up, but not probably just Texas leaving, but split into two or maybe even as many as 3 or 4 smaller countries.

The other problems is that the union may fall apart because the government may just disintegrate if it goes bankrupt.  This could be followed by a military coup, foreign invasion, who knows what.  People just don't know how crazy the incredible national debt the country has accumulated is and what could happen if/when that all comes crashing down.  It may not be end of the earth kind of apocalypse (well, unless a major world war is spawned, which is not entirely unlikely) but it sure could be nation ending.  250 years...  it was a pretty good run.  I'm sure nobody in the middle part of Rome's time as the top civilization thought it could topple...  or the Mayan empire, or any one of many over the years.

Texas will not, and cannot realistically, leave the Union.

If the people of Texas were really interested in greater autonomy and freedom from federal oppression they would set up what only one other state in the Union (North Dakota) has:  a State Bank.

A State currency to be used for internal taxes, projects, etc., would cut a good bit of power from the DC machine.  There is zero excuse for Texas not having a State Bank, other than corrupt/bought politicians, and with GS' boy Joe Straus as the House Speaker (and arguably the most powerful politician in Texas) any mention of one would be DOA.

I've got to say, in my eighteen years on ARFCOM, this may have been one of the best threads I've ever read.

Lots of knowledgeable people saying lots of smart things from both sides of an issue.

Personally I think Texas should stay in the USA for the foreseeable future, but I'd also be very surprised of the USA doesn't break apart in some way before I die; we've become extremely divided and it's only getting worse.

Thank you for this post.  I was totally unaware North Dakota still had a state bank.  Unbelievable!  I remember reading about state banks of the old days back in my history classes in school but for some reason I didn't know about this.  I took some time to look over their site, some of the easy financials I could pull and what their mission for the state is.  It's actually a pretty good idea.



Will if you're still reading this, pay attention.  I know you and other folks feel like you have a need to try and 'do' something to get this effort moving forward for future generations, well I think this may be it.



If Texas were to form its own state bank today for the express purposes of very small business loans (and maybe a little larger too), educational loans, agricultural loans, or even maybe a niche market of loans for farmland property only, and also serve as a depository for state funds and any other local government entity that wanted to deposit their funds, that could make a significant difference.  The stipulations would have to be that all loans should only be issued to bona fide residents in Texas and that the money for the loans have to be used either start a business in Texas or the existing business must be domiciled in Texas.  You'd have to be a resident of the state for say a minimum of 5 years for example.  Educational loans can only be issued for Texas residents attending Texas schools.  Such a bank also opening accounts for the state itself and various counties and cities to be used for general funds like operating expenses, payroll, etc. could certainly go a long way because the bank would loan off those funds and that loaned money would stay in the state.  



For it to really work for a possible future of a RoT, such a bank would need several decades of operational credibility to be taken seriously with any such task like making purchases for supplies for a new RoT or issuing (not printing) new RoT currency.  



So after typing all of that out and re-reading it, yes I think this would be an excellent idea.  But again I can't emphasize enough, it has to be operational for a good long time in order to gain trust but more importantly have a good accounting history so that in the event one day this state finds itself independent, it can rely on this bank to act as a monetary intermediary with possible future creditor nations.