That's cool....  I might be able to get my hands on an SRM 1216 shotgun by then .  It's not a box fed shotgun.  

I've got 20 bucks for anybody who uses a side by side or over under and places in the top 10.

how about a single shot break?

I would do it just for fun.

I shot my communist P64 with six round mags last time just for fun and came within ten seconds of the high score (for first time runs) IIRC.

blah blah blah

Im going to start practicing with my 20 gauge youth model break action.  I might need to make a shell carrier or something for it.

What happen to trying to run this a little more serious? If we want to actually put on a competition and try and run multiple stages/multiple runs we want people with the correct gear and want to do their best.


Unless this is just your plan to prevent yourself from being dead last?

Joel I will run faster with a 20 break than you will fully suited up.  I would definitely want it to be my second run or what ever.

stop messing around guys.

I'm sure you would... Until you cut your thumb slamming that break action closed


I'm up for having fun, just after the match is over. I want people that want to push themselves and compete to beat my top score it's going to take a good amount of time and money to get it all set up, and if we are going to just jerk off, I'll save my money and join in on a dirt shoot.

Will we be running through a wet muddy spillway again???

nope.  i had it tiled this summer.  we might get lucky and it'll still be frozen by then too...  lol.

Joel and Bob Rob, let me know if you guys need help setting up or planning anything. I'm capable! Let me know!

I'll try to post a bit more details and thoughts this evening.

Whoever said we weren't being serious?

When I shot my P64 I was genuinely trying to go fast.  I practiced speed reloads with that gun to prepare, which I had never really done before.  It has a goofy magazine release and no external slide release, so there was a learning curve.  I carry that gun from time to time (quite reliable and accurate) so why shouldn't I run it against the clock?  Who cares that it was made in 1969?  It's fun!

I've shot my essentially stock G21 in USPSA limited 10 against ridiculously modified race guns.  I also carry that gun from time to time and its full time job is nightstand duty.  Why shouldn't I run it against the clock?  It's fun!

The post was directed at me. it was not to dissuade anyone from participating, but to let people know this go around will be more weighted to competition, not so much introducing people to multi-gun. With that we will be changing setup and people will be making multiple runs ( we might have to look at capping the number of shooters at the event, maybe) This doesn't mean we can't have a good time, but it will require people to jump up to help with moving steel and helping to safely run the range.

Secondly, If you have an idea about how to do this post up, now is the time to ID issues or opportunities and give ourselves time to better implement.

That's nice

If you were paying good money to go shoot a 3gun match and were trying to not just beat a clock but your competition also, you would be running the proper gear. G21 fits that, not a p64.

You keep posting about your high speed shell carriers, and practicing reloads... But now you're trying to argue with me about gear choice?

This is going to take time and money, if people want to be more serious and approach this like an actual event, than I'm glad to pay for shit... But if it's another fun goof off day I'll save the cash and throw together stages with whatever scrap wood I've got laying around.

We don't see many 3gun matches around here, and I think we've got a chance to put on a pretty good match if everyone steps up.

I've only briefly discussed any of this with BobRob, I'm not sure if we're on the same page, but I'd like to run this like an actual match and then put on another small shoot at the next get together for a more open house deal.


I'd type more, but long winded posts are too much effort for an iPad.

You guys post up what it is you want to do and say it loud and proud from the start.  I would be really wary of driving as far as I have to if it is planned around the concept it was last time.  Set the date and put it in stone.  Then set the time if someone isn't there at that time they didn't get the walk through for the stage they don't shoot.  Shoot 3 stages maybe only 2 have them be relatively short and sweet and set a rotation or order.  

Force movement within the segments and have targets that must be engaged from shooting boxes so that you can force magazine reloads when you want them as well as limit the gaming of the stage as best as possible.  Do not make stage 1 all pistol stage 2 all rifle and stage 3 all shot gun make them one gun heavy but not solo.  So each stage may have some pistol work but stage 2 has over 30 rounds while the other two stages have 30 total between them.  

Ensure that the shot gun stage is offset from the other two so that reset operations can be done while the shooter is engaging pistol and rifle targets and the next shooter can be in place to start right after the last shooter finishes.  After a shooter finishes s/he drops gear at score keepers area and falls in for the reset crew.  The shooter will help reset the person who followed them into the shoot and then exit.  RSO jobs can be figured out but course should be pretty self regulated with RSO only in charge of running a timer and keeping shooter safe.  

My understanding is all targetry except for shot gun will be steel.  Have it so that nothing with the steel needs reset unless there is an error.  If you decide to have shoot no shoot have the no shoot be steel as well with white spray paint that can be easily touched up.  These are preferably for the closer targets for further ones simply have someone watching with spotting scope to call hit/miss or noshoot penalty.  

Run the course.  make it fun and make it so the last stage can be left up after all shooters have done it so that you can open it up for the people watching to get a chance to maybe play along a bit.  I didn't shoot my first 3 gun tourney I went to.  I watch it was great to watch I learned a ton.  The last time was interesting to see lots of people getting a first look at the type of course of fire but you can't play barney hands holding session every time.  If you want to build up shooting sports like this in the state we need to be a bit more serious about it.  

I think honestly you should pre register sometime soon.  If you want to set up just one course of fire and have people run that over and over it is a waste of a trip and lots of money for me.  I can do that at home.  People travel for shooting sports to see cool course set ups and well run tournaments.  It wasn't a big deal last time because it was a home town get together but that novelty is only enjoyable for folks who are very new to it and not for folks who are doing an 8 hour round trip to interact with other shooters in state.

Make the total number something that is reasonable.  Set up a timeline for stages as for how long they should take to complete and how long it will take to get through it.  Up the amount charged for the entire shoot which can then include a prize at the end.  Maybe the prize is a piece of shooting gear maybe it is cerakote from cca or steel from accurate.  cca and accurate will be there anyway if we are bringing in business for those companies as well as a decent stream of funds for shooter dues it would be easy to pay for a partial coating or a small target.  More importantly winning something forces people to work hard and you don't get as many idiots playing around with a 6 shot pistol that has no place on the field.  

Last thing.  If you don't have gear thats no big deal.  But you don't figure out that you don't have gear as you are walking up to the stage with out a shot gun in hand.  Folks who don't have a gun that is required need to get with someone else before go time and they need to be show how to properly function the gun before any shooter begins competing.  The very last thing anyone needs is someone who has no idea how to operate a gun sweeping peoples faces with a loaded shot gun trying to figure out how to do a forced slug change out.  

Off my soap box now.  Im interested to see how this goes.

Man, this thread is going to be 20+ pages before we get to May...

I'm all for a sign up prior to the day of the event, entry fee (if people want),  a requirement that you a there for the safety brief & course run through, and helping out with RSO duties.  I will donate some prizes for the winner (don't get too excited) like I stated previously.  

I don't care how the course is set-up... I will adapt to whatever.  Just don't make it so challenging that people can't remember where to move next and don't make it so I'm carrying more rounds than an Infantry Marine .

I've been down for this since the thread started. I've never shot 3 gun before, so I'm a complete newb to it. Never shot any formal contest actually.

Holy shit balls I was tempted to keep scrolling, but I've posted a few walls of text in my time so I read it all anyway.

My input:

• Date/time/walk-throughs - yes.  We did too many walk-throughs last time.  We should schedule them or something keeping in mind not everyone can be there at 9AM and they might be up top hammering on shit in septic's shop.  At the rally we did groups of 10.  I'm thinking why not do a walk-through every hour?


• Movement - the way we do this at my USPSA club is lots and lots of 55 gal plastic barrels from a car wash.  We have enough to build pretty much anything our hearts desire.  Plenty of ways to set up so that you can only see certain targets from certain angles, and you might have five or more shooting positions that aren't arbitrarily defined by boxes on the ground.  I'm not sure this is feasable...  Brownells' barrier setup is pretty trick and probably cheap to build, but you'd need a few guys with a few tools to make a day of getting some built.  Everything is modular and can be thrown together with zip ties and a hammer in short order.  The hardest part was pounding stakes into the gravel, which isn't a problem at septic's


• Shotgun targets - the USPSA multigun rules for steel shotgun targets shot with birdshot and buckshot are the same as those for handgun targets, 23 foot minimum distance.  Slugs are the same as rifle, 147 feet minimum (49 yards.)  Close-up slug targets are usually cardboard for this reason.  At the rally we did all steel targets to include shotgun. ETA: rally video (warning: Glock malfunction)


• Serious vs. play - I think we should tend more to the play side.  There ARE clubs in Iowa that host 3-gun matches, legitimate clubs that use either the USPSA or IDPA multigun rulebooks at that.   We're not there yet and you should be wary of scaring a bunch of people off.


• Registration - only one legit club that I know of in Iowa that even offers pre-registration.  Most of the rest are pretty informal, you show up and shoot or you don't.   I mean shit what's next, requiring IDPA membership?


• No gear, no guns, etc - I think we had a lot of folks last time who were shooting against the clock for the first time in their lives.  I like that.  The first time I did it was at a somewhat large USPSA match and I made a fool of myself on a couple of the stages.  A more relaxed atmosphere is more forgiving.

These ideas aren't bad but what you laid out seems like more of a three year plan than a second ever match plan.  Go slow and you'll attract a following and repeat shooters.  We could even become an official IDPA or USPSA club somewhere down the road.

You're missing the point, the idea for me is to maximize a weapon system, whether that be my AR or my $169 communist surplus pocket pistol.  Even my M2 isn't setup for three gun, it's setup like a home defense gun.  My AR's aren't setup for competition, they're setup for defensive purposes.  My pistols aren't setup for competition, they're setup for carry.

Every experienced competitor I've talked to has warned me away from trying to win at all costs vs. having fun and trying to best yourself.  I'm thinking of getting a gun to shoot the USPSA revolver division with, not because I'm going to beat everyone but because it will be fun and I can learn how to shoot and reload a revolver quickly.

And as for "good money," most local matches are in the $10 range, which covers targets, pasters, maintenance etc.  The prize is bragging rights.  Most people don't shoot at national level matches and win swag.

Y'all need to ratchet it back and think about average Joe.  If you want to pay good money and beat people and win shit, there's ample opportunity to do so but you better get sponsored cause it's not a well-paying job...  I think some of you maybe watch too much 3GN on TV.

i'm still donating the use of a slung and suppressed SBR AR15 in 556/223.  i have a few belt, holster, and new G34 in 9mm ready to roll.  i have an 870 ready to rock in 12ga with shell carrier, etc.  all are available at NO COST to anyone choosing to use them with one prerequisite.  YOU bring your own ammo for them, and not junk ammo either.  

also nick, the idea of a person running and gunning with unfamiliar weapons and your point about a quick proficiency check/familiarization is a good one.  i'm sure we can find a volunteer for that, or i can do it if nobody else wants to.  i was hoping to take pics and video, but i'll help fill in where we need it that day...

agreed.  that was the intent all along.  when we held the cca open house, the 3gun component was a bit more of a familiarization than a comp.  it was my understanding all along this even was to be considered a match scenario.  we'll hold more appreciation days, familiarizations, etc. but let's stick to keeping not only the shooting quick moving, but the overall flow brisk.

our handicap last time was time between shooters.  with steel and tweaked layout from thomas, this can be achieved if we have our poop in a group.  personally, i'm pretty excited.

if you guys want to meet to go over details and look over the layout, say when.  if the forum area here can do that, then that'll work too.  just say so either way...

If you want to promote this in the future, pics and esp. video are going to go a long way.

Do you have the head mount for your GoPro?  Out of all the angles I tried at the rally, that one was probably the best combination of easy and good results.

got it.

Spart I don't think you understand that most people are not playing the carny game with you.  You mentioned right off the block you would want to do a walk through once an hour.  I honestly believe you are completely alone in that thought process and the style of gun play everyone else is talking about in here.  You also mentioned serious vs play claiming we should lean towards play.  I believe the intent of this is to be serious where serious people who are willing to put their best foot forward.  I am sorry to say it but if you want it to be more on the play side or you think a shoot should be a few minutes shooting come and go as you like this thread is not for you.

If you want to have a mouth breathing convention with some dirt shooting mixed in you can set up a shoot by all means.  I would rather have 20 shooters total able to participate and for all of them to have a good time than to have 120 shooters come and shoot only to think it was an epic waste of time and energy.  

The fact that you have not attended shoots with "pre-registration" does not mean it is a bad idea or fit for this.  It seems like around here we get a lot of soft maybe I can come type situations.  How on earth do you expect septic to be able to prepare as well as the other guys putting work into this if they don't know how many to be ready for?  How would you like to put money time and talent into putting together a great shoot to have 4 guys show up?  I shot a few decent leagues in Colorado they needed at least x number of shooters to make it worth doing.  

This is not a 3 year plan.  This is a first time plan.  The last shoot that we refer to was an open house that happened to have a 3 gun exhibition and machine gun shoot.  You don't do 3 gun with one stage that you hope to be able to shoot more than once.  No where else do people do that.  You don't build a following of repeat shooters by having a swarm of new shooters who have no clue of what is going on shooting one course of fire that takes most shooters sub 3 minutes.  Any shooter worth a damn will instantly want to expand on that.  Shooters don't want to shoot and leave knowing that it would take hours to shoot again.  No one will travel for that.  At weld county 3 gun in colorado shooters travel from all over the state to attend.  They are well run and loads of fun I was happy to drive 3 hours each way to go because they were engaging fast paced and I got to shoot a bunch.  Do you really think anyone would do the same if you gain a reputation of having poor course design and administration?  

If you want to dick around with a wheel gun or a comm block pocket pistol that is your game.  If this type of thing is going to continue it will likely break into some kind of stages when people get more of a feel what to to expect.  You can shoot limited 10 or something and maybe be competitive.  Everyone else wants to compete and win and they want the win to be worth something.

I have my own timer and can play around against a clock any time.  Anyone with a smart phone can do the same.  I would suggest if you want to come shoot at one of the few events in Iowa it would be smart to bring the guns that are best suited to the course and to plan to win.  

Wait, what!...  There is an iphone app to be used as a shot timer???  That would have saved me a hundred dollars.  

Im sure there is I have used them in the past I have a pact pro but in a pinch I use ipsc shot timer on my android.

Calm down dude, did somebody piss in your coffee?

I'm trying to make the distinction between our group of people and the groups you're familiar with.  Those 3-gun shoots didn't pop up overnight.  We'll be lucky to have ten people show up who have ever shot a regulation 3-gun match in their lives.  Case in point: how many people at the last match (aside from the guys running Saigas) showed up with anything competition worthy to reload shotgun from besides me and you?  I didn't notice anybody and had to hold up a box of shotgun shells for most of the shooters when I was RO'ing.

You can plan to put on a first rate professional match, but what if the people who show up aren't first rate professionals?  What if you have to bring them along?  One or two new guys at a match where everyone else has experience isn't usually a problem, you can usually identify them and help them out and answer questions.  But if 8 out of 10 are new to practical shooting?

I totally get what you're aiming at and believe me, I personally want to attend that type of match.  But I have some competition experience under my belt and I wouldn't be overwhelmed by it all.

I was also under the impression that this would coincide with a CCA build day & open house but that's apparently not the case, my bad.

i was considering offering it at the same time, but the fact is it would be better to have an open house and MG shoot on a different day.  with a day 3gun on a bigger more professional scale morphing into a night shoot, we'll all have plenty to do with lots of moving parts.  i think having another function on top of it would diminish the 3gun match, and that isn't a good thing.  thomas suggested having a genuine match with a genuine start, and that is the goal.  i simply offered up weapons for those didn't have the equipment.  those guys, if any, that take me up on the offer are certainly welcome, but they need to understand that while this group will certainly be helpful and accommodating, the purpose is to shoot well and focus on putting some great scores up.  

safety is our first goal, and a close second is efficiency of the match in every facet.  if folks are down for that great.  if not, they're welcome to watch.  i'm sure we'll have ideas that come from the planning of this and the execution as well.  afterward we can evaluate what went well, what needs improvement, and adjust.  but without a serious bunch with serious effort we'll never get the baseline we need to morph it into something kick ass.  so we're going to consider this a "full on" 3gun comp with everything that implies.  

I have yet to do any 3 gun stuff but I have been wanting to for a long time. I will be bringing my benelli m4, xdm 5.25 in 9mm and my 3.5k uber ar15.  What I don't have is magazine and shot shell holders for my belt. How many AR mags, pistol mags and shot shells do I need attach to my  body for 3 gun?  If someone who is the know can put up a list of basic items needed as well information on what brands/items work the best I'd appreciate it.

All of that info will come later.

As for now, count on having mag carriers available to use.  But, You can pick up some ok carriers for pretty cheap, maybe something to plan for. If you need suggestions just ask.



Spart,
We all started somewhere, not everyone is a seasoned competition gunslinger like yourself... Doesn't mean we should not strive to put on as good of a match that we can. If 9 out of 10 are newbies, but show up with the right attitude, all will be fine.

This match won't be the last of its kind that we do, and if you want to get more "quality" shooters involved, we need to show them it will be worth their time.

I fully expect any experienced shooter that shows up, to help the newer guys. Around these parts we are pretty helpful, we may tease eachother, but it's a good group of guys and they'll be more than willing to help out... And not try to sell them short.

Would hardly call myself seasoned, I've only been doing it off and on for a couple years.  And I do it for fun.  But that's more than 95% of people.

Along the lines of getting experienced people to show up, I'm not seeing this promoted on any of the Iowa practical shooting mailing lists I'm on, nor on iashooters.org.  Those would be excellent places to expose this to more than just the IAHTF crowd.

We don't need any more experienced people, I'd like to place decently. Spart, take a step back and breathe.  This isn't any kind of sanctioned event.  Stop being weird.

I'm thinking experienced people will help it succeed.  It's always nice to see what other people run and most guys will talk your ear off about their equipment if you care to listen.

There you go being weird again.  This is a arfcom IAHTF shooting event, what about that don't you understand?

Guy think of this like a club championship, this is for the bragging right to say you are the best in the forum. ( even the guy from Neb. We have a little while, so let's calm down a bit and I will get details out as things are ironed out.

I would bring 3 rifle mags, 4 pistol and a couple boxes of shells. I posted a picture setup of what I used last time.

Whatever you decide it to be, I want to see it succeed.  But the matches forney was talking about modeling this on probably weren't limited to a forum.

Nick was trying to add a little insight on how matches ran he's been to... That's it.

Nicky boy is helping toss out ideas, but is too far away to be a key planner. As it stands Thomas, septic and I are running the show. Anything else is Just helpful discussion.

You can be my wing man any day.

Guess I'll just sweep the floors when you guys are all done then.

Oh yea, Jackie is in also...

Well that begs the question, do you guys want to run this more like a legit competition?  If so, promoting it through the mailing lists and iashooters.org when there are details to promote would be the way to go.

There are two clubs in IA that I know of that ran 3-gun matches last year, Ankeny Ikes Practical Shooters (AIPS) who had a decent turnout for their USPSA multigun match and West Liberty Gun Club (also USPSA but I'm not as familiar with them.)  Some of those guys might even be able to help out with equipment.

One thing to consider is that like forney said, there's not much of a 3-gun established presence in Iowa.  The clubs that do it are generally hosting pistol-only matches most of the year and the 3-gun matches are a break from the routine.  Some of these guys who have probably invested in equipment to shoot the few local matches would probably appreciate another opportunity to run their gear through the wringer.

I'm just interested in the night shoot. I hate timed shotgun reloading, er, 3 gun.  I don't even have a shotgun.

doubled - using my phone

Another thing that I just remembered, practiscore is pretty slick.  My local club switched to using it and I did some of the scoring on a tablet at the last match.  It works like magic, but I don't know if it costs money.  But it can back up to multiple devices over WIFi and also to the net if you have a connection, and you get to see the results on their website like in the link I posted above.

Something to think about.

Small group of IAHTF members, quality set up and a good time proving who is the king of the ring.

Spart, fucking relax.    My god man.

You can use my benelli m4 if I can play with your nv toys.

Hey, I'm on board with making this legit.  forney, despite his rants, is right about one thing: the selection of three gun matches in Iowa does suck.