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Posted: 1/31/2015 1:52:31 PM EDT
[#1]
I sure hope it passes......
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Posted: 1/31/2015 1:57:36 PM EDT
[#2]
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I sure hope it passes...... Me too. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 2:00:02 PM EDT
[#3]
If TN doesn't make changes to meet federal requirements, it doesn't matter what the state law says.
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Posted: 1/31/2015 10:30:35 PM EDT
[#4]
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If TN doesn't make changes to meet federal requirements, it doesn't matter what the state law says. Yeah. I believe a yearly re-certification through NICS is main non-compliant issue. But main impediment is same as last time it was tried, the cash cow of the TICS fee (tax). - OS |
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Posted: 2/1/2015 1:26:18 AM EDT
[#5]
I'm guessing they'll just up the cost of the permit to cover the lost revenue.
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Posted: 2/1/2015 8:47:09 AM EDT
[#6]
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I'm guessing they'll just up the cost of the permit to cover the lost revenue. They discussed that last time around in committee 2 or 3 years ago, somebody even proposed a "formula" that permit holders bought an average of x number of firearms per year (obviously pulled out of thin air). Anyway, it never got out of committee, same ole graveyard House Ways and Means I believe it was. Oddly, I don't think anyone ever even brought up the fact that the Feds have to approve the permit process as a substitute, that it's not just up to the state, duh. - OS |
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Posted: 2/1/2015 8:54:57 PM EDT
[#7]
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They discussed that last time around in committee 2 or 3 years ago, somebody even proposed a "formula" that permit holders bought an average of x number of firearms per year (obviously pulled out of thin air). Anyway, it never got out of committee, same ole graveyard House Ways and Means I believe it was. Oddly, I don't think anyone ever even brought up the fact that the Feds have to approve the permit process as a substitute, that it's not just up to the state, duh. - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm guessing they'll just up the cost of the permit to cover the lost revenue. They discussed that last time around in committee 2 or 3 years ago, somebody even proposed a "formula" that permit holders bought an average of x number of firearms per year (obviously pulled out of thin air). Anyway, it never got out of committee, same ole graveyard House Ways and Means I believe it was. Oddly, I don't think anyone ever even brought up the fact that the Feds have to approve the permit process as a substitute, that it's not just up to the state, duh. - OS It's the same old game they play. "I voted for it but..." |
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Posted: 2/1/2015 10:20:59 PM EDT
[#8]
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I sure hope it passes...... Snowball in hell, IMO. You have any idea how much $$$ the TICS checks make the TN tax fund? 
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Posted: 2/1/2015 10:39:51 PM EDT
[#9]
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Snowball in hell, IMO. You have any idea how much $$$ the TICS checks make the TN tax fund? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I sure hope it passes...... Snowball in hell, IMO. You have any idea how much $$$ the TICS checks make the TN tax fund? For those that don't know... Oh, and the same dept that does TICS does other criminal background checks, for a nominal fee. http://www.tbi.state.tn.us/firearm_check/firearm_stats.shtml |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 10:37:12 AM EDT
[#10]
I'm happy to pony up the $10. There's no income tax on wages here. Winning.
Also seems to be less of a hassle calling in than elsewhere.
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Posted: 2/2/2015 2:52:23 PM EDT
[#11]
Even if the Feds don't approve of it as a valid exemption, wouldn't it give dealers an option to run the free NICS check if you have a permit?
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Posted: 2/2/2015 4:59:00 PM EDT
[#12]
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Even if the Feds don't approve of it as a valid exemption, wouldn't it give dealers an option to run the free NICS check if you have a permit? If that's the goal, just nuke TICS. - OS |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 5:09:41 PM EDT
[#13]
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Even if the Feds don't approve of it as a valid exemption, wouldn't it give dealers an option to run the free NICS check if you have a permit? No. With TN being a point of contact state dealers must use TICS. If a dealer were to try to register with NICS they'd get talked to like they were idiots. I'm just guessing here, but I bet that the state gets federal money for lightening the load on the FBI |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 5:13:00 PM EDT
[#14]
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... I'm just guessing here, but I bet that the state gets federal money for lightening the load on the FBI Doesn't lighten anything ... NICS still gets queried by TICS for gun purchases. Also by HCP apps. - OS |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 6:02:56 PM EDT
[#15]
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If TN doesn't make changes to meet federal requirements, it doesn't matter what the state law says. Tennessee doesn't have to change anything to meet fed requirements for NICS check exemption. (3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to a firearm transfer between a licensee and another person if— (A) (i) such other person has presented to the licensee a permit that— (I) allows such other person to possess or acquire a firearm; and (II) was issued not more than 5 years earlier by the State in which the transfer is to take place; and (ii) the law of the State provides that such a permit is to be issued only after an authorized government official has verified that the information available to such official does not indicate that possession of a firearm by such other person would be in violation of law; |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 6:04:24 PM EDT
[#16]
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Doesn't lighten anything ... NICS still gets queried by TICS for gun purchases. Also by HCP apps. - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
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... I'm just guessing here, but I bet that the state gets federal money for lightening the load on the FBI Doesn't lighten anything ... NICS still gets queried by TICS for gun purchases. Also by HCP apps. - OS True but its a state employee that takes the call not a federal employee. |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 6:43:33 PM EDT
[#17]
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No. With TN being a point of contact state dealers must use TICS. If a dealer were to try to register with NICS they'd get talked to like they were idiots. I'm just guessing here, but I bet that the state gets federal money for lightening the load on the FBI Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Even if the Feds don't approve of it as a valid exemption, wouldn't it give dealers an option to run the free NICS check if you have a permit? No. With TN being a point of contact state dealers must use TICS. If a dealer were to try to register with NICS they'd get talked to like they were idiots. I'm just guessing here, but I bet that the state gets federal money for lightening the load on the FBI https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/brady-law.html#nics-poc-state |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 7:27:43 PM EDT
[#18]
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Tennessee doesn't have to change anything to meet fed requirements for NICS check exemption. (3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to a firearm transfer between a licensee and another person if— (A) (i) such other person has presented to the licensee a permit that— (I) allows such other person to possess or acquire a firearm; and (II) was issued not more than 5 years earlier by the State in which the transfer is to take place; and (ii) the law of the State provides that such a permit is to be issued only after an authorized government official has verified that the information available to such official does not indicate that possession of a firearm by such other person would be in violation of law; Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If TN doesn't make changes to meet federal requirements, it doesn't matter what the state law says. Tennessee doesn't have to change anything to meet fed requirements for NICS check exemption. (3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to a firearm transfer between a licensee and another person if— (A) (i) such other person has presented to the licensee a permit that— (I) allows such other person to possess or acquire a firearm; and (II) was issued not more than 5 years earlier by the State in which the transfer is to take place; and (ii) the law of the State provides that such a permit is to be issued only after an authorized government official has verified that the information available to such official does not indicate that possession of a firearm by such other person would be in violation of law; Must be buried elsewhere in the USC or in the CFR somewhere. From the TBI: "I have a Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit. Why do I also have to have a TICS/NICS check done to be able to purchase a firearm? Tennessee's Handgun Carry Permit does not meet the requirements of the federal Brady Bill because it lacks a requirement for an annual re-check of the permit holder's criminal history and it does not require a check through the National Instant Check System (NICS). Therefore, purchasers holding a valid Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit still have to have a TICS/NICS check performed when purchasing a firearm. The carry permit can be used as a primary source of identification for purchasing a firearm as long as it contains the purchaser's photograph, date of birth and current address." http://www.tbi.state.tn.us/firearm_check/firearm_faqs.shtml - OS |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 8:16:27 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
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Even if the Feds don't approve of it as a valid exemption, wouldn't it give dealers an option to run the free NICS check if you have a permit? No. With TN being a point of contact state dealers must use TICS. If a dealer were to try to register with NICS they'd get talked to like they were idiots. I'm just guessing here, but I bet that the state gets federal money for lightening the load on the FBI https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/brady-law.html#nics-poc-state Let me rephrase myself. Dealers in TN won't get a choice who they will use. |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 9:08:55 PM EDT
[#20]
If the law passes as written (odds: 0) dealers will have a dilemma. TN state law will excuse these from TICS, but Federal law will still require a background check. While a dealer could still run a TICS, there would be an option to register with the FBI and run a NICS check for those with HCPs. What is your evidence otherwise? I have supplied mine (i.e. not all transactions must use the same POC as long as a suitable check has been executed. If Tennessee steps aside in the case of HCP holders then the Feds must step in unless the HCP criterion meet the Brady law's conditions.)
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Posted: 2/2/2015 9:53:40 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the law passes as written (odds: 0) dealers will have a dilemma. TN state law will excuse these from TICS, but Federal law will still require a background check. While a dealer could still run a TICS, there would be an option to register with the FBI and run a NICS check for those with HCPs. What is your evidence otherwise? I have supplied mine (i.e. not all transactions must use the same POC as long as a suitable check has been executed. If Tennessee steps aside in the case of HCP holders then the Feds must step in unless the HCP criterion meet the Brady law's conditions.) . Dilemma? When was the last time you had someone from ATF over at dinner time? |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 10:16:42 PM EDT
[#22]
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Dilemma? When was the last time you had someone from ATF over at dinner time? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If the law passes as written (odds: 0) dealers will have a dilemma. TN state law will excuse these from TICS, but Federal law will still require a background check. While a dealer could still run a TICS, there would be an option to register with the FBI and run a NICS check for those with HCPs. What is your evidence otherwise? I have supplied mine (i.e. not all transactions must use the same POC as long as a suitable check has been executed. If Tennessee steps aside in the case of HCP holders then the Feds must step in unless the HCP criterion meet the Brady law's conditions.) . Dilemma? When was the last time you had someone from ATF over at dinner time? What does that have to do with my question? I don't fault an FFL at all for toeing the safe side of the line. I would do the same. At the the same time I would like to know the hard line of the (in this case hypothetical) law. You haven't convinced me otherwise. |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 10:34:35 PM EDT
[#23]
If anything changes ATF will inform dealers in TN as to what they are to do. If ATF says you call TICS and you try to use NICS they'll tell you you're a moron and hang up. If you say TN state law says no check needed and ATF say it does and you don't do a check, you'll lose your license after your first inspection and possibly face criminal charges.
I as a licensed dealer will do as told by ATF. If I don't like what they say, I'll give up my license because I, like everyone else here, can't fight a multimillion $ multi year lawsuit. |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 10:44:19 PM EDT
[#24]
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True but its a state employee that takes the call not a federal employee. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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... I'm just guessing here, but I bet that the state gets federal money for lightening the load on the FBI Doesn't lighten anything ... NICS still gets queried by TICS for gun purchases. Also by HCP apps. - OS True but its a state employee that takes the call not a federal employee. At one point in time the federal NICS check could be done electronically....I believe the ATF even supplied software.........not sure if that's still the case though...... |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 11:28:42 PM EDT
[#25]
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If anything changes ATF will inform dealers in TN as to what they are to do. If ATF says you call TICS and you try to use NICS they'll tell you you're a moron and hang up. If you say TN state law says no check needed and ATF say it does and you don't do a check, you'll lose your license after your first inspection and possibly face criminal charges. I as a licensed dealer will do as told by ATF. If I don't like what they say, I'll give up my license because I, like everyone else here, can't fight a multimillion $ multi year lawsuit. NICS isn't administered by the ATF. If state law says no local POC is required you go Federal. ATF IOI reads the state law and concurs that calling NICS (for an HCP holder) satisfies both state and federal laws. You don't deny that calling the state boys and the federal boys could both be options according to the FAQ I sent do you? I'm not trying to say that sticking to the current regime wouldn't be safer, only that a literal reading of the proposed law would support calling NICS. OhShoot, you seem pretty educated on the law, what is your opinion? |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 11:35:48 PM EDT
[#26]
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At one point in time the federal NICS check could be done electronically....I believe the ATF even supplied software.........not sure if that's still the case though...... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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... I'm just guessing here, but I bet that the state gets federal money for lightening the load on the FBI Doesn't lighten anything ... NICS still gets queried by TICS for gun purchases. Also by HCP apps. - OS True but its a state employee that takes the call not a federal employee. At one point in time the federal NICS check could be done electronically....I believe the ATF even supplied software.........not sure if that's still the case though...... Yes, nics can can be ran online, similar to TICS. |
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Posted: 2/3/2015 10:57:45 AM EDT
[#27]
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Must be buried elsewhere in the USC or in the CFR somewhere. From the TBI: "I have a Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit. Why do I also have to have a TICS/NICS check done to be able to purchase a firearm? Tennessee's Handgun Carry Permit does not meet the requirements of the federal Brady Bill because it lacks a requirement for an annual re-check of the permit holder's criminal history and it does not require a check through the National Instant Check System (NICS). Therefore, purchasers holding a valid Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit still have to have a TICS/NICS check performed when purchasing a firearm. The carry permit can be used as a primary source of identification for purchasing a firearm as long as it contains the purchaser's photograph, date of birth and current address." http://www.tbi.state.tn.us/firearm_check/firearm_faqs.shtml - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If TN doesn't make changes to meet federal requirements, it doesn't matter what the state law says. Tennessee doesn't have to change anything to meet fed requirements for NICS check exemption. (3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to a firearm transfer between a licensee and another person if— (A) (i) such other person has presented to the licensee a permit that— (I) allows such other person to possess or acquire a firearm; and (II) was issued not more than 5 years earlier by the State in which the transfer is to take place; and (ii) the law of the State provides that such a permit is to be issued only after an authorized government official has verified that the information available to such official does not indicate that possession of a firearm by such other person would be in violation of law; Must be buried elsewhere in the USC or in the CFR somewhere. From the TBI: "I have a Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit. Why do I also have to have a TICS/NICS check done to be able to purchase a firearm? Tennessee's Handgun Carry Permit does not meet the requirements of the federal Brady Bill because it lacks a requirement for an annual re-check of the permit holder's criminal history and it does not require a check through the National Instant Check System (NICS). Therefore, purchasers holding a valid Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit still have to have a TICS/NICS check performed when purchasing a firearm. The carry permit can be used as a primary source of identification for purchasing a firearm as long as it contains the purchaser's photograph, date of birth and current address." http://www.tbi.state.tn.us/firearm_check/firearm_faqs.shtml - OS Being as I am not a lawyer, I just tend to get confused. But I've spent a good hour this morning trying to comb through and find the wording that the TBI is referring to and I can't. I really can't figure this one out. I've been working with some coworkers and a lobbyist friend for the past 6 months to try and figure out how to make the HCP a valid exemption to the TICS check. But we never came up with anything concrete. The problem that this bill is going to face is that it will get a fiscal note attached to it. TBI or DOS or whoever will come in and testify about the loss in revenue and it will be killed in Finance committee. I hope that we can stop that. But it will not be an easy battle. |
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Posted: 2/3/2015 11:12:56 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Being as I am not a lawyer, I just tend to get confused. But I've spent a good hour this morning trying to comb through and find the wording that the TBI is referring to and I can't. I really can't figure this one out. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If TN doesn't make changes to meet federal requirements, it doesn't matter what the state law says. Tennessee doesn't have to change anything to meet fed requirements for NICS check exemption. (3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to a firearm transfer between a licensee and another person if— (A) (i) such other person has presented to the licensee a permit that— (I) allows such other person to possess or acquire a firearm; and (II) was issued not more than 5 years earlier by the State in which the transfer is to take place; and (ii) the law of the State provides that such a permit is to be issued only after an authorized government official has verified that the information available to such official does not indicate that possession of a firearm by such other person would be in violation of law; Must be buried elsewhere in the USC or in the CFR somewhere. From the TBI: "I have a Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit. Why do I also have to have a TICS/NICS check done to be able to purchase a firearm? Tennessee's Handgun Carry Permit does not meet the requirements of the federal Brady Bill because it lacks a requirement for an annual re-check of the permit holder's criminal history and it does not require a check through the National Instant Check System (NICS). Therefore, purchasers holding a valid Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit still have to have a TICS/NICS check performed when purchasing a firearm. The carry permit can be used as a primary source of identification for purchasing a firearm as long as it contains the purchaser's photograph, date of birth and current address." http://www.tbi.state.tn.us/firearm_check/firearm_faqs.shtml - OS Being as I am not a lawyer, I just tend to get confused. But I've spent a good hour this morning trying to comb through and find the wording that the TBI is referring to and I can't. I really can't figure this one out. I think the TBI is simply incorrect... either by ignorance or by design. |
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Posted: 2/3/2015 2:09:58 PM EDT
[#29]
The last time they tried this they were going to raise the initial app to $121 and the renewal to $56: http://www.capitol.tn.gov/Bills/107/Amend/SA0602.pdf. I'd be ok with that if it helped it pass.
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Posted: 2/3/2015 6:44:54 PM EDT
[#30]
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I think the TBI is simply incorrect... either by ignorance or by design. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If TN doesn't make changes to meet federal requirements, it doesn't matter what the state law says. Tennessee doesn't have to change anything to meet fed requirements for NICS check exemption. (3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to a firearm transfer between a licensee and another person if— (A) (i) such other person has presented to the licensee a permit that— (I) allows such other person to possess or acquire a firearm; and (II) was issued not more than 5 years earlier by the State in which the transfer is to take place; and (ii) the law of the State provides that such a permit is to be issued only after an authorized government official has verified that the information available to such official does not indicate that possession of a firearm by such other person would be in violation of law; Must be buried elsewhere in the USC or in the CFR somewhere. From the TBI: "I have a Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit. Why do I also have to have a TICS/NICS check done to be able to purchase a firearm? Tennessee's Handgun Carry Permit does not meet the requirements of the federal Brady Bill because it lacks a requirement for an annual re-check of the permit holder's criminal history and it does not require a check through the National Instant Check System (NICS). Therefore, purchasers holding a valid Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit still have to have a TICS/NICS check performed when purchasing a firearm. The carry permit can be used as a primary source of identification for purchasing a firearm as long as it contains the purchaser's photograph, date of birth and current address." http://www.tbi.state.tn.us/firearm_check/firearm_faqs.shtml - OS Being as I am not a lawyer, I just tend to get confused. But I've spent a good hour this morning trying to comb through and find the wording that the TBI is referring to and I can't. I really can't figure this one out. I think the TBI is simply incorrect... either by ignorance or by design. Could be, about the annual re-check. But it's true that the HCP process in TCA doesn't specifically mention undergoing a NICS check at all, even though the federal part would seem it would logically include one, dunno. And the Feds seem to agree, here is their "Brady Permit Chart": https://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/firearms-industry/permanent-brady-permit-chart - OS |
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Posted: 2/4/2015 11:47:12 AM EDT
[#31]
I wonder if one could ask the ATF (or DOJ) what requirement(s) the current HCP isn't meeting. Maybe the Nashville division?
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