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Posted: 9/9/2014 3:38:46 PM EDT
[#1]
Please do not be surprised at a gun counter worker's ignorance of federal regulations not regularly encountered. It will make your life easier.
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Posted: 9/9/2014 4:14:49 PM EDT
[#2]
You have to be in a neighboring state.
I believe it is Texas law. Some of the guys behind the counter are still in High School and lack educational knowledge. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 4:28:12 PM EDT
[#3]
This is not the first I have heard of such a policy. Not uncommon for policy to be more restrictive than law.
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Posted: 9/9/2014 4:41:49 PM EDT
[#4]
I seem to remember hearing Academy had a gun sales policy or two that were a little more strict than federal law, probably as a way to try to cover their ass with as many different out of state licenses as there are, etc.
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Posted: 9/9/2014 5:06:17 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: I went to buy a shotgun at Academy yesterday. I am an AZ resident in Texas for college, so I have an AZ driver's license and CHL. The ATF policy is that as long as the sale is legal in both the state it happens in and the state of residence of the buyer then it is a legal sale. Academy would not sell to me, claiming I needed to either be a Texas resident, or a resident of a neighboring state. The employee even called his manager to clarify the definition of "neighboring". Is this the policy at all Academy stores or just this one? I am not an FFL, however from my recollection of the state laws is that the sale is not lawful in Texas. The reason is because of what was already stated. It must be a state touching Texas for the FFL to complete the transfer. It also wouldnt be lawful for you to buy a shotgun here in TX and take it back to AZ from a private seller if my memory serves me right on ATF regs. ETA: Q: May a licensed dealer sell a firearm to a non-licensee who is a resident of another State? Generally, a firearm may not lawfully be sold by a licensed dealer to a non-licensee who resides in a State other than the State in which the seller’s licensed premises is located. However, the sale may be made if the firearm is shipped to a licensed dealer whose business is in the purchaser’s State of residence and the purchaser takes delivery of the firearm from the dealer in his or her State of residence. In addition, a licensee may sell a rifle or shotgun to a person who is not a resident of the State where the licensee’s business premises is located in an over-the-counter transaction, provided the transaction complies with State law in the State where the licensee is located and in the State where the purchaser resides. [18 922(b)(3)] Contiguous States. The "contiguous state” provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA), as enacted in 1968, allowed nonlicensed purchasers to acquire long guns from Federal firearms licensees (FFLs) located in a State contiguous to the State in which the purchaser resided if (1) the purchaser’s State of residence permitted such sale and (2) the sale fully complied with the legal conditions of sale in both such contiguous states. This provision of the GCA was amended in 1986 to allow FFLs to sell or dispose of long guns to residents of any other state (not just contiguous states) provided — (1) the transferee meets in person with the FFL to accomplish the transfer; and (2) the sale, delivery and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in the buyer’s and seller’s States. A number of States patterned their laws after the original provision of the GCA that allows nonresidents to purchase long guns from FFLs only in contiguous states. Many of those States have not revised their laws to reflect the 1986 amendments to the GCA that allow over-the-counter sales of long guns to residents of any State, as outlined above. This has caused confusion among FFLs, who often read such "contiguous state” State laws as prohibiting sales to residents of noncontiguous states. ATF does not read State laws that refer to "contiguous states” as prohibiting sales of long guns to residents of noncontiguous states unless the language contained in that State’s law expressly prohibits residents from acquiring firearms outside that State. Thus, if the language in the State laws authorizes sales of long guns to residents of contiguous states, that State law also authorizes the sale of long guns to residents of all other states. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 5:36:09 PM EDT
[#6]
Ah, It didn't occur to me that the sale may be prohibited by state law. That answers that.
I knew it isn't legal for me to buy from a private seller directly in Texas. The way I understand it I would need to have the firearm shipped from the seller to an FFL in AZ in order to make that purchase. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 5:58:29 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You have to be in a neighboring state. I believe it is Texas law. Some of the guys behind the counter are still in High School and lack educational knowledge. Quote HistoryQuoted:
You have to be in a neighboring state. I believe it is Texas law. Some of the guys behind the counter are still in High School and lack educational knowledge. Nonsense. The Federal "contiguous state" law disappeared in 1986. Texas law said it was legal for a resident to purchase in a contiguous state, but never made it illegal (Federal law from 1968-1986 did) Quoted:
I am not an FFL, however from my recollection of the state laws is that the sale is not lawful in Texas.... I am an FFL and there is no such prohibition. 
Texas Penal Code http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm Sec. 46.07. INTERSTATE PURCHASE. A resident of this state may, if not otherwise precluded by law, purchase firearms, ammunition, reloading components, or firearm accessories in another state. This authorization is enacted in conformance with 18 U.S.C. Section 922(b)(3)(A).
Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Renumbered from Penal Code Sec. 46.08 by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994. Amended by: Acts 2009, 81st Leg., R.S., Ch. 280 (S.B. 1188), Sec. 1, eff. May 30, 2009. There has never been a Texas law that prohibited a non resident from buying a firearm in Texas. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 6:01:42 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Academy would not sell to me, claiming I needed to either be a Texas resident, or a resident of a neighboring state. The employee even called his manager to clarify the definition of "neighboring". That law was changed with FOPA86. There are only 28 years out of date. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 6:02:42 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ah, It didn't occur to me that the sale may be prohibited by state law. That answers that. It answers it incorrectly. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 6:42:53 PM EDT
[#10]
So back to the original question then, is that an Academy wide policy, or just a mistake at that location?
If its company wide I'll go to Cabelas or somewhere; if it was just that store I can try a different Academy. FWIW I contacted their customer service department and they didn't know the answer. They told me to contact a store and ask the gun counter. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 6:48:41 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ah, It didn't occur to me that the sale may be prohibited by state law. That answers that. I knew it isn't legal for me to buy from a private seller directly in Texas. The way I understand it I would need to have the firearm shipped from the seller to an FFL in AZ in order to make that purchase. One partial exception is if you get a C&R FFL03 ($30 for 3 years), then you can buy C&R qualified firearms directly from private sellers in any state and even have them shipped directly to you (like through auction sites, for example). Of course this does you no good if the firearm isn't 50+ years old or otherwise on the list... but it is something. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 7:14:02 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nonsense. The Federal "contiguous state" law disappeared in 1986. Texas law said it was legal for a resident to purchase in a contiguous state, but never made it illegal (Federal law from 1968-1986 did) I am an FFL and there is no such prohibition. Texas Penal Code http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm There has never been a Texas law that prohibited a non resident from buying a firearm in Texas. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You have to be in a neighboring state. I believe it is Texas law. Some of the guys behind the counter are still in High School and lack educational knowledge. Nonsense. The Federal "contiguous state" law disappeared in 1986. Texas law said it was legal for a resident to purchase in a contiguous state, but never made it illegal (Federal law from 1968-1986 did) Quoted: I am not an FFL, however from my recollection of the state laws is that the sale is not lawful in Texas.... I am an FFL and there is no such prohibition. Texas Penal Code http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm Sec. 46.07. INTERSTATE PURCHASE. A resident of this state may, if not otherwise precluded by law, purchase firearms, ammunition, reloading components, or firearm accessories in another state. This authorization is enacted in conformance with 18 U.S.C. Section 922(b)(3)(A). Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Renumbered from Penal Code Sec. 46.08 by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994. Amended by: Acts 2009, 81st Leg., R.S., Ch. 280 (S.B. 1188), Sec. 1, eff. May 30, 2009. There has never been a Texas law that prohibited a non resident from buying a firearm in Texas. I understand 46.07, but we arent talking about that in this case as the OP is not a Texas resident, he is from and resides in AZ and tried to buy a gun in TEXAS. So, can he buy the gun at academy? Sure, but he would have to transfer it to an AZ FFL the way I've read the ATF website. no? I think if he had a TX DL and used college address as residency, he would be ok. This shouldn't be so complicated.  ---------from ATF Q: What constitutes residency in a State? The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, "Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication. </dd> |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 7:31:26 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I understand 46.07, but we arent talking about that in this case as the OP is not a Texas resident, he is from and resides in AZ and tried to buy a gun in TEXAS. So, can he buy the gun at academy? Sure, but he would have to transfer it to an AZ FFL the way I've read the ATF website. no? I th This shouldn't be so complicated.
No it is not complicated. In fact YOU already posted the correct answer above at 4:06. Read what you posted yourself: This provision of the GCA was amended in 1986 to allow FFLs to sell or dispose of long guns to residents of any other state (not just contiguous states) provided — (1) the transferee meets in person with the FFL to accomplish the transfer; and (2) the sale, delivery and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in the buyer’s and seller’s States. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 7:35:51 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it is not complicated. In fact YOU already posted the correct answer above at 4:06. Read what you posted yourself: This provision of the GCA was amended in 1986 to allow FFLs to sell or dispose of long guns to residents of any other state (not just contiguous states) provided — (1) the transferee meets in person with the FFL to accomplish the transfer; and (2) the sale, delivery and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in the buyer’s and seller’s States. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I understand 46.07, but we arent talking about that in this case as the OP is not a Texas resident, he is from and resides in AZ and tried to buy a gun in TEXAS. So, can he buy the gun at academy? Sure, but he would have to transfer it to an AZ FFL the way I've read the ATF website. no? I th This shouldn't be so complicated. No it is not complicated. In fact YOU already posted the correct answer above at 4:06. Read what you posted yourself: This provision of the GCA was amended in 1986 to allow FFLs to sell or dispose of long guns to residents of any other state (not just contiguous states) provided — (1) the transferee meets in person with the FFL to accomplish the transfer; and (2) the sale, delivery and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in the buyer’s and seller’s States. It apparently is complicated because Academy sports disagree's. Right or wrong. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 7:36:46 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I understand 46.07, but we arent talking about that in this case as the OP is not a Texas resident, he is from and resides in AZ and tried to buy a gun in TEXAS. The reason I quoted that section is because people are talking about the "contiguous state" law......that disappeared in 1986. At one time Texas lawwas so poorly written that ATF said Texas residents could not buy guns beyond the contiguous states. So, can he buy the gun at academy? Sure, but he would have to transfer it to an AZ FFL the way I've read the ATF website. no? WRONG. I think if he had a TX DL and used college address as residency, he would be ok. If he is residing here in Texas, he lied when he filled out the 4473. The 4473 asks for the buyers CURRENT residence address. If he's living in Texas while attending college....ATF considers him a resident of Texas for the purpose of acquiring a firearm. If his government issued photo ID does not show his current residence address, then he can provide alternate government issued documents that show his name and current address. (the instruction on the 4473 tell you this but no one bothers to read them) This shouldn't be so complicated. It's not complicated in the least.
---------from ATF Q: What constitutes residency in a State? The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, "Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication. This ATF FAQ answer has been wrong since December of 2011....there is no "90 day residency rule". See http://www.atf.gov/files/press/releases/2011/12/122211-atf-open-letter-state-of-residence.pdf |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 7:38:18 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It apparently is complicated because Academy sports disagree's. Right or wrong. It's not complicated if Academy can fucking read. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 7:40:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I understand 46.07, but we arent talking about that in this case as the OP is not a Texas resident, he is from and resides in AZ and tried to buy a gun in TEXAS. The reason I quoted that section is because people are talking about the "contiguous state" law......that disappeared in 1986. At one time Texas lawwas so poorly written that ATF said Texas residents could not buy guns beyond the contiguous states. So, can he buy the gun at academy? Sure, but he would have to transfer it to an AZ FFL the way I've read the ATF website. no? WRONG. I think if he had a TX DL and used college address as residency, he would be ok. If he is residing here in Texas, he lied when he filled out the 4473. The 4473 asks for the buyers CURRENT residence address. If he's living in Texas while attending college....ATF considers him a resident of Texas for the purpose of acquiring a firearm. If his government issued photo ID does not show his current residence address, then he can provide alternate government issued documents that show his name and current address. (the instruction on the 4473 tell you this but no one bothers to read them) This shouldn't be so complicated. It's not complicated in the least.---------from ATF Q: What constitutes residency in a State? The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, "Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication. This ATF FAQ answer has been wrong since December of 2011....there is no "90 day residency rule". See http://www.atf.gov/files/press/releases/2011/12/122211-atf-open-letter-state-of-residence.pdf Can I play the bold BIG text game too? This process of amending the relevant regulations and forms will be completed as expeditiously as possible. Until that process is complete, however, the current regulations have the force of law. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 7:41:02 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's not complicated if Academy can fucking read. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It apparently is complicated because Academy sports disagree's. Right or wrong. It's not complicated if Academy can fucking read. It makes no sense that they would deny a legal gun sale/transfer. ANYWAY, it appears the OP needs to find another place to buy his toys. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 7:47:19 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can I play the bold BIG text game too? This process of amending the relevant regulations and forms will be completed as expeditiously as possible. Until that process is complete, however, the current regulations have the force of law. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I understand 46.07, but we arent talking about that in this case as the OP is not a Texas resident, he is from and resides in AZ and tried to buy a gun in TEXAS. The reason I quoted that section is because people are talking about the "contiguous state" law......that disappeared in 1986. At one time Texas lawwas so poorly written that ATF said Texas residents could not buy guns beyond the contiguous states. So, can he buy the gun at academy? Sure, but he would have to transfer it to an AZ FFL the way I've read the ATF website. no? WRONG. I think if he had a TX DL and used college address as residency, he would be ok. If he is residing here in Texas, he lied when he filled out the 4473. The 4473 asks for the buyers CURRENT residence address. If he's living in Texas while attending college....ATF considers him a resident of Texas for the purpose of acquiring a firearm. If his government issued photo ID does not show his current residence address, then he can provide alternate government issued documents that show his name and current address. (the instruction on the 4473 tell you this but no one bothers to read them) This shouldn't be so complicated. It's not complicated in the least.
---------from ATF Q: What constitutes residency in a State? The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, "Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication. This ATF FAQ answer has been wrong since December of 2011....there is no "90 day residency rule". See http://www.atf.gov/files/press/releases/2011/12/122211-atf-open-letter-state-of-residence.pdf Can I play the bold BIG text game too? This process of amending the relevant regulations and forms will be completed as expeditiously as possible. Until that process is complete, however, the current regulations have the force of law. Well no shit Sherlock. As I said and as I posted............the FAQ is wrong. What fucking purpose is served by trying to explain something that ISN"T CURRENT REGULATION?
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Posted: 9/9/2014 7:52:01 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It makes no sense that they would deny a legal gun sale/transfer.... There are thousands of dealers who would rather pass on a sale than make a mistake that could cost them their FFL. Bullet Trap is #1 on that list with their "NO ABBREVIATIONS" rule. MY IOI says they've been told many times no such regulation exists but they keep telling people it's the law. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 8:43:15 PM EDT
[#21]
So by ATF standards, I am a Texas resident.
What is an example of a Govt-issued document that would prove I live in Texas that could be used as proof for a 4473? |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 9:16:38 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So by ATF standards, I am a Texas resident. What is an example of a Govt-issued document that would prove I live in Texas that could be used as proof for a 4473? 
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Posted: 9/9/2014 9:19:53 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So by ATF standards, I am a Texas resident. What is an example of a Govt-issued document that would prove I live in Texas that could be used as proof for a 4473? Utility bill if issued by a government entity such as a city or MUD. Hunting License Military orders to a permanent duty station. Tax documents It has to be GOVERNMENT issued......a W2 or 1099 from your employer would not work. Or you could drive really fast to Academy and get a government issued traffic ticket.
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Posted: 9/9/2014 10:07:45 PM EDT
[#24]
An FFL does not have to sell a firearm to anyone. You can refuse the sale and go on about your business. Why? Too many hoops to jump through to make sure you comply with BATFE regs. Keep it simple. Keep your license. Sleep like a baby tonight. I am an FFL dealer.
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Posted: 9/9/2014 10:46:14 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Utility bill if issued by a government entity such as a city or MUD. Hunting License Military orders to a permanent duty station. Tax documents It has to be GOVERNMENT issued......a W2 or 1099 from your employer would not work. Or you could drive really fast to Academy and get a government issued traffic ticket. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So by ATF standards, I am a Texas resident. What is an example of a Govt-issued document that would prove I live in Texas that could be used as proof for a 4473? Utility bill if issued by a government entity such as a city or MUD. Hunting License Military orders to a permanent duty station. Tax documents It has to be GOVERNMENT issued......a W2 or 1099 from your employer would not work. Or you could drive really fast to Academy and get a government issued traffic ticket. Academy won't take a utility bill as proof of residence. They want a valid drivers license or ID, State or neighboring state CHL. They'll take a state or neighboring state hunting license and voters registration card if your license is not valid for their SOP. They may take vehicle registration...but I forget. |
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Posted: 9/10/2014 9:48:01 PM EDT
[#26]
Their managers arent aware of all the laws. I bought a rifle out of state and the only reason I got it through is by having a friend who works at academy headquarters get their firearm complience dept involved.
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Posted: 9/11/2014 1:30:05 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am an FFL and there is no such prohibition.
Texas Penal Code http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am an FFL and there is no such prohibition.
Texas Penal Code http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm Sec. 46.07. INTERSTATE PURCHASE. A resident of this state may, if not otherwise precluded by law, purchase firearms, ammunition, reloading components, or firearm accessories in another state. This authorization is enacted in conformance with 18 U.S.C. Section 922(b)(3)(A).
Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Renumbered from Penal Code Sec. 46.08 by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994. Amended by: Acts 2009, 81st Leg., R.S., Ch. 280 (S.B. 1188), Sec. 1, eff. May 30, 2009. Correct, but that Texas law would be for Texas residents purchasing guns in other states. You'd need to look at Arizona law to see if there's anything prohibiting Arizona residents from purchasing firearms in other states. But I'll help, and point you to this link where the NSSF says Arizona residents are clear to purchase guns in other states. |
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Posted: 9/11/2014 10:33:08 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Correct, but that Texas law would be for Texas residents purchasing guns in other states. You'd need to look at Arizona law to see if there's anything prohibiting Arizona residents from purchasing firearms in other states. But I'll help, and point you to this link where the NSSF says Arizona residents are clear to purchase guns in other states. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I am an FFL and there is no such prohibition.
Texas Penal Code http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm Sec. 46.07. INTERSTATE PURCHASE. A resident of this state may, if not otherwise precluded by law, purchase firearms, ammunition, reloading components, or firearm accessories in another state. This authorization is enacted in conformance with 18 U.S.C. Section 922(b)(3)(A).
Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Renumbered from Penal Code Sec. 46.08 by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994. Amended by: Acts 2009, 81st Leg., R.S., Ch. 280 (S.B. 1188), Sec. 1, eff. May 30, 2009. Correct, but that Texas law would be for Texas residents purchasing guns in other states. You'd need to look at Arizona law to see if there's anything prohibiting Arizona residents from purchasing firearms in other states. But I'll help, and point you to this link where the NSSF says Arizona residents are clear to purchase guns in other states. You are quoting out of context. It was in response to this post:
Quoted: I am not an FFL, however from my recollection of the state laws is that the sale is not lawful in Texas.... I am an FFL and there is no such prohibition. |
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Posted: 9/11/2014 10:43:52 AM EDT
[#29]
Sorry, it's difficult to snip quote trees sometimes, especially on a phone.
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Posted: 9/14/2014 8:09:03 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
I went to buy a shotgun at Academy yesterday. I am an AZ resident in Texas for college, so I have an AZ driver's license and CHL. The ATF policy is that as long as the sale is legal in both the state it happens in and the state of residence of the buyer then it is a legal sale. Academy would not sell to me, claiming I needed to either be a Texas resident, or a resident of a neighboring state. The employee even called his manager to clarify the definition of "neighboring". Is this the policy at all Academy stores or just this one? I work part time, at an Academy in TX manning the gun counter. It's the same policy at our store. We do what our firearms compliance department says, regardless of the law. If you have a problem with it, take it up with headquarters. I don't agree with it, but I'm not losing my job over it either. |
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Posted: 9/15/2014 12:59:50 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I work part time, at an Academy in TX manning the gun counter. It's the same policy at our store. We do what our firearms compliance department says, regardless of the law. If you have a problem with it, take it up with headquarters. I don't agree with it, but I'm not losing my job over it either. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I went to buy a shotgun at Academy yesterday. I am an AZ resident in Texas for college, so I have an AZ driver's license and CHL. The ATF policy is that as long as the sale is legal in both the state it happens in and the state of residence of the buyer then it is a legal sale. Academy would not sell to me, claiming I needed to either be a Texas resident, or a resident of a neighboring state. The employee even called his manager to clarify the definition of "neighboring". Is this the policy at all Academy stores or just this one? I work part time, at an Academy in TX manning the gun counter. It's the same policy at our store. We do what our firearms compliance department says, regardless of the law. If you have a problem with it, take it up with headquarters. I don't agree with it, but I'm not losing my job over it either. That's what I wanted to know, thanks. I went to Cabela's; they sold me the shotgun. |
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Posted: 9/15/2014 4:29:44 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's what I wanted to know, thanks. I went to Cabela's; they sold me the shotgun. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I went to buy a shotgun at Academy yesterday. I am an AZ resident in Texas for college, so I have an AZ driver's license and CHL. The ATF policy is that as long as the sale is legal in both the state it happens in and the state of residence of the buyer then it is a legal sale. Academy would not sell to me, claiming I needed to either be a Texas resident, or a resident of a neighboring state. The employee even called his manager to clarify the definition of "neighboring". Is this the policy at all Academy stores or just this one? I work part time, at an Academy in TX manning the gun counter. It's the same policy at our store. We do what our firearms compliance department says, regardless of the law. If you have a problem with it, take it up with headquarters. I don't agree with it, but I'm not losing my job over it either. That's what I wanted to know, thanks. I went to Cabela's; they sold me the shotgun. Interesting. I always figured it was the way Academy was doing it. They are complete jackasses for declining a legal sale.
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Posted: 9/15/2014 4:29:44 PM EDT
[#33]
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Posted: 9/15/2014 8:10:14 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting. I always figured it was the way Academy was doing it. They are complete jackasses for declining a legal sale. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I went to buy a shotgun at Academy yesterday. I am an AZ resident in Texas for college, so I have an AZ driver's license and CHL. The ATF policy is that as long as the sale is legal in both the state it happens in and the state of residence of the buyer then it is a legal sale. Academy would not sell to me, claiming I needed to either be a Texas resident, or a resident of a neighboring state. The employee even called his manager to clarify the definition of "neighboring". Is this the policy at all Academy stores or just this one? I work part time, at an Academy in TX manning the gun counter. It's the same policy at our store. We do what our firearms compliance department says, regardless of the law. If you have a problem with it, take it up with headquarters. I don't agree with it, but I'm not losing my job over it either. That's what I wanted to know, thanks. I went to Cabela's; they sold me the shotgun. Interesting. I always figured it was the way Academy was doing it. They are complete jackasses for declining a legal sale. They may have been burned by the ATF or something, I don't know. Academy is a great place to work and upper mgmt actually does seem to know what they're doing, so I'm sure they have a reason. I doubt the manager looked at the guy as he walked in and said "that fucker looks like a fucker! Fuck him! No sale!" |
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Posted: 9/15/2014 8:20:25 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
......They are complete jackasses for declining a legal sale. That's a little harsh. Businesses are free to do business with whoever they choose. Academy probably believes it is too risky to sell firearms to those who don't reside in the same states where Academy does business. And by "risky" I mean the risk of losing their ability to sell firearms. It is an increasingly difficult task to keep up with what is legal under various state laws..........and that's why you see many online firearm retailers refusing to do ANY business with NY, MD, NJ and CA. I would guess Academy believes the risk is not worth the benefits. |
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Posted: 9/15/2014 10:25:44 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's a little harsh. Businesses are free to do business with whoever they choose. Academy probably believes it is too risky to sell firearms to those who don't reside in the same states where Academy does business. And by "risky" I mean the risk of losing their ability to sell firearms. It is an increasingly difficult task to keep up with what is legal under various state laws..........and that's why you see many online firearm retailers refusing to do ANY business with NY, MD, NJ and CA. I would guess Academy believes the risk is not worth the benefits. Exactly what a lot of FFL's think. If you screw up. there goes your license......but hey you made $20 on that last sale. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted:, ......They are complete jackasses for declining a legal sale. That's a little harsh. Businesses are free to do business with whoever they choose. Academy probably believes it is too risky to sell firearms to those who don't reside in the same states where Academy does business. And by "risky" I mean the risk of losing their ability to sell firearms. It is an increasingly difficult task to keep up with what is legal under various state laws..........and that's why you see many online firearm retailers refusing to do ANY business with NY, MD, NJ and CA. I would guess Academy believes the risk is not worth the benefits. Exactly what a lot of FFL's think. If you screw up. there goes your license......but hey you made $20 on that last sale. |
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Posted: 9/15/2014 10:31:55 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Exactly what a lot of FFL's think. If you screw up. there goes your license......but hey you made $20 on that last sale. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:,
......They are complete jackasses for declining a legal sale. That's a little harsh. Businesses are free to do business with whoever they choose. Academy probably believes it is too risky to sell firearms to those who don't reside in the same states where Academy does business. And by "risky" I mean the risk of losing their ability to sell firearms. It is an increasingly difficult task to keep up with what is legal under various state laws..........and that's why you see many online firearm retailers refusing to do ANY business with NY, MD, NJ and CA. I would guess Academy believes the risk is not worth the benefits. Exactly what a lot of FFL's think. If you screw up. there goes your license......but hey you made $20 on that last sale. <---FFL
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Posted: 9/15/2014 10:34:59 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's a little harsh. Businesses are free to do business with whoever they choose. Academy probably believes it is too risky to sell firearms to those who don't reside in the same states where Academy does business. And by "risky" I mean the risk of losing their ability to sell firearms. It is an increasingly difficult task to keep up with what is legal under various state laws..........and that's why you see many online firearm retailers refusing to do ANY business with NY, MD, NJ and CA. I would guess Academy believes the risk is not worth the benefits. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
......They are complete jackasses for declining a legal sale. That's a little harsh. Businesses are free to do business with whoever they choose. Academy probably believes it is too risky to sell firearms to those who don't reside in the same states where Academy does business. And by "risky" I mean the risk of losing their ability to sell firearms. It is an increasingly difficult task to keep up with what is legal under various state laws..........and that's why you see many online firearm retailers refusing to do ANY business with NY, MD, NJ and CA. I would guess Academy believes the risk is not worth the benefits. Granted I am NOT a FFL, but I've sold (2) firearms in EE to a guy in CA and one in NY... Didn't take me long to research the laws to make sure it was legal for me to send to FFL in either state. 
Still at how an out of state individual can send a gun to a FFL in CA without any hassle VS a out of state FFl....
I can imagine being a dealer having a BUNCH of guns coming and going |
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Posted: 9/16/2014 2:54:34 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Granted I am NOT a FFL, but I've sold (2) firearms in EE to a guy in CA and one in NY... Didn't take me long to research the laws to make sure it was legal for me to send to FFL in either state.
Still at how an out of state individual can send a gun to a FFL in CA without any hassle VS a out of state FFl....
I can imagine being a dealer having a BUNCH of guns coming and going Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
......They are complete jackasses for declining a legal sale. That's a little harsh. Businesses are free to do business with whoever they choose. Academy probably believes it is too risky to sell firearms to those who don't reside in the same states where Academy does business. And by "risky" I mean the risk of losing their ability to sell firearms. It is an increasingly difficult task to keep up with what is legal under various state laws..........and that's why you see many online firearm retailers refusing to do ANY business with NY, MD, NJ and CA. I would guess Academy believes the risk is not worth the benefits. Granted I am NOT a FFL, but I've sold (2) firearms in EE to a guy in CA and one in NY... Didn't take me long to research the laws to make sure it was legal for me to send to FFL in either state.
Still at how an out of state individual can send a gun to a FFL in CA without any hassle VS a out of state FFl....
I can imagine being a dealer having a BUNCH of guns coming and going IIRC, there is more BS that an FFL has to go through to send a gun to a CA FFL. As an individual without a license, you don't have a license to loose. |
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Posted: 9/16/2014 5:36:09 PM EDT
[#40]
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IIRC, there is more BS that an FFL has to go through to send a gun to a CA FFL. As an individual without a license, you don't have a license to loose. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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.......Still at how an out of state individual can send a gun to a FFL in CA without any hassle VS a out of state FFl....
I can imagine being a dealer having a BUNCH of guns coming and going IIRC, there is more BS that an FFL has to go through to send a gun to a CA FFL. As an individual without a license, you don't have a license to loose. It's simple for a nonlicensee to ship to a California dealer...........you ship it just like you would to any other dealer. Dealers who ship to California dealers must first register with the California Dept of Justice. (It tales less than five minutes to do so) Then before shipping get a Firearm Shipment Verification from the Cali DOJ...........it takes less than a minute. /You print the approval page and include it with the firearm. It's a very simple process. |
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Posted: 9/16/2014 5:49:31 PM EDT
[#41]
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It's simple for a nonlicensee to ship to a California dealer...........you ship it just like you would to any other dealer. Dealers who ship to California dealers must first register with the California Dept of Justice. (It tales less than five minutes to do so) Then before shipping get a Firearm Shipment Verification from the Cali DOJ...........it takes less than a minute. /You print the approval page and include it with the firearm. It's a very simple process. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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.......Still at how an out of state individual can send a gun to a FFL in CA without any hassle VS a out of state FFl....
I can imagine being a dealer having a BUNCH of guns coming and going IIRC, there is more BS that an FFL has to go through to send a gun to a CA FFL. As an individual without a license, you don't have a license to loose. It's simple for a nonlicensee to ship to a California dealer...........you ship it just like you would to any other dealer. Dealers who ship to California dealers must first register with the California Dept of Justice. (It tales less than five minutes to do so) Then before shipping get a Firearm Shipment Verification from the Cali DOJ...........it takes less than a minute. /You print the approval page and include it with the firearm. It's a very simple process. Say for example I had a C&R FFL03 and I shipped to a FFL01 in CA, following Federal laws... But didn't register with CA DOJ. What, if anything could CA do about it? I have no plans to sell any firearms, let alone to anyone in CA... but I see lots of dealers and C&Rs on gun auction sites who refuse to sell to CA... so there has to be some reason for that... |
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Posted: 9/16/2014 6:00:34 PM EDT
[#42]
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Say for example I had a C&R FFL03 and I shipped to a FFL01 in CA, following Federal laws... But didn't register with CA DOJ. What, if anything could CA do about it? You would violate California law. I don't know if its a felony or misdemeanor, but I'm sure there is a criminal penalty. If caught the State of California could charge you with violating their state laws.........doesn't matter that you have never been to California. I have no plans to sell any firearms, let alone to anyone in CA... but I see lots of dealers and C&Rs on gun auction sites who refuse to sell to CA... so there has to be some reason for that... Mostly they won't sell to a Cali resident because they are ignorant of how easy it is to ship to a Cali dealer. if they are scared of shipping a prohibited firearm the Cali dealer will be glad to tell them whether its CA legal. Internet myth is that a dealer has to jump through a lot of hoops........which is bullshit. |
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Posted: 9/16/2014 6:15:39 PM EDT
[#43]
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Say for example I had a C&R FFL03 and I shipped to a FFL01 in CA, following Federal laws... But didn't register with CA DOJ. What, if anything could CA do about it? You would violate California law. I don't know if its a felony or misdemeanor, but I'm sure there is a criminal penalty. If caught the State of California could charge you with violating their state laws.........doesn't matter that you have never been to California. I have no plans to sell any firearms, let alone to anyone in CA... but I see lots of dealers and C&Rs on gun auction sites who refuse to sell to CA... so there has to be some reason for that... Mostly they won't sell to a Cali resident because they are ignorant of how easy it is to ship to a Cali dealer. if they are scared of shipping a prohibited firearm the Cali dealer will be glad to tell them whether its CA legal. Internet myth is that a dealer has to jump through a lot of hoops........which is bullshit. O.K., so if they found out would CA actually bother to try to charge someone? And it they do would they go to the trouble to try to extradite them to CA for an offence that only amounted to not filling out some paperwork? Or would it only be an issue where a person might be subject to arrest if they happened to be stopped in CA for some other reason? Again, this is all just a hypothetical question since I rarely if ever sell a firearm and in general, I'd probably be with the dealers that just won't sell anything into those weird blue states just because any extra hoops are too many hoops. |
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Posted: 9/16/2014 7:12:52 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
O.K., so if they found out would CA actually bother to try to charge someone? I wouldn't want to be the first. I like having my FFL....and I would lose that as soon as I was indicted. And it they do would they go to the trouble to try to extradite them to CA for an offence that only amounted to not filling out some paperwork? It's California, it's about firearms, I bet they would love to. Or would it only be an issue where a person might be subject to arrest if they happened to be stopped in CA for some other reason? If you have a warrant issued in any state you can be held by your local LE. Again, this is all just a hypothetical question since I rarely if ever sell a firearm and in general, I'd probably be with the dealers that just won't sell anything into those weird blue states just because any extra hoops are too many hoops. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
Say for example I had a C&R FFL03 and I shipped to a FFL01 in CA, following Federal laws... But didn't register with CA DOJ. What, if anything could CA do about it? You would violate California law. I don't know if its a felony or misdemeanor, but I'm sure there is a criminal penalty. If caught the State of California could charge you with violating their state laws.........doesn't matter that you have never been to California. I have no plans to sell any firearms, let alone to anyone in CA... but I see lots of dealers and C&Rs on gun auction sites who refuse to sell to CA... so there has to be some reason for that... Mostly they won't sell to a Cali resident because they are ignorant of how easy it is to ship to a Cali dealer. if they are scared of shipping a prohibited firearm the Cali dealer will be glad to tell them whether its CA legal. Internet myth is that a dealer has to jump through a lot of hoops........which is bullshit. O.K., so if they found out would CA actually bother to try to charge someone? I wouldn't want to be the first. I like having my FFL....and I would lose that as soon as I was indicted. And it they do would they go to the trouble to try to extradite them to CA for an offence that only amounted to not filling out some paperwork? It's California, it's about firearms, I bet they would love to. Or would it only be an issue where a person might be subject to arrest if they happened to be stopped in CA for some other reason? If you have a warrant issued in any state you can be held by your local LE. Again, this is all just a hypothetical question since I rarely if ever sell a firearm and in general, I'd probably be with the dealers that just won't sell anything into those weird blue states just because any extra hoops are too many hoops. |
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Posted: 9/17/2014 1:03:09 PM EDT
[#45]
You think Academy is bad, try Wal-Mart. They have about two other logs other than their bound book, and it takes an eternity and 10 employees to buy a gun there.
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Posted: 9/17/2014 1:34:02 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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O.K., so if they found out would CA actually bother to try to charge someone? I wouldn't want to be the first. I like having my FFL....and I would lose that as soon as I was indicted. And it they do would they go to the trouble to try to extradite them to CA for an offence that only amounted to not filling out some paperwork? It's California, it's about firearms, I bet they would love to. Or would it only be an issue where a person might be subject to arrest if they happened to be stopped in CA for some other reason? If you have a warrant issued in any state you can be held by your local LE. Again, this is all just a hypothetical question since I rarely if ever sell a firearm and in general, I'd probably be with the dealers that just won't sell anything into those weird blue states just because any extra hoops are too many hoops. I totally understand, as I said, strictly hypothetical... and I think you've basically answered the question too... I think the bottom line for a lot of dealers isn't just that they are ignorant of what they need to do to ship to a CA dealer, they don't trust CA DOJ to not try to screw them over if they miss some bit of extra paperwork that isn't necessary when dealing with people in free states. So basically you've made my mind up for me... I've got an FFL03 and if in the unlikely event I am ever selling any firearms (I am not in the business of selling, I buy strictly for collection purposes), I'm going to be with the FFLs who just say "No CA, DC, MA, NY, NJ". It just isn't worth the hassle to find out what paperwork you need to do or risk some anti-gun-zealot at CA DOJ trying to prosecute you for something stupid. |
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