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Posted: 8/1/2015 8:03:51 PM EDT
[#1]
First a rifle always a rifle
I will edit out as needed. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 9:36:18 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First a rifle always a rifle Steve . I disagree. Anytime the above mentioned configuration is assembled under 26", it is considered a Michigan pistol; MCL 750.224b(4) was added to require that a person, except a manufacturer, lawfully making, transferring, or possessing a SBS or a SBR that is 26 inches or less in length comply with the registration requirements of MCL 28.422 or 28.422a. A SBS or a SBR that is 26 inches or less in length is considered a pistol as defined by Michigan law and is subject to all Michigan statutes applicable to pistols https://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSPLegalUpdate106_451985_7.pdf |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 9:42:07 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I disagree. Anytime the above mentioned configuration is assembled under 26", it is considered a Michigan pistol; MCL 750.224b(4) was added to require that a person, except a manufacturer, lawfully making, transferring, or possessing a SBS or a SBR that is 26 inches or less in length comply with the registration requirements of MCL 28.422 or 28.422a. A SBS or a SBR that is 26 inches or less in length is considered a pistol as defined by Michigan law and is subject to all Michigan statutes applicable to pistols https://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSPLegalUpdate106_451985_7.pdf Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
First a rifle always a rifle Steve . I disagree. Anytime the above mentioned configuration is assembled under 26", it is considered a Michigan pistol; MCL 750.224b(4) was added to require that a person, except a manufacturer, lawfully making, transferring, or possessing a SBS or a SBR that is 26 inches or less in length comply with the registration requirements of MCL 28.422 or 28.422a. A SBS or a SBR that is 26 inches or less in length is considered a pistol as defined by Michigan law and is subject to all Michigan statutes applicable to pistols https://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSPLegalUpdate106_451985_7.pdf https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download ATF Rul. 2011-4 Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 11:58:46 PM EDT
[#4]
Federal law versus State law. Apples and Oranges
Michigan doesn't care what the Feds say, otherwise we wouldn't have a handgun registration at all. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 8:47:07 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Federal law versus State law. Apples and Oranges Michigan doesn't care what the Feds say, otherwise we wouldn't have a handgun registration at all. 
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Posted: 8/2/2015 11:40:24 AM EDT
[#6]
When you re-register (Form 1) a previously registered rifle as an SBR, it's the same as "manufacturing" a new weapon. Everything starts over.
The Feds require the tax stamp process. Michigan requires the pistol registration if the SBR is under 26" It sounds like you understand the Federal process, but also understand Michigan has a different process. Think "dual registration". Both entities need to be satisfied. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 12:17:49 PM EDT
[#7]
It scares me how much bad info is given here.
You cannot make a rifle into a pistol. No. No matter what you heard. If you decide to shorten the barrel on that rifle you file a form 1 for an SBR. If that sbr meets the definition of a pistol in michigan you also have to register it as such. You form 1 a lower. You are allowed to temporarily change the configuration to any other barrel length as long as you can return it to the configuration on the form. Be careful as having multiple short uppers laying around may be viewed as constructive possession if you have non nfa lowers laying around too. Many guys buy a couple extra virgin lowers as hosts for extra short uppers for a valid defense just in case. Guys have been prosecuted for having a short upper with no legal host. To my knowledge the multiple short uppers with one legal host has not been adjudicated. If you had no other non nfa lowers I believe you would be okay. If you do.... keep a virgin lower for each. It may be prudent to reg them in Michigan as a pistol as well to cover your ass. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 12:25:16 PM EDT
[#8]
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Posted: 8/2/2015 1:04:46 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You cannot make a rifle into a pistol. No. No matter what you heard. Unless it is an originally registered rifle that has been recently re-registered (Form 1) as an SBR. Then it is a Michigan pistol if under 26". I think this is the sticking point here. Yes, you cannot make a registered rifle into a registered pistol. Got it. But we're not talking about a rifle, we're talking about an SBR. "Once a rifle, always a rifle" really doesn't apply to this conversation, no matter how many times we repeat it. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 3:17:10 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless it is an originally registered rifle that has been recently re-registered (Form 1) as an SBR. Then it is a Michigan pistol if under 26". I think this is the sticking point here. Yes, you cannot make a registered rifle into a registered pistol. Got it. But we're not talking about a rifle, we're talking about an SBR. "Once a rifle, always a rifle" really doesn't apply to this conversation, no matter how many times we repeat it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You cannot make a rifle into a pistol. No. No matter what you heard. Unless it is an originally registered rifle that has been recently re-registered (Form 1) as an SBR. Then it is a Michigan pistol if under 26". I think this is the sticking point here. Yes, you cannot make a registered rifle into a registered pistol. Got it. But we're not talking about a rifle, we're talking about an SBR. "Once a rifle, always a rifle" really doesn't apply to this conversation, no matter how many times we repeat it. QFT |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 10:03:10 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless it is an originally registered rifle that has been recently re-registered (Form 1) as an SBR. Then it is a Michigan pistol if under 26". I think this is the sticking point here. Yes, you cannot make a registered rifle into a registered pistol. Got it. But we're not talking about a rifle, we're talking about an SBR. "Once a rifle, always a rifle" really doesn't apply to this conversation, no matter how many times we repeat it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You cannot make a rifle into a pistol. No. No matter what you heard. Unless it is an originally registered rifle that has been recently re-registered (Form 1) as an SBR. Then it is a Michigan pistol if under 26". I think this is the sticking point here. Yes, you cannot make a registered rifle into a registered pistol. Got it. But we're not talking about a rifle, we're talking about an SBR. "Once a rifle, always a rifle" really doesn't apply to this conversation, no matter how many times we repeat it. Under federal law, the "Once a rifle, always a rifle" statement is correct. Once a firearm has been trasnferred on a 4473 as a rifle, it can no longer be transferred as a pistol ever. However, that is federal law, and Michigan law differs. To the OP's question, if the SBR falls under 26" in length with the stock collapsed and non-permanent muzzle devices removed, then it must be registered as a pistol in MI. However, if you change the stock or barrel/upper and it is no longer under 26" OAL, then you are no afforded the ability to use it as a pistol (i.e. concealed carry, loaded in a vehicle, etc.). So, your ability to be able to carry it loaded in a vehicle will depend on the OAL at that time. |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 10:39:28 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Under federal law, the "Once a rifle, always a rifle" statement is correct. Once a firearm has been trasnferred on a 4473 as a rifle, it can no longer be transferred as a pistol ever. However, that is federal law, and Michigan law differs. To the OP's question, if the SBR falls under 26" in length with the stock collapsed and non-permanent muzzle devices removed, then it must be registered as a pistol in MI. However, if you change the stock or barrel/upper and it is no longer under 26" OAL, then you are no afforded the ability to use it as a pistol (i.e. concealed carry, loaded in a vehicle, etc.). So, your ability to be able to carry it loaded in a vehicle will depend on the OAL at that time. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You cannot make a rifle into a pistol. No. No matter what you heard. Unless it is an originally registered rifle that has been recently re-registered (Form 1) as an SBR. Then it is a Michigan pistol if under 26". I think this is the sticking point here. Yes, you cannot make a registered rifle into a registered pistol. Got it. But we're not talking about a rifle, we're talking about an SBR. "Once a rifle, always a rifle" really doesn't apply to this conversation, no matter how many times we repeat it. Under federal law, the "Once a rifle, always a rifle" statement is correct. Once a firearm has been trasnferred on a 4473 as a rifle, it can no longer be transferred as a pistol ever. However, that is federal law, and Michigan law differs. To the OP's question, if the SBR falls under 26" in length with the stock collapsed and non-permanent muzzle devices removed, then it must be registered as a pistol in MI. However, if you change the stock or barrel/upper and it is no longer under 26" OAL, then you are no afforded the ability to use it as a pistol (i.e. concealed carry, loaded in a vehicle, etc.). So, your ability to be able to carry it loaded in a vehicle will depend on the OAL at that time. QFT |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 11:26:40 AM EDT
[#13]
I had this BIG long multiple paragraph thing typed out and I decided to just delete it all and start with the basic to the point follow-ups.
OK so here is what I've come up with. 1. Federal Form 1, I'm going to use a measurement from the tip of the barrel with OUT the muzzle device (flash hider) attached to the barrel but with the stock fully extended and in it's longest configuration. This will be the measurement I put on my form 1 when I fill it out? 2. State of Michigan, I'm going to use a measurement from the tip of the barrel WITHOUT the muzzle device (flash hider) attached to the barrel but with the stock fully collapse and it's shortest configuration. If OVER 26" inches, I will not registered it as a pistol with the MSP? If under 26" inches I will register it as a Michigan Pistol with the MSP? 3. State of Michigan, If the SBR comes in at under 26" and I do register it as a Michigan Pistol I can only carry it concealed or loaded in my SUV when it is in a configuration that falls under 26" in length. It will still be OK to put a stock on it with that would bring it to over 26" inches but I need to make sure I'm not carrying it concealed or loaded in my SUV. For example, if the COLT N1 stock is 25 3/4 and the SOPMOD is 26 1/4, I could just swap back to the N1 stock before carrying it loaded in my SUV but then put the SOPMOD back on once I get to the range and I would be a-OK? 4. And this is a follow up. The muzzle device does NOT count for either Federal or State purposes as it's not permanently attached to the barrel so remove it before measuring for either entity? Correct? |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 2:06:01 PM EDT
[#14]
OK I think I got it.
I just got off the phone with NFA. They want the OAL to be without the muzzle device attached AND with the stock fully extended. Also spoke to MSP and they were unsure of the whole what if it's this length under 26" with this stock but over 26" with this other stock but said to err on the side of caution when concealing or transporting and if it's under 26", my CPL/CCW rules apply but if it ended up over 26" treat it like it's normal rifle, unload and case with a lock or in the trunk. |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 4:12:57 PM EDT
[#15]
So can you have an ar with pistol tube ,over 26"? You just cant conceal it? I want to do a pistol with a 10.5" mainly for reliability issues. At least that's what I've read so far. Is the 7.5" upper is unreliable . I would like to do a bravo co upper with a 11.5 " upper.Along with a Phase 5 pistol tube.. Now if i would do this & goes over a the 26" mark then what?
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Posted: 8/3/2015 5:29:24 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So can you have an ar with pistol tube ,over 26"? You just cant conceal it? I want to do a pistol with a 10.5" mainly for reliability issues. At least that's what I've read so far. Is the 7.5" upper is unreliable . I would like to do a bravo co upper with a 11.5 " upper.Along with a Phase 5 pistol tube.. Now if i would do this & goes over a the 26" mark then what? Its a rifle as far as concealed carry is concerned but a registered as pistol not to be an SBR. |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 6:49:34 PM EDT
[#17]
Thank you!
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Posted: 8/4/2015 9:47:45 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had this BIG long multiple paragraph thing typed out and I decided to just delete it all and start with the basic to the point follow-ups. OK so here is what I've come up with. 1. Federal Form 1, I'm going to use a measurement from the tip of the barrel with OUT the muzzle device (flash hider) attached to the barrel but with the stock fully extended and in it's longest configuration. This will be the measurement I put on my form 1 when I fill it out? Yes. 2. State of Michigan, I'm going to use a measurement from the tip of the barrel WITHOUT the muzzle device (flash hider) attached to the barrel but with the stock fully collapse and it's shortest configuration. If OVER 26" inches, I will not registered it as a pistol with the MSP? If under 26" inches I will register it as a Michigan Pistol with the MSP? Yes. 3. State of Michigan, If the SBR comes in at under 26" and I do register it as a Michigan Pistol I can only carry it concealed or loaded in my SUV when it is in a configuration that falls under 26" in length. It will still be OK to put a stock on it with that would bring it to over 26" inches but I need to make sure I'm not carrying it concealed or loaded in my SUV. For example, if the COLT N1 stock is 25 3/4 and the SOPMOD is 26 1/4, I could just swap back to the N1 stock before carrying it loaded in my SUV but then put the SOPMOD back on once I get to the range and I would be a-OK? Yes. If it is in a configuration that makes the OAL under 26", it must be registered as a pistol in MI, and it may be carried according to MI pistol laws. If the OAL is over 26", the pistol laws no longer apply and it must be treated as a rifle if it has a stock on it. 4. And this is a follow up. The muzzle device does NOT count for either Federal or State purposes as it's not permanently attached to the barrel so remove it before measuring for either entity? Correct. Neither MI nor the feds count removable muzzle devices in the OAL measurement. It must be permanently attached by welding, brazing, soldering, pinning, etc. to count in the OAL measurement. Correct? Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had this BIG long multiple paragraph thing typed out and I decided to just delete it all and start with the basic to the point follow-ups. OK so here is what I've come up with. 1. Federal Form 1, I'm going to use a measurement from the tip of the barrel with OUT the muzzle device (flash hider) attached to the barrel but with the stock fully extended and in it's longest configuration. This will be the measurement I put on my form 1 when I fill it out? Yes. 2. State of Michigan, I'm going to use a measurement from the tip of the barrel WITHOUT the muzzle device (flash hider) attached to the barrel but with the stock fully collapse and it's shortest configuration. If OVER 26" inches, I will not registered it as a pistol with the MSP? If under 26" inches I will register it as a Michigan Pistol with the MSP? Yes. 3. State of Michigan, If the SBR comes in at under 26" and I do register it as a Michigan Pistol I can only carry it concealed or loaded in my SUV when it is in a configuration that falls under 26" in length. It will still be OK to put a stock on it with that would bring it to over 26" inches but I need to make sure I'm not carrying it concealed or loaded in my SUV. For example, if the COLT N1 stock is 25 3/4 and the SOPMOD is 26 1/4, I could just swap back to the N1 stock before carrying it loaded in my SUV but then put the SOPMOD back on once I get to the range and I would be a-OK? Yes. If it is in a configuration that makes the OAL under 26", it must be registered as a pistol in MI, and it may be carried according to MI pistol laws. If the OAL is over 26", the pistol laws no longer apply and it must be treated as a rifle if it has a stock on it. 4. And this is a follow up. The muzzle device does NOT count for either Federal or State purposes as it's not permanently attached to the barrel so remove it before measuring for either entity? Correct. Neither MI nor the feds count removable muzzle devices in the OAL measurement. It must be permanently attached by welding, brazing, soldering, pinning, etc. to count in the OAL measurement. Correct? Quoted:
OK I think I got it. I just got off the phone with NFA. They want the OAL to be without the muzzle device attached AND with the stock fully extended. Also spoke to MSP and they were unsure of the whole what if it's this length under 26" with this stock but over 26" with this other stock but said to err on the side of caution when concealing or transporting and if it's under 26", my CPL/CCW rules apply but if it ended up over 26" treat it like it's normal rifle, unload and case with a lock or in the trunk. That basically confirms everything that I've said in this thread. The NFA wants to know the original main configuration of the firearm. You may change that configuration, but if you permanently change it (i.e. sell off the original upper), you are supposed to notify the NFA of the new configuration. As for MI law, if the firearm has a stock, it must be over 26", or be registered with the NFA as an SBR and MI as a pistol if it's under 26". If you keep the OAL under 26", you may carry just like any other pistol. If you change the configuration and it is now over 26", you must follow rifle laws. |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 1:15:27 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When you re-register (Form 1) a previously registered rifle as an SBR, it's the same as "manufacturing" a new weapon. Everything starts over. The Feds require the tax stamp process. Michigan requires the pistol registration if the SBR is under 26" It sounds like you understand the Federal process, but also understand Michigan has a different process. Think "dual registration". Both entities need to be satisfied. I understand what you are saying, it's what I have heard many others say. MCL 750.224b(4) is basically the requirement to register a SBS or SBR. in MCL 750.224b(4) there is an exception for a manufacture to not register a SBS or SBR with the MSP. Arguably you could say that by applying for a Form 1 you are inherently "manufacturing" a new firearm therefore being "a manufacture" and exempt from MCL 28.422 and 28.422a. I'm not an attorney but I have read through many of the MCL firearms laws, the way I see it clearly separates Form 1's from Form 4's. Am I missing something? |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 8:43:15 PM EDT
[#20]
So what is the State of Michigan's view on the Thompson Center's Encore firearms?
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Posted: 9/4/2015 2:21:23 AM EDT
[#21]
They are defiantly legal to have in Michigan. It would be considered to be a SBR if you have a pistol barrel on a rifle frame and would need ATF approval on a Form 1 or Form 4. I just am not to clear on the registration when using a Form 1. Typically people say that if it is less than 26" it needs to be registered as a pistol even if it is a SBR in the eyes of the ATF.
Jabe |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 9:09:21 AM EDT
[#22]
Shit...figuring out Calculus is easier than this
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Posted: 9/5/2015 9:57:41 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Typically people say that if it is less than 26" it needs to be registered as a pistol even if it is a SBR in the eyes of the ATF. That's due to MI law and applies to both Form 1 and 4. Under MI law, SBRs and SBSs under 26" OAL must be registered as pistols. |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 3:28:06 PM EDT
[#24]
OK....
I have a RRA pistol marked lower that was transferred and registered with sheriff as such. I am about to complete the upper, am I restricted on overall length?? I am looking at a 11" barrel, do I have to be under 26"... or is that just if I want to conceal or leave loaded in a vehicle? ty |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 4:11:28 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK.... I have a RRA pistol marked lower that was transferred and registered with sheriff as such. I am about to complete the upper, am I restricted on overall length?? I am looking at a 11" barrel, do I have to be under 26"... or is that just if I want to conceal or leave loaded in a vehicle? ty Under 26" to carry as a pistol with cpl. Over 26" in Mi law isn't considered a pistol. |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 4:16:32 PM EDT
[#26]
ok, maybe ill build it with a shorter barrel and be under 26. ty
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Posted: 9/5/2015 4:22:27 PM EDT
[#27]
Is that pistol buffer tube to tip of barrel w/out muzzle device?
ty |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 4:25:06 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is that pistol buffer tube to tip of barrel w/out muzzle device? ty From the stock collapsed to the end of the barrel without flash hider. I ended up with a 7.5" barrel |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 4:27:51 PM EDT
[#29]
no stock on my pistol lower :)
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Posted: 9/5/2015 4:47:43 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
no stock on my pistol lower :) I was thinking you were doing an SBR ? |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 7:18:09 PM EDT
[#31]
no, just building a ar pistol
:) |
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Posted: 9/6/2015 12:02:02 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is that pistol buffer tube to tip of barrel w/out muzzle device? ty If the muzzle device is removable, then the measurement is taken without it installed. If it's permanently attached by welding or pinning, then you include the muzzle device in the measurement. However, I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't stick a longer muzzle device on to make it legal. You gain nothing and lose the advantages of a longer barrel. |
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Posted: 9/6/2015 3:09:21 PM EDT
[#33]
im actuallt trying to figure out if my 11" barrel will be legal on my reg. pistol lower?? As is im hearing I may be too long? If im over 26"...... :/ |
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Posted: 9/6/2015 10:09:07 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
im actuallt trying to figure out if my 11" barrel will be legal on my reg. pistol lower?? As is im hearing I may be too long? If im over 26"...... :/ The way I understand it, you can make it as long as you want. Over 26 just means it doesn't have to be registered and can't be carried w/ a CPL. Falls into territory between rifle and pistol, it's just a firearm. |
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Posted: 9/7/2015 2:10:53 PM EDT
[#35]
ok, kool! :) Too many dang laws on this stuff! Next I'm going to do an SBR...... makes me nervous on doing everything right :O
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Posted: 9/7/2015 2:10:53 PM EDT
[#36]
ok, kool! :) Too many dang laws on this stuff! Next I'm going to do an SBR...... makes me nervous on doing everything right :O
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Posted: 9/8/2015 8:22:59 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The way I understand it, you can make it as long as you want. Over 26 just means it doesn't have to be registered and can't be carried w/ a CPL. Falls into territory between rifle and pistol, it's just a firearm. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
im actuallt trying to figure out if my 11" barrel will be legal on my reg. pistol lower?? As is im hearing I may be too long? If im over 26"...... :/ The way I understand it, you can make it as long as you want. Over 26 just means it doesn't have to be registered and can't be carried w/ a CPL. Falls into territory between rifle and pistol, it's just a firearm. Yes, that's correct. You can register a lower as a pistol as long as that lower have never been transferred on a 4473 as a rifle, and the OAL of the AR at time of registration is under 26" OAL. After it's registered, you can put on a longer upper/barrel, but if the OAL becomes more than 26", then you cannot carry it like a concealed pistol. |
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Posted: 9/9/2015 8:46:35 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's due to MI law and applies to both Form 1 and 4. Under MI law, SBRs and SBSs under 26" OAL must be registered as pistols. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Typically people say that if it is less than 26" it needs to be registered as a pistol even if it is a SBR in the eyes of the ATF. That's due to MI law and applies to both Form 1 and 4. Under MI law, SBRs and SBSs under 26" OAL must be registered as pistols. Whats the exception for? |
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Posted: 9/10/2015 12:36:23 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whats the exception for? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Typically people say that if it is less than 26" it needs to be registered as a pistol even if it is a SBR in the eyes of the ATF. That's due to MI law and applies to both Form 1 and 4. Under MI law, SBRs and SBSs under 26" OAL must be registered as pistols. Whats the exception for? What exception are you talking about? Under federal law, a rifle with a barrel less than 16" in length, or an OAL less than 26" must be registered with the BATFE as an SBR (typically through a Form 1 or a Form 4). Under MI law, firearms less than 26" OAL must be registered as pistols, and this includes SBRs under 26" OAL. |
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Posted: 9/10/2015 11:00:38 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What exception are you talking about? Under federal law, a rifle with a barrel less than 16" in length, or an OAL less than 26" must be registered with the BATFE as an SBR (typically through a Form 1 or a Form 4). Under MI law, firearms less than 26" OAL must be registered as pistols, and this includes SBRs under 26" OAL. I understand Federal Law pertaining to SBR's and it seems clear to me but when it comes to MI law I'm more confused. I understand the "under 26" OAL must be registered as a pistol" statement, it's what everyone says including the MSP, but the MSP are not always correct. If you agree that MCL 28.422 and 28.422a are the requirements to register a pistol we are off to a good start. MCL 750.224b is the restriction on SBR's or SBS's in Michigan. In 750.224b(4) there is an exemption for a manufacture to comply with MCL 28.422 and 28.422a (the registration of a pistol). A Form 1 is clearly to make a firearm, and a Form 4 is a transfer. From the Form 1 definitions: The term “make”, and the various derivatives of such word, shall include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under the NFA), putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a firearm. So when you make a SBR or SBS under a Form 1, are you the manufacture or maker? ATF says Yes and MSP says No? Seems confusing. 
See MCL 750.224b below. |
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Posted: 9/10/2015 11:01:18 PM EDT
[#41]
THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931 750.224b Short-barreled shotgun or rifle; making, manufacturing, transferring, or possessing as felony; penalty; exceptions; short-barreled shotgun or rifle 26 inches or less; short-barreled shotgun or rifle greater than 26 inches; violation of subsection (5) as civil infraction; seizure and forfeiture; applicability of MCL 776.20 to subsection (3). Sec. 224b. (1) A person shall not make, manufacture, transfer, or possess a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle. (2) A person who violates subsection (1) is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both. (3) Subsection (1) does not apply to a short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle that is lawfully made, manufactured, transferred, or possessed under federal law. (4) A person, excluding a manufacturer, lawfully making, transferring, or possessing a short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle that is 26 inches or less in length under this section shall comply with section 2 or 2a of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422 and 28.422a. (5) A person who possesses a short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle that is greater than 26 inches in length under this section shall possess a copy of the federal registration of that short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle while transporting or using that short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle and shall present that federal registration to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer. ... |
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Posted: 9/11/2015 8:57:29 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I understand Federal Law pertaining to SBR's and it seems clear to me but when it comes to MI law I'm more confused. I understand the "under 26" OAL must be registered as a pistol" statement, it's what everyone says including the MSP, but the MSP are not always correct. If you agree that MCL 28.422 and 28.422a are the requirements to register a pistol we are off to a good start. MCL 750.224b is the restriction on SBR's or SBS's in Michigan. In 750.224b(4) there is an exemption for a manufacture to comply with MCL 28.422 and 28.422a (the registration of a pistol). A Form 1 is clearly to make a firearm, and a Form 4 is a transfer. From the Form 1 definitions: The term “make”, and the various derivatives of such word, shall include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under the NFA), putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a firearm. So when you make a SBR or SBS under a Form 1, are you the manufacture or maker? ATF says Yes and MSP says No? Seems confusing.
See MCL 750.224b below. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What exception are you talking about? Under federal law, a rifle with a barrel less than 16" in length, or an OAL less than 26" must be registered with the BATFE as an SBR (typically through a Form 1 or a Form 4). Under MI law, firearms less than 26" OAL must be registered as pistols, and this includes SBRs under 26" OAL. I understand Federal Law pertaining to SBR's and it seems clear to me but when it comes to MI law I'm more confused. I understand the "under 26" OAL must be registered as a pistol" statement, it's what everyone says including the MSP, but the MSP are not always correct. If you agree that MCL 28.422 and 28.422a are the requirements to register a pistol we are off to a good start. MCL 750.224b is the restriction on SBR's or SBS's in Michigan. In 750.224b(4) there is an exemption for a manufacture to comply with MCL 28.422 and 28.422a (the registration of a pistol). A Form 1 is clearly to make a firearm, and a Form 4 is a transfer. From the Form 1 definitions: The term “make”, and the various derivatives of such word, shall include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under the NFA), putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a firearm. So when you make a SBR or SBS under a Form 1, are you the manufacture or maker? ATF says Yes and MSP says No? Seems confusing.
See MCL 750.224b below. OK, I see what you're talking about. The MCL sections you called out are the correct ones. It does seem as though you would not have to register a Form 1'd SBR under 26" OAL. However, having said that, I wouldn't want to spend the money to argue that point should something ever happen. I'm sure that the intent of that clause is so that licensed manufacturers (FFLs with the SOT) do no have to register each and every SBR or SBS they produce. Granted, the wording implies anyone who Form 1's an SBR is covered too, I'm sure that wasn't the original intent and the author of the clause was simply ignorant on the NFA process. |
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Posted: 9/11/2015 10:09:59 PM EDT
[#43]
I agree, it would not be worth spending the money on an attorney or the felony charge, but it would be arguable if you were to have a SBR or SBS that was not registered with the MSP. I guess that's what you get when politicians try to write laws. With all the inconstancy's it makes understanding them difficult.
Jabe |
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