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pjphilp
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Posted: 6/11/2013 6:08:13 PM
[Last Edit: 6/11/2013 6:13:49 PM by pjphilp]
Went to a Bonnie & Clyde Dallas Historical Society brown bag lunch lecture today at the Hall of State in Fair Park today. I was in a hurry to get in on time and I did not notice the following signs posted on various entrances. I only noticed them when I was leaving.



I realize these are not the required 30.06 signs and since I was on my way out, I wasn't worried about being arrested, etc. But I am upset that they even have the signs up.

The Hall of State is owned by the city of Dallas and leased to the Dallas Historical Society. There were no school events going on there at the time of the lecture. So I believe that concealed carry at the location is permitted and that signs need to come down.

I'm looking for help, in the form of advise in follow on posts, for when I contact the Dallas Historical Society and ask that the signs be taken down.

Wasn't there a bill this session in Austin that permitted fining violators of this part of the Texas concealed carry statutes?

Thanks for your assistance in advance.
To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.
- Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas
txinvestigator
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Posted: 6/11/2013 7:08:28 PM
Originally Posted By pjphilp:
Went to a Bonnie & Clyde Dallas Historical Society brown bag lunch lecture today at the Hall of State in Fair Park today. I was in a hurry to get in on time and I did not notice the following signs posted on various entrances. I only noticed them when I was leaving.

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x383/pjphilp/IMG_20130611_132942_812.jpg

I realize these are not the required 30.06 signs and since I was on my way out, I wasn't worried about being arrested, etc. But I am upset that they even have the signs up.

The Hall of State is owned by the city of Dallas and leased to the Dallas Historical Society. There were no school events going on there at the time of the lecture. So I believe that concealed carry at the location is permitted and that signs need to come down.

I'm looking for help, in the form of advise in follow on posts, for when I contact the Dallas Historical Society and ask that the signs be taken down.

Wasn't there a bill this session in Austin that permitted fining violators of this part of the Texas concealed carry statutes?

Thanks for your assistance in advance.


I experienced a similar situation 2 years ago at the Arlington Convention Center with properly formatted 30.06 signs that were not enforceable. I wrote an email to the Chief of Police and copied the City Manager, Convention Center Manager and someone else (cannot recall who). 4 days later I received a response from the City Attorney (who I should have addressed) very nicely written telling me the signs would be removed. A subsequent trip proved they were removed.

Be polite and inquisitive for the best response.

Below is the email I sent;


I am writing in regards to the beautiful new Convention Center your City recently opened. I was fortunate to attend an event there recently, and noticed the many postings of the Texas 30.06 sign at the center. This is a sign that references Texas Penal Code section 30.06. This is a section that makes it unlawful for a CHL holder to carry a handgun on the property of another if the person is given notice that entry with a handgun is forbidden.

The signage meets the requirements of the code; however, section 30.06 of the penal code specifically states, “e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.”

It appears to me that the convention center is owned by the City of Irving, making 30.06, and the signs not applicable to those with a CHL. Penal Code section 1.07 defines the elements of a crime as; “(22) "Element of offense" means:
(A) the forbidden conduct;
(B) the required culpability;
(C) any required result; and
(D) the negation of any exception to the offense.”

To have probable cause to arrest, an officer would need to negate the exception listed in 30.06. My specific question is; does the City of Irving intend to arrest a CHL holder who carries his concealed handgun license and concealed handgun of the proper category inside of the new Convention Center?

I do realize that the center is managed by an independent company, but I do not see how that affects subsection (e) of penal code section 30.06.

I am a Licensed CHL instructor, and I eagerly await your answer. As you are probably aware CHL holders are, as a group, a highly law-abiding people. I wish to be sure to teach my students properly, and advise them on what type of treatment they will receive by the City of Irving in regards to this. I also am a member of several internet message boards, and this is a topic of great interest of the citizens of Irving, Dallas County, and Texas.
KalihiJack
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Posted: 6/11/2013 7:42:42 PM
Looks like they are defaulting to the 30.05 sign instead of 30.06
Originally Posted By PlaneJane:
What you've got there might be a fish or something, but it isn't a human female. Not that it would matter to some here.
pjphilp
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Posted: 6/11/2013 8:07:23 PM
I figured that your's would be the 1st response.

I thought that I'd start with the Dallas Historical Society (DHS) as they manage the facility, and cc the city attorney.

I looked at HB 508 (which I believe passed and only awaits the governor's signature and 9/1 before becoming law) and I also believe it applies as long as the city of Dallas is considered a "political subdivision of the state". It allows for a first offense fine of $1000 and subsequent offense fines of $10000 for wrongly displaying a sign such as the one I saw. And each day the sign is displayed constitutes a desperate offense.

I'll copy you on my complaint, maybe post it here.
To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.
- Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas
pjphilp
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Posted: 6/11/2013 8:09:36 PM
Originally Posted By KalihiJack:
Looks like they are defaulting to the 30.05 sign instead of 30.06


I just thought it was old. Didn't know there was any sign except for 30.06. Gonna look for my Texas Concealed Handgun Laws booklet...
To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.
- Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas
RenegadeX
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Posted: 6/11/2013 8:23:09 PM

Originally Posted By KalihiJack:
Looks like they are defaulting to the 30.05 sign instead of 30.06

That is a pre 30.06 sign that was used. It is over 15 years old.
pjphilp
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Posted: 6/11/2013 8:24:00 PM
OK - understand now. 30.06 is for private property, and 30.05 applies to public buildings.
To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.
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Posted: 6/11/2013 8:28:37 PM

Originally Posted By pjphilp:
OK - understand now. 30.06 is for private property, and 30.05 applies to public buildings.

Not exactly.

When CHL was passed, there was no specific sign. Folks posted 30.05 (like above), ghostbusters, No Berettas, etc. This gave confusion as to what was valid and what was not. So 30.06 was born. 30.06 is the no CHL sign. Along the way, another law was passed making govt buildings not enforceable as to 30.06.

Govt can post 30.05 for no guns but it is not enforceable on CHLs, only non-CHLs.
mm38
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Posted: 6/11/2013 8:50:54 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:

Originally Posted By pjphilp:
OK - understand now. 30.06 is for private property, and 30.05 applies to public buildings.

Not exactly.

When CHL was passed, there was no specific sign. Folks posted 30.05 (like above), ghostbusters, No Berettas, etc. This gave confusion as to what was valid and what was not. So 30.06 was born. 30.06 is the no CHL sign. Along the way, another law was passed making govt buildings not enforceable as to 30.06.

Govt can post 30.05 for no guns but it is not enforceable on CHLs, only non-CHLs.


FYI: Almost all City of Dallas owned facilities use that same 30.05 sign....there is also a white version printed on a piece of white corrugated plastic. Yes, at least 15 years....the signs were old when I started in 1998.


mm
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pjphilp
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Posted: 6/11/2013 9:28:53 PM
The ball is rolling.

A buddy who's a major firearm enthusiast, CHL holder, and a lawyer is going to look at 30.05 And also the new HB 508 that I think passed and is awaiting signature. Then we're going to try a couple of polite, casual email enquiries and if we can't affect change, we're going to give up.
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txinvestigator
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Posted: 6/11/2013 9:41:30 PM
Since the sign is meaningless..........
pjphilp
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Posted: 6/11/2013 10:06:07 PM
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mm38
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Posted: 6/11/2013 10:28:03 PM
I should have mentioned this before.....

One of the City of Dallas Parks and Rec's facilities east of Pleasant Grove for the longest time had a 51% sign posted in the door window of the main entrance.


mm
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72826
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Posted: 6/12/2013 12:02:51 AM
[Last Edit: 6/12/2013 12:03:05 AM by 72826]

Originally Posted By txinvestigator:
Since the sign is meaningless..........

.... and concealed is concealed.....











Shall not be infringed = NO compromise
refidnasb
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Posted: 6/12/2013 12:38:33 AM
Fair Park during the State Fair is no problem at all. I think they even advertise that CHL holders are very welcome and encouraged to attend.

Dallas Historical Society is privately owned and I think in the last several years they have taken over the day to day operations of the Hall of State because the city cannot afford to do so. Used to be you could just wander around in there whenever the mood struck you, for free. Now they charge a buck or two in fees to get in.

When the State Fair is not in session, Fair Park is just like any other city park.
ferretray
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Posted: 6/17/2013 8:17:42 AM
Originally Posted By pjphilp:
I figured that your's would be the 1st response.

I thought that I'd start with the Dallas Historical Society (DHS) as they manage the facility, and cc the city attorney.

I looked at HB 508 (which I believe passed and only awaits the governor's signature and 9/1 before becoming law) and I also believe it applies as long as the city of Dallas is considered a "political subdivision of the state". It allows for a first offense fine of $1000 and subsequent offense fines of $10000 for wrongly displaying a sign such as the one I saw. And each day the sign is displayed constitutes a desperate offense.

I'll copy you on my complaint, maybe post it here.


Did HB 508 indeed pass?
txinvestigator
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Posted: 6/17/2013 10:09:58 AM
Originally Posted By ferretray:
Originally Posted By pjphilp:
I figured that your's would be the 1st response.

I thought that I'd start with the Dallas Historical Society (DHS) as they manage the facility, and cc the city attorney.

I looked at HB 508 (which I believe passed and only awaits the governor's signature and 9/1 before becoming law) and I also believe it applies as long as the city of Dallas is considered a "political subdivision of the state". It allows for a first offense fine of $1000 and subsequent offense fines of $10000 for wrongly displaying a sign such as the one I saw. And each day the sign is displayed constitutes a desperate offense.

I'll copy you on my complaint, maybe post it here.


Did HB 508 indeed pass?


check here
douglasmorris99
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Posted: 6/17/2013 10:29:00 AM
Originally Posted By txinvestigator:
Originally Posted By pjphilp:
Went to a Bonnie & Clyde Dallas Historical Society brown bag lunch lecture today at the Hall of State in Fair Park today. I was in a hurry to get in on time and I did not notice the following signs posted on various entrances. I only noticed them when I was leaving.

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x383/pjphilp/IMG_20130611_132942_812.jpg

I realize these are not the required 30.06 signs and since I was on my way out, I wasn't worried about being arrested, etc. But I am upset that they even have the signs up.

The Hall of State is owned by the city of Dallas and leased to the Dallas Historical Society. There were no school events going on there at the time of the lecture. So I believe that concealed carry at the location is permitted and that signs need to come down.

I'm looking for help, in the form of advise in follow on posts, for when I contact the Dallas Historical Society and ask that the signs be taken down.

Wasn't there a bill this session in Austin that permitted fining violators of this part of the Texas concealed carry statutes?

Thanks for your assistance in advance.


I experienced a similar situation 2 years ago at the Arlington Convention Center with properly formatted 30.06 signs that were not enforceable. I wrote an email to the Chief of Police and copied the City Manager, Convention Center Manager and someone else (cannot recall who). 4 days later I received a response from the City Attorney (who I should have addressed) very nicely written telling me the signs would be removed. A subsequent trip proved they were removed.

Be polite and inquisitive for the best response.

Below is the email I sent;


I am writing in regards to the beautiful new Convention Center your City recently opened. I was fortunate to attend an event there recently, and noticed the many postings of the Texas 30.06 sign at the center. This is a sign that references Texas Penal Code section 30.06. This is a section that makes it unlawful for a CHL holder to carry a handgun on the property of another if the person is given notice that entry with a handgun is forbidden.

The signage meets the requirements of the code; however, section 30.06 of the penal code specifically states, “e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.”

It appears to me that the convention center is owned by the City of Irving, making 30.06, and the signs not applicable to those with a CHL. Penal Code section 1.07 defines the elements of a crime as; “(22) "Element of offense" means:
(A) the forbidden conduct;
(B) the required culpability;
(C) any required result; and
(D) the negation of any exception to the offense.”

To have probable cause to arrest, an officer would need to negate the exception listed in 30.06. My specific question is; does the City of Irving intend to arrest a CHL holder who carries his concealed handgun license and concealed handgun of the proper category inside of the new Convention Center?

I do realize that the center is managed by an independent company, but I do not see how that affects subsection (e) of penal code section 30.06.

I am a Licensed CHL instructor, and I eagerly await your answer. As you are probably aware CHL holders are, as a group, a highly law-abiding people. I wish to be sure to teach my students properly, and advise them on what type of treatment they will receive by the City of Irving in regards to this. I also am a member of several internet message boards, and this is a topic of great interest of the citizens of Irving, Dallas County, and Texas.


I went to the recent prepper convention at the Arlington center,,I asked to confirm if carry was legal as it was NOT posted but had heard it had been.
THE GENERAL MANAGER told me the signs were temporarily taken down to be redone and that the building was 30.06 posted Now I'm pissed..
SOCIALISM COMMUNISM AND FACISM ONLY WORK WHEN BOOT HEEL OF A POLITICAL CLASS IS ON THE NECK OF THE WORKING CLASS, PICKING POCKETS FOR THE LEISURE CLASS
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douglasmorris99
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Posted: 6/17/2013 10:30:03 AM
Originally Posted By pjphilp:
I figured that your's would be the 1st response.

I thought that I'd start with the Dallas Historical Society (DHS) as they manage the facility, and cc the city attorney.

I looked at HB 508 (which I believe passed and only awaits the governor's signature and 9/1 before becoming law) and I also believe it applies as long as the city of Dallas is considered a "political subdivision of the state". It allows for a first offense fine of $1000 and subsequent offense fines of $10000 for wrongly displaying a sign such as the one I saw. And each day the sign is displayed constitutes a desperate offense.

I'll copy you on my complaint, maybe post it here.


IF the DHS is 'renting" the building, do the city/county/state rules apply as they're a free standing entity not related to government beyond common interest?
SOCIALISM COMMUNISM AND FACISM ONLY WORK WHEN BOOT HEEL OF A POLITICAL CLASS IS ON THE NECK OF THE WORKING CLASS, PICKING POCKETS FOR THE LEISURE CLASS
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Posted: 6/17/2013 10:57:34 AM
I don't think the DHS leases the building. On the DHS website, in the section about the Hall of State, it states that the building is owned by the city of Dallas and managed for them by DHS.

As an aside - the DHS is a cool organization, and I recommend becoming a member, especially if you live in Dallas.
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Posted: 6/17/2013 8:37:07 PM
Originally Posted By txinvestigator:
Originally Posted By ferretray:
Originally Posted By pjphilp:
I figured that your's would be the 1st response.

I thought that I'd start with the Dallas Historical Society (DHS) as they manage the facility, and cc the city attorney.

I looked at HB 508 (which I believe passed and only awaits the governor's signature and 9/1 before becoming law) and I also believe it applies as long as the city of Dallas is considered a "political subdivision of the state". It allows for a first offense fine of $1000 and subsequent offense fines of $10000 for wrongly displaying a sign such as the one I saw. And each day the sign is displayed constitutes a desperate offense.

I'll copy you on my complaint, maybe post it here.


Did HB 508 indeed pass?


check here


The search function on that site is a clusterfuck.
txinvestigator
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Posted: 6/17/2013 11:04:05 PM
[Last Edit: 6/17/2013 11:05:45 PM by txinvestigator]
Originally Posted By ferretray:
Originally Posted By txinvestigator:
Originally Posted By ferretray:
Originally Posted By pjphilp:
I figured that your's would be the 1st response.

I thought that I'd start with the Dallas Historical Society (DHS) as they manage the facility, and cc the city attorney.

I looked at HB 508 (which I believe passed and only awaits the governor's signature and 9/1 before becoming law) and I also believe it applies as long as the city of Dallas is considered a "political subdivision of the state". It allows for a first offense fine of $1000 and subsequent offense fines of $10000 for wrongly displaying a sign such as the one I saw. And each day the sign is displayed constitutes a desperate offense.

I'll copy you on my complaint, maybe post it here.


Did HB 508 indeed pass?


check here


The search function on that site is a clusterfuck.


Select the 83R session, click the box for bill number, enter hb508.

I just did it, and it seems easy.
ferretray
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Posted: 6/18/2013 11:54:46 AM
Originally Posted By txinvestigator:
Originally Posted By ferretray:
Originally Posted By txinvestigator:
Originally Posted By ferretray:
Originally Posted By pjphilp:
I figured that your's would be the 1st response.

I thought that I'd start with the Dallas Historical Society (DHS) as they manage the facility, and cc the city attorney.

I looked at HB 508 (which I believe passed and only awaits the governor's signature and 9/1 before becoming law) and I also believe it applies as long as the city of Dallas is considered a "political subdivision of the state". It allows for a first offense fine of $1000 and subsequent offense fines of $10000 for wrongly displaying a sign such as the one I saw. And each day the sign is displayed constitutes a desperate offense.

I'll copy you on my complaint, maybe post it here.


Did HB 508 indeed pass?


check here


The search function on that site is a clusterfuck.


Select the 83R session, click the box for bill number, enter hb508.

I just did it, and it seems easy.


Thanks.