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Posted: 9/10/2009 10:48:44 AM EDT
**Please keep this discussion relevant to the rifle in question, it's design and the technical and legal aspects.



Failure to do so will result in posts being removed and/or time outs for those responsible for derailing the topic**
Streetfighter

Fuck that idea everyone, please feel free to slag away

Southern Gun Company (SGC) are by many, renowned as the finest custom AR builder in the UK, and their latest offering doesn’t disappoint! Here I present to you the 9mm Lever Release Rifle (nicknamed the “Unicorn” due to the seemingly endless wait for it to be produced, and the belief that its existence was a myth). It’s been a long time coming, but this is the latest innovation in firearm technology, which has been designed to comply with the 1988 Firearms Amendment Act (Self Loading Rifle ban), in a similar way Long Barrelled Revolver’s and Long Barrelled Pistol’s do to the 1997 act. These were initially disliked by the police, but soon became excepted, and are a common sight down the local club and also at major Gallery competitions.. This new rifle, I predict will end the same way.
Laid on the bench, the Lever Release looks like a pretty standard AR-15, with a modified 32rd Uzi magazine shoved in. For only £1150, you get a 13.25”, 1 in 16 twist barrel, 9mmx19 chambered AR, with a low profile upper receiver (with integral picatinny rail), charge bar cocking, A2 flash hider, DPMS free float hand guard, Command Arms collapsible stock, one magazine (spares are ~£45 as they have to be machined to fit) and an A2 pistol grip. However the gun starts to get exciting when you look at action, there's not a locking lug in sight, and an unusual lever on the left hand side where the safety catch should be!
This lever is the key to how the action works. This lever is what stops the rifle being a semi-auto, and hence illegal. The firing sequence is as follows; Use the standard AR T handle charge bar to pull the bolt back (it will automatically lock back), insert a loaded magazine, push down the sprung lever with your thumb (this releases the bolt, which then flies forward, chambering the first round), turn the safety catch to fire as necessary, sight the rifle on the target, and pull the trigger. The round then fires, cycling the bolt back, unloading the chamber, ejecting the empty case, and automatically locks back. To fire the next round push the lever down, releasing the bolt and then pull the trigger again, hence the name, Lever Release Action.
After looking forward to this rifle for countless months, it brought a smile to my face when I shot it for the first time at my local club. The rapid string of gunfire, and clattering of empty brass soon attracted a crowd, interested to see the new rifle. It was simply a dream to shoot! The action unloaded extremely quickly and reliably, and never failed to lock open. The recoil was moderate, as expected, and the whole thing seemed natural to shoot. As you grip the rifle with your finger on the trigger, your thumb sits naturally on the lever, ready to release the bolt. Thus it takes very little co-ordination to achieve a high cyclic rate. Whether you want to use it as a Gallery / Practical Rifle in speed shoots, or shoot precision groups down the range, this rifle is perfect for both.
I tested the rifle with Nato Spec IMI, and Wolf ammo. The IMI cycled 100% reliably for the 100rds I fired, throwing the fired cases out with a lot of force. The steel cases of the wolf decreased the reliability slightly, causing the odd empty case to jam the action, but nothing worth worrying about. The trigger pull is slightly on the heavy side, breaking at about 8lb. With a red dot mounted on the top, both ammunitions easily shot a 1” group at 25m. SGC are renowned for their tight machining tolerances, and for manufacturing precision, accurate rifles, so I expect that this group size would drastically decrease with a scope fitted, however I was unable to test this.
There have been concerns about the legality of this design, however most of these are due to lack of understanding of the mechanism, or false information. I can assure you that this rifle falls 100% within Section 1 of the Firearms Acts. It is a concept, designed and manufactured in the UK, to make the most of what we can still own. Its nice to see this country is still at the cutting edge of firearms manufacturing once again, despite our draconian Gun Laws! It has been shown to Warwickshire Police Firearms Licensing Manager, who is happy with it's legality. SGC have worked extensively to make sure this is the case. Although the lower receiver looks standard, it is a completely new build, designed from scratch. The release lever operates in a very similar way to a semi-auto sear on a trigger – you push the lever down once, it releases the bolt, and then the mechanism springs back up off the lever, so you cannot hold it down to make the rifle go semi auto. You need to release the lever, to reset the sear. Although customers are warned not to try this, as holding the lever down will void the warranty, and damage the mechanism, costing over £400 for a new one.
To ensure the rifle is not easily convertible to section 5, it will not work with a standard AR-15 lower receiver. The trigger mechanism, hammer, and all other internal parts are all custom built for the purpose, and not interchangeable. Therefore you cannot change the lower receiver, or any other parts to convert the rifle to semi auto. The only downside from this is that you cannot fit an aftermarket trigger. In fact you are discouraged from stripping the lower receiver at all, as this will also void the warranty, and after seeing all the tightly tensioned springs inside, I don't think I'd want to try! A slightly odd feature due to the redesigned lower parts is that on the safety catch, fire is still 'up' but safe is pointing back, traditionally where 'auto' would be! Of course AR-15 furniture such as sights, stocks, forends, grips, etc. Fit perfectly on the rifle , as it is still a "Mechano set AR" at heart.
This rifle is a must for any black gun fan, as it is fun, new concept, with the aesthetics and ergonomics of any AR. The price is very good value considering the amount of work that's gone into it, and best of all it brings a smile to your face when shooting!
ETA - If you would like one of these rifles, order one fast, as the first batch is all pre sold, and the next batch will soon be reserved. You require a variation for "1x 9mm rifle".
Pics:














 
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 11:14:54 AM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 11:52:57 AM EDT
[#2]
This has already been posted. Did you copy it?
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 12:03:45 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 9:56:55 PM EDT
[#4]
Since the first proto-types, the bolt has been lightened to prevent short strokes.

Bob, as with most firearms manufacturers, says not to use homeloaded ammunition in the rifle, so this shouldn't happen.

In my opinion, the round would have to be dangerously low pressure to short stroke the action, as it is traveling soo fast with normal factory ammunition, so would you really want to pull the trigger again if that happened?
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 11:36:29 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Since the first proto-types, the bolt has been lightened to prevent short strokes.

Bob, as with most firearms manufacturers, says not to use homeloaded ammunition in the rifle, so this shouldn't happen.

In my opinion, the round would have to be dangerously low pressure to short stroke the action, as it is traveling soo fast with normal factory ammunition, so would you really want to pull the trigger again if that happened?


.....but does that mean it could.........
Link Posted: 9/11/2009 12:13:45 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Since the first proto-types, the bolt has been lightened to prevent short strokes.

Bob, as with most firearms manufacturers, says not to use homeloaded ammunition in the rifle, so this shouldn't happen.

In my opinion, the round would have to be dangerously low pressure to short stroke the action, as it is traveling soo fast with normal factory ammunition, so would you really want to pull the trigger again if that happened?


That answers one of my questions, thanks.

Another couple of questions:

It appears from the photos that the rotating cam bolt is no longer a part of the system, presumably to enable easier ejection and that ejection is caused by blowback alone (i.e. no gas system) Is this right?



Link Posted: 9/11/2009 12:54:09 AM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 9/11/2009 1:42:08 AM EDT
[#8]
Highly recommended that you wear shooting glasses with it as well, else you might get nasty stuff in your eyes.  Why is there a channel for a cocking lever on the LHS if it does not require one?
Link Posted: 9/11/2009 4:17:05 AM EDT
[#9]
I had a question about the lower and a concern.  If you can't take it apart how can you properly clean it,  with it being a blowback action I'd expect it to get a little dirtier than the average and need it once in a while?

The concern I have is the statement that holding the release lever down whilst firing WILL damage the rifle causing a repair bill for a third of the cost of the rifle!  Is this not something that could be done accidentally whilst trying to shoot it quickly, and it also seems like something someone who hadn't shot one before might try so it'd put me off letting other people have a go...

Link Posted: 9/11/2009 4:29:21 AM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 9/11/2009 4:44:39 AM EDT
[#11]
Just seems a bit odd that something which could probably be done quite easily (not sure as I obviously haven't shot one) would severely damage the rifle?

As for cleaning, that's what you do when your gun stops working, or what you do just before Dillon have to send you the replacement bits in my case

Andy
Link Posted: 9/11/2009 6:33:22 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
I can only assume that there is a disconnector setup whereas the trigger group will not set until the carrier has cycled and pushed it down.
As for cleaning, please explain this cleaning to me


....Off topic....ban him....  

....and to keep it on track, is there an answer to the squib load question.? Just because someone says "don't shoot home loads" don't mean they won't. Who's responsible/liable if this thing 'auto loads'..........
Link Posted: 9/11/2009 6:43:38 AM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 9/11/2009 6:46:03 AM EDT
[#14]



Quoted:



Quoted:

I can only assume that there is a disconnector setup whereas the trigger group will not set until the carrier has cycled and pushed it down.

As for cleaning, please explain this cleaning to me




....Off topic....ban him....
 




....and to keep it on track, is there an answer to the squib load question.? Just because someone says "don't shoot home loads" don't mean they won't. Who's responsible/liable if this thing 'auto loads'..........


I've seen a number of .22's fire bursts when dirty - it's just 'one of those things'. Nobody seems to worry about it...





 
Link Posted: 9/11/2009 2:21:04 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Since the first proto-types, the bolt has been lightened to prevent short strokes.

Bob, as with most firearms manufacturers, says not to use homeloaded ammunition in the rifle, so this shouldn't happen.

In my opinion, the round would have to be dangerously low pressure to short stroke the action, as it is traveling soo fast with normal factory ammunition, so would you really want to pull the trigger again if that happened?


That answers one of my questions, thanks.

Another couple of questions:

It appears from the photos that the rotating cam bolt is no longer a part of the system, presumably to enable easier ejection and that ejection is caused by blowback alone (i.e. no gas system) Is this right?





Yep - It's a straight blowback action. The only thing holding the bolt forward is the recoil/return spring in the stock. And no gas parts
Link Posted: 9/11/2009 2:25:55 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Highly recommended that you wear shooting glasses with it as well, else you might get nasty stuff in your eyes.  Why is there a channel for a cocking lever on the LHS if it does not require one?


+1  You should always wear safety glasses when shooting everything.

It's his standard speedmaster upper receiver, so it has the ability to take a left hand cocking lever if required (although it's not required on these).

These are high quality upper receivers, and by using them it helped keep development costs down. Yes this does mean that the pins will line up, and fit together with a standard lower receiver, but due to differences in the position, and size of the hammer, this would just result in a rifle that doesn't go bang, and a lot of smashed up trigger parts.

Link Posted: 9/11/2009 2:30:15 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
I had a question about the lower and a concern.  If you can't take it apart how can you properly clean it,  with it being a blowback action I'd expect it to get a little dirtier than the average and need it once in a while?

The concern I have is the statement that holding the release lever down whilst firing WILL damage the rifle causing a repair bill for a third of the cost of the rifle!  Is this not something that could be done accidentally whilst trying to shoot it quickly, and it also seems like something someone who hadn't shot one before might try so it'd put me off letting other people have a go...



Yes the action does get dirty, but you can clean it easy enough by using solvents, without dissassembly.

Unfortunately the holding the lever down damage cannot be avoided, and is a side effect of the hold open mechanism. The bolt travels back with a lot of force, so if held down, the bolt will grind against the hold open mechanism, and chip against the sear. It's something that has to be accepted. I do not advise trying, but the odd mistake shouldn't do much harm, just don't do it all the time.
Link Posted: 9/11/2009 2:33:57 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
I can only assume that there is a disconnector setup whereas the trigger group will not set until the carrier has cycled and pushed it down.
As for cleaning, please explain this cleaning to me


....Off topic....ban him....  

....and to keep it on track, is there an answer to the squib load question.? Just because someone says "don't shoot home loads" don't mean they won't. Who's responsible/liable if this thing 'auto loads'..........

I've seen a number of .22's fire bursts when dirty - it's just 'one of those things'. Nobody seems to worry about it...

 


Exactly - it's something that can unintentionally happen to many rifles we already own... The perfect amount of dirt on a 10/22 can result in undesirable effects....

If it happens on this rifle, it will be an exceptionally rare occurrence, that shouldn't be worried about.

Link Posted: 9/11/2009 11:18:57 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I had a question about the lower and a concern.  If you can't take it apart how can you properly clean it,  with it being a blowback action I'd expect it to get a little dirtier than the average and need it once in a while?

The concern I have is the statement that holding the release lever down whilst firing WILL damage the rifle causing a repair bill for a third of the cost of the rifle!  Is this not something that could be done accidentally whilst trying to shoot it quickly, and it also seems like something someone who hadn't shot one before might try so it'd put me off letting other people have a go...



Yes the action does get dirty, but you can clean it easy enough by using solvents, without dissassembly.

Unfortunately the holding the lever down damage cannot be avoided, and is a side effect of the hold open mechanism. The bolt travels back with a lot of force, so if held down, the bolt will grind against the hold open mechanism, and chip against the sear. It's something that has to be accepted. I do not advise trying, but the odd mistake shouldn't do much harm, just don't do it all the time.


Is the lever under spring tension to return it to it's pre-prelease position or does the movement in the trigger group reset it? Presumably you can rest your thumb lightly on it allowing it to reset and that wouldn't cause a problem?

Link Posted: 9/12/2009 1:38:28 AM EDT
[#20]
Yes the lever is sprung, and will return to the up position, and so you can rest your thumb on it, without applying downward pressure.

P.s. Thanks for all the positive messages/replies. Heading out to Czech for a week now, for the shotgun match. So might not get on here for while!
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 1:12:22 AM EDT
[#21]
Are other trigger options offered?  I'm still not sure whether I want one or not. Will he take orders different specs?
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 12:52:00 PM EDT
[#22]
Good question as I'd prefer mine with M4 style handguards and an A frame foresight, can Bob do this or do we have to send them to an Irish gunplumber ?
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 1:01:30 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Good question as I'd prefer mine with M4 style handguards and an A frame foresight, can Bob do this or do we have to send them to an Irish gunplumber ?


Initial reports suggest that bolt on "external" accessories are more than possible. After market triggers may not be an option.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 2:28:48 PM EDT
[#24]
With this now being an accepted type of action, is there any reason why it could not be used for .223, Grendal etc?

Link Posted: 9/14/2009 2:33:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 3:05:21 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
With this now being an accepted type of action, is there any reason why it could not be used for .223, Grendal etc?



That's the bit I'm interested in, .223 that is, maybe even 7.62mm,. I would imagine it will depend how it's received. Essentially as far as I can see it merely interrupts the semi-auto cycle and relies on it's totally re-worked trigger & 'lever release' group to maintain it's integrity as not readily convertible. I don't see that the whether the cyling is gas blow-back or gas impingement has any relevance.

Link Posted: 9/15/2009 1:59:29 AM EDT
[#27]
It wouldn't be that hard to do in ar10 or any of the other ar15 calibers, It wouldn't be that hard to make it so you can actually use "Other Triggers"

the problem is..... we'd all reload, and it only takes an accidental not enough powder in one of our cartridges to cause massive ramifications....

Tyga, has already said the bolt on the 9mm has had to be lightened somewhat to avoid any chance of this happening,

so it'll be interesting to see what it does to the end of the buffer tube

Link Posted: 9/15/2009 7:28:11 AM EDT
[#28]
I'm not sure I would want to fire an 5.56mm AR with an unlocked bolt not sure what would happen but it does lock for a reason!!!!
So it would have to be gas operated and and then lock back, I think that would be a leap too far.
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 10:53:24 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
I'm not sure I would want to fire an 5.56mm AR with an unlocked bolt not sure what would happen but it does lock for a reason!!!!
So it would have to be gas operated and and then lock back, I think that would be a leap too far.


I agree with the mechanics but I don't see a difference in the principle, ie all you are doing is interrupting the semi-auto-cycle . Calibre was not the issue. High cyclic rates of fire were the issue, and still are.This is where we start to wander into the ughknown..
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 12:48:19 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm not sure I would want to fire an 5.56mm AR with an unlocked bolt not sure what would happen but it does lock for a reason!!!!
So it would have to be gas operated and and then lock back, I think that would be a leap too far.


I agree with the mechanics but I don't see a difference in the principle, ie all you are doing is interrupting the semi-auto-cycle . Calibre was not the issue. High cyclic rates of fire were the issue, and still are.This is where we start to wander into the ughknown..


That's what I was thinking, the rifle still has to be actioned manually, has no semi-auto capability, and cannot be easily modified. I haven't seen nothing in the legislation that prohibits blowback/recoil/gas operated systems

Interesting concept  - time will tell.

Link Posted: 9/15/2009 1:29:11 PM EDT
[#31]
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 2:13:30 PM EDT
[#32]
I do hope thats not the case. I would love one in .300 whisper or even .223

Is the action patented ? Is it possible to patent such an action ?

Can any manufacturer use it ?
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 2:14:55 PM EDT
[#33]
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 2:19:21 PM EDT
[#34]
Its ok, just do the rifle - I can get the scope elsewhere.



I really should not use the computer when drinking to excess.
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 11:58:33 PM EDT
[#35]
I'm sure your expert design team could come up with something Mark.....

it really isn't that hard, its just an open bolt smg sear in the back of a closed bolt rifle!
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 10:07:48 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
It wouldn't be that hard to do in ar10 or any of the other ar15 calibers, It wouldn't be that hard to make it so you can actually use "Other Triggers"

the problem is..... we'd all reload, and it only takes an accidental not enough powder in one of our cartridges to cause massive ramifications....

Tyga, has already said the bolt on the 9mm has had to be lightened somewhat to avoid any chance of this happening,

so it'll be interesting to see what it does to the end of the buffer tube



..or put a calibrated block in the end of the buffer tube to stop it being able to travel quite far enough.....


It'd be interesting to see how these potential problems have been over come to stop them being 'readilly convertible', I'd like to see the action close up.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 8:32:45 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
..or put a calibrated block in the end of the buffer tube to stop it being able to travel quite far enough.....




     


Link Posted: 9/16/2009 11:47:14 PM EDT
[#38]
It would be nice in .223 with an op rod and adjustable gas block.
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 3:28:38 AM EDT
[#39]
At least this thread hasn't been subject to 'reporting restrictions' unlike some other boards............
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 3:42:35 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
At least this thread hasn't been subject to 'reporting restrictions' unlike some other boards............


Tell us more.
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 3:47:24 AM EDT
[#41]
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 3:52:48 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
At least this thread hasn't been subject to 'reporting restrictions' unlike some other boards............


Tell us more.


Baz has done a hatchet job on Tyga's review.
Apparently there were some "controversial" remarks in there


Yep, but to be fair they were coming across as anti shooting. I agree with Baz some people really should think before posting.

Andy.
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 3:57:27 AM EDT
[#43]
Hatchet job on the replies or the review?

Some of the replies
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 3:58:19 AM EDT
[#44]
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 4:00:48 AM EDT
[#45]
Did you read the one about different types of current rifles available which could be used in a Hungerford scenario?

Andy.
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 4:04:46 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
At least this thread hasn't been subject to 'reporting restrictions' unlike some other boards............


Tell us more.


Baz has done a hatchet job on Tyga's review.
Apparently there were some "controversial" remarks in there


Yep, but to be fair they were coming across as anti shooting. I agree with Baz some people really should think before posting.

Andy.


They were merely trying to ascertain whether an investment of over £1000 in a rifle was going to be at a risk of not being able to keep the rifle, not really anti-shooting, just common sense
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 4:06:11 AM EDT
[#47]
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 4:06:27 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Did you read the one about different types of current rifles available which could be used in a Hungerford scenario?

Andy.


No. Not really the same though is it ?

Link Posted: 9/23/2009 4:06:56 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
At least this thread hasn't been subject to 'reporting restrictions' unlike some other boards............


Tell us more.


Baz has done a hatchet job on Tyga's review.
Apparently there were some "controversial" remarks in there


Yep, but to be fair they were coming across as anti shooting. I agree with Baz some people really should think before posting.



See my post above.

Andy.

Andy.


They were merely trying to ascertain whether an investment of over £1000 in a rifle was going to be at a risk of not being able to keep the rifle, not really anti-shooting, just common sense


Link Posted: 9/23/2009 4:07:47 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Hatchet job on the replies or the review?

Some of the replies


Scope eye would be banned instantly
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