Id happily take care of all the signs in Knox and Anderson counties.

You call or IM me, I will fly out and help you. No joke.

Who should I call/email about this bill? Would it be best to start calling now or wait until it comes out of the subcommittee?

IMO, it is not coming out.  Stick a fork in it.

You can petitition the House Finance and Ways and Means Committee.  I e-mailed one member week ago and never heard anything.  Bills that are deemed to cost the state money to implement by some mysterious people in Nashville, are put to the back of the stack if there is not a funding allocation in the 2014 budget bill already approved.  TN Legislature session comes to a close week after next.

CCW,

IMO you are wrong.  Yes it does have a fiscal note of $38,200 in increased state
spending and yes it still resides in the Finance, Ways & Means subcommittee.  
Today they published a "Behind the Budget" calendar without a specific meeting
date assigned to it.  That is a good sign.  There are specific plans in place to get
rid of that increased state spending deficit.  Once that happens the bill should
move forward rapidly.  The problem is we are running out of days to run these
bills; however, I am still confident the bill will pass the floor and become law
this year.

I would suggest you contact the members of the House Finance, Ways & Means
subcommittee, Rep. Harrison, Chairman, to indicate your support for the bill and
to urge them to favorably entertain an amendment to the bill to conform to the
Senate version setting on the House table.

It might be better to send a nasty gram to ALL members of the House Finance Ways and Means and tell them they are going to be scored on whether those firearms related bills that are held hostage in their committee are voted on the house floor or not!

sounds good. Post a copy of a good nastygram and contact info. We should all send one.

Edit: Contact info might already be posted, but i am one of the TL:DR group. My attention span won't allow me to read the thread again. LOL.

The committee info is here: http://www.capitol.tn.gov/house/committees/finance.html

As TN_Redneck points out there is a subcommittee to the committee.  But, I would recommend a full committee salvo.

This is a 'nastygram' I would suggest sending to the members of the Finance, Ways
& Means subcommittee:

Subject:  HB1407

“As a citizen of this great state, I would urge you, as a member of the House Finance,
Ways & Means subcommittee, on the very next meeting of the subcommittee to
consider favorably moving HB1407 by Representative Goins out of the subcommittee
on to the full F,W&M committee.  Thank you for your consideration.

Regards,

[sign your name]”

Contact information:

House Finance, Ways and Means Subcommittee:
Representative Mike Harrison (R-9), Chairman
(615) 741-7480
[email protected]

Representative David Alexander (R-39)
(615) 741-8695
[email protected]

Representative Joe Armstrong (D-15)
(615) 741-0768
[email protected]

Representative Kevin Brooks (R-24)
(615) 741-1350
[email protected]

Representative Karen D. Camper (D-87)
(615) 741-1898
[email protected]

Representative Craig Fitzhugh (D-82)
(615) 741-2134
[email protected]

Representative David B. Hawk (R-5)
(615) 741-7482
[email protected]

Representative Gerald McCormick (R-26)
(615) 741-2548
[email protected]

Representative Steve McDaniel (R-72)
(615) 741-0750
[email protected]

Representative Gary Odom (D-55)
(615) 741-4410
[email protected]

Representative Dennis Edward Roach (R-35)
(615) 741-2534
[email protected]

Representative Charles Michael Sargent (R-61)
(615) 741-6808
[email protected]


ETA:  Subject of your email

Done

Guys, I really hate to say this but I see the "fat lady" getting up on stage.

The controversy caused by the "open carry" bill has caused a tidal wave that
has sweep up the "guns in parks" legislation.

Controversy?

There was a huge shitstorm in the subcommittee last night and it ran out the clock and soured people on gun bills. The open carry bill getting through the senate threw a lot of people off guard I think.

The AP is reporting the Open Carry bill was voted down 10-to-1 in the House Finance Ways and Means Committee, and will not proceed to the house floor for a vote.  So, HB1407? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?  

One thing I did note, in the AP article...apparently there is a maneuver that can get a bill on the house floor for a vote even if Finance, House Ways and Means is sitting on it.  The House Open Carry rep Micah Van Huss decided not to try it, because "...they killed it fair and square...".

So, in order to kill HB1407 the TN House body has played an elaborate Kabuki theater including kiting a totally ineffective bill that would preempt old pre-'86 muni-park ban laws, dumping an open carry bill in the mix, arbitrarily assigning costs to implement changes, and yet gets good press like they are really supporting 2A rights.  

Well.....maybe next year.   And maybe NRA ought to move their convention to a more friendly venue.

Finally a note from NRA-ILA on TN "Carry in the Parks" House Bill 1407.   A little late, but interesting:



So, it is all Kabuki theater now.  Mike Harrison is obviously insulated from constituency retribution for some reason.  Rule 53 could be exercised to force house floor vote in spite of Harrisons' action.  But, this has all been orchestrated, and Rule 53 will not happen.

April 18, 2014

Commentary on “Guns in Parks” legislation – HB 1407 by Goins  / SB 1496 by Campfield:

I thought I would take a moment to write about the “Guns in Parks” legislation.  
Please understand this is just me writing and it is just my opinion for what it’s worth.

The “Guns in Parks” bill (HB 1407 and SB 1496) was good legislation and legislation
I felt was necessary.  Particular when you consider we are hosting the NRA annual
meeting here in Nashville next April 9 - 12, 2015.

So some will ask what killed the bill.  In my opinion what killed the bill was the Governor –
he, himself alone.  Not LT. Governor Ramsey nor Speaker Harwell for they were rather
supportive of the legislation, in particular Speaker Harwell, but Governor Haslam himself.  
The Mayors of Chattanooga, Knoxville, Nashville, and Memphis had an influence on the
members but that would not have killed the bill.  The Governor, being a past mayor of
Knoxville and a past (or present) member of Bloomberg’s “Mayors Against Illegal Guns”,
listened to his buddy presently in Knoxville and shut it down.

However, blame does not fall on his shoulders alone.  There are three contributing
factors which had a major influence on this legislation not passing and each must
share a portion of that blame.  These three factors are:
1.)The House Rules on bills introduced with a fiscal note – either positive or negative.
2.)The actions of the house sponsor, Rep. Goins, playing a game for to get other legislation passed.
3.)The introduction of the “open carry” legislation and other legislation detrimental to this bill’s passage.

Let’s look at each of these factors.  By our state constitution the general assembly must
pass a balanced budget.  They have no choice.  The Senate and House both have this
same obligation.  The Senate has decided to have a “sweeper” on their legislation that
any bill with less than a $50,000 negative fiscal note can pass out of the hearing
committee and does not have to be referred to their Finance, Ways & Means committee.  
The Senate bill moves on to Calendar committee for scheduling to the floor for a vote.  
The House does not have this “sweeper.”  They have decided that any bill with a fiscal
note other than “Not Significant” has to go to their Finance, Ways & Means committee
and even worse – the F,W&M subcommittee.  The “black hole” where 10 people decide
the fate of the world.  It is in Finance Sub where they play their games.  It is my opinion
if the Senate can sweep then the House should sweep.  The rule needs to be changed.

Representative Goins had three bills in which he was particularly concerned.  These
were the extension of the handgun permit period, the marina electrical protection and
the guns in parks legislation.  The HCP had a huge positive fiscal note that saved the
state millions of dollars.  The Governor and the Dept. of Safety were salivating over
this one.  The marina protection one was the problem child but one that Goins absolutely
needed to get passed.  The guns in parks was the pawn caught in the middle as far as
he was concerned.  The Senate passed the “guns in parks” bill early (Feb. 20th) and
sent it to the House to set on the table until they did their thing.  This is where things
start to get hinky.  And this also brings us to the third factor that contributed to the demise
of the “guns in Parks” legislation.

In January, on the first day of session, there were two small firearms related bills
which had their first reading.  These were HB1404/SB1700 and HB1405/SB1701.  
These were simple corrections to the employee safe commute legislation passed
last year.  By the end of the month they were through committee and on the floor.  
As a matter of fact the two Senate bills were on the consent calendar – probably the
first two firearms related bills to be on the consent calendar.  In the mean time the
Tennessee Firearms Association in conjunction with a senate and house sponsor
had introduced a bill to completely scrap the employee safe commute legislation
passed last year and instead reintroduce a completely new bill.  It is my personal
opinion they knew this legislation had no chance of passage and they didn’t care –
their objective was not to get firearm’s legislation passed but rather to get a voting
record so they could punish legislators in this fall’s elections.  But I digress….  
When the two bills came up on the Senate floor, the senate sponsor of the TFA
legislation first objected to these two bills being on the consent calendar which got
them moved to the regular calendar.  Then when they came up on the regular
calendar she moved to scrap the simple one paragraph language of each and
instead substitute her four  page bill even though her bill had not yet been heard
in committee.  I believe she and the TFA knew at that time their bill was going
nowhere.  They failed to get the language changed and the two bills passed.  
However, what they did do was create an atmosphere where the Senate and
House both felt they needed a “Firearms Calendar” in their committees to hear
all of the firearms related bills at one time.  This is where their actions start to
impact the “guns in parks” legislation because that bill was scheduled to be
heard in the House Civil Justice committee that week but was taken off notice
to be placed on the firearms calendar – a delay of six weeks.  We were successful
in getting this bill pulled up early so that the first part of March we had the
committee hearings.  (Now keep in mind the Senate bill had already passed
the Senate as amended and was setting on the table in the House.)  

Now is where we come to the part about the games played by the House sponsor –
Rep. Goins.  He had the amendment the Senate had put on the bill.  This amendment
did away with the dollars part of the fiscal note.  He also had letters and other
documentation that would have done away with the unquantifiable part of the
fiscal note.  He could have introduced the amendment during Civil Justice
committee hearings which would have removed the fiscal note but he choose
not to so he could provide leverage with the other bill he absolutely needed
passed.  So when the Civil Justice committee passed the bill they had no choice
but to send it to Finance, Ways & Means and, since the Governor had not
budgeted this money, FW&M had no choice but to put the bill “behind the budget.”  
Even at this time the bill was not dead.  There was sufficient interest to get it
passed and Chairman Sargent, chairman of FW&M full committee had assured
us the bill would come out but it had to wait ‘behind the budge.’  If it had came
out of committee, there were  sufficient votes to have it passed on the floor.  
But then comes along the TFA and their “open carry” bill – HB2409 / SB2424.  
Senator Beavers, the Senate sponsor, did a masterful job of getting the bill
passed by the Judiciary Committee and everyone almost crapped their pants
when she got it passed on the Senate floor.  That to me was a stroke of genius
on the Senate’s part.  They knew the bill was a hot potato but by passing it and
sending it to the House they can all say “we supported gun legislation” and the
House would be the ones to take the bullet.  Well the House took the bullet.  
But by then the “open carry” legislation had so corrupted the environment of gun
legislation in total that even Chairman Sargent could not bring the “guns in parks”
bill up and then it also died.  Had the “guns in parks” legislation came out of
committee when it was first scheduled it would have missed all of this turmoil and
corrupt atmospheres and would have been passed legislation today.  But then again,
if a frog had wings he wouldn’t bust his butt would he?

So in the end the House rules on fiscal notes, the sponsor’s games, the TFA’s
posturing and the Governor’s push  all killed the “Guns in Parks.”

You may have been dazzled by the TN Legislature intrigue and subterfuge initially.  But, this has surely been a maturing and learning experience.  The consequences of the failure of this bill affect me personally so I may be somewhat biased.  Thanks again for your efforts to look inside the legislature and their maneuvers.  I hope you will be willing to charge up the hill again next year.  Hopefully Goins and Campfield will be the wiser next year also.

I have learned a lesson on how TN legislators, governors, and lobbyists can maneuver and hide their intent from their constituents.  I have an idea they have that action fine tuned.

In the meantime let's continue to hammer on the legislators and Governor through town meetings, letters to the editors, etc.  2A rights and the right of self-protection in parks are not for playing games.  

Woman's baby shot dead in stroller in Brunswick GA.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/23/mother-of-baby-shot-dead-speaks-out-in-heartbreaking-interview-he-must-have-died-instantly/

IMO, Leonard Embody is complicit with his bizzare behavior around Nashville, and may have the blood of attacked soccer mom's in TN on his hands.
http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-news/gunman-vows-continue-carrying-ak-47-parks

I think it would help between now and then to marshal all the Tennessee Firearms Rights organizations and the NRA and pick out two senators and two representatives to originate and push all firearm related bills.  That way, when somebody like Mae Beavers comes out of left field with a "Open Carry for All" bill at the last minute, we would know we were being spoofed.

You raise some very good points and thank you for your kind words.

Yes, this has been an educational and maturing experience.  I don't think that four
years at any university could compare to what I've learned this year in the way of
experience.  As far as next year goes I am going to charge up that hill again, the
good Lord willing and the creeks don't rise.  At a minimum Sections 39-17-1309,
39-17-1311 and 39-17-1313 will be targets for legislation I will be working on this
summer.  There may well be others but this is a guaranteed minimum.

We should continue to meet in our districts with the current and future legislators
to discuss our 2A rights and to promote constitutional carry for all Tennesseans.
We MUST emphasize our right to self-protection in all areas, not just parks.

The desire for a unified front from the "gun community" is the same desire as
presented by Speaker Harwell in a meeting just this past week.  We attempted to
do that this year but unfortunately both the TFA and the NRA think their poop
doesn't stink and waited until the very last minute to present their agendas.
This caused turmoil on all fronts and adversely impacted where we could get
good legislation, i.e. the "guns in parks" bill, passed and into law.  They were
heard because they are important players in this arena but they were not on
the same page.  I think they (or at least part of them) see things differently
now but with the TFA's current posturing like Sherman's march to the sea
I don't think that may change.

My climb up the hill will start in July.

Given the Governor's opposition, is there a chance this could be law in time for the NRA convention next year?

Should be a shoo-in eh? What with Bill being a MAIG member, oops I mean, lifetime NRA-er.  Riiiggghhhht.

I'm just hoping he signs the carry in vehicle law first -- after all, that's the first true firearm freedom law that has been passed since carry became illegal in the first place.

- OS

That's the game plan.

First of all... Happy Easter to you all.  

(Except for those of you who do not believe in this day and those reported events -
then I wish for you a Happy April 20th.)

I am going to throw this out for discussion.  Let's see where the discussion takes us.

Tennessee Code Annotated Section 39-17-1309 does NOT restrict handgun
carry permit holders from carrying while in parks and other non-school related areas while
school children are present at a school function such as a field trip or soccer practice.

After careful analysis of the language of subsections (b)(1) and (c)(1) the code does
restrict us from carrying on school recreation areas but parks are not school parks -
they are public parks owned by the city being used by schools for recreational or
educational purposes.  Thus we are not prevented from being in the park with our
handgun provided we have our HCP.

That seems like a reasonable common sense reading of the law. I'm not a lawyer though. And I think it will be up for interpretation until a court ruling or state attorney general statement clarifies it. I'd rather see a bill that fixes it instead of leaving it up to a judge.

Oh, and Happy Easter.

Umm,  "....or any other property owned, used or operated by ...."


- OS

So I am assuming you are referring to the words which you have shown in bold type.

OK.

What is this "other property" used for?

Recreation, for one thing. In public parks. Hence the AG's opinion on it:

http://www.tn.gov/attorneygeneral/op/2009/op/op129.pdf

- OS

First let me say I am not a lawyer, this is simply my interpretation of what I read.

When the Attorney General says in his opinion:



and uses the following in his analysis:



I believe he may be wrong.  When you see the words athletic fields or recreation
area in the statute they are prefaced with the word "school" such that they are
“school campus” or “school grounds” or “school recreation area” or “school athletic
field.”  Implying something owned by the school for the direct involvement of the
students education.  The same will hold true for a building or bus.  These two
words are prefaced with the word “school” such that they are “school building”
or “school bus” not just any public building or public bus.

When you see the words “any other property” they are tied through ownership,
operation or use by various educational administrative groups to property used
for the administration of the educational institution.  In other words – a school
district’s administration building that is not located in or on a school or its grounds.

In the first part of his opinion the AG says there is nothing in the statutes that
prevent a school from using a park or recreational field where handgun permit
holders are permitted to possess firearms except his interpretation of 39-17-1309.  
I think he totally took the “used” part out of context and applied it to all recreational
fields which is not included in the actual statute.

Could be. Just his opinion. But of course prosecutors around the state pay attention to them.

Thing is, I know of no one charged with 1309 violation for this ever, and my home forum keeps out a pretty good eye for the legal stuff such as this. So case law might well prove differently if it happens.

The AG also opined that you could be prosecuted and convicted for carry in a prohibited park even if no signs were present at all! And park signage under 1311 actually prescribes the minimum size and exact wording, unlike the more general terms in 1359!

One point about the signage laws: folks are fond of saying, "oh, those signs aren't legal". Note that the statutes do not state that you can NOT be convicted for carrying past statutorily non-conforming signage. Contrast this with the federal statute regarding weapons in federal facilities, which indeed DOES state that.

Meaning, case law would have to decide. You carry past a sign that just says "No Guns" at a store or park and get charged with a 1359 (general posting) or 1311 (park posting)  violation, the judge says "hey, the intent was clear whether the wording was compliant with statute or not", then you've got a test case if you have deep enough pockets to pursue it up the ladder.  

Btw, we've also not found a for sure case of anyone being convicted for 1359 violation, but there have been a  few surface for 1311 (carrying in prohibited parks). One I remember, the idiot actually discharged his pistol in a Nashville or Memphis park, so he was charged with several things.

etc.

- OS

http://trib.com/news/state-and-regional/police-laramie-county-woman-shot-attacking-pit-bull/article_259cbd0d-a6a0-5230-aac2-9558a93cd33f.html

Wyoming Land Shark owners should move to TN ( [ETA] and Georgia Hood Rats).  The lady who protected her Golden Retriever would not be able to conceal carry while walking her dog in TN parks ( [ETA] except for a few remote state owned parks).

?? Carry with permit in local parks is legal by default, and there are indeed numerous cities and counties around the state which did not opt out,  where one may legally conceal or open carry.

What is the "[ETA]" you mentioned twice?

- OS

To make the statement conform with what you just stated above.  And, there are indeed numerous cities and counties around the state which DID OPT OUT.  Some did not even have to do anything as they were grandfathered into the OPT OUT status if they had local ordinances on the books, before the new TN law.

Still don't know what ETA stands for, so that's why I didn't get it.

Well, the grandfathered part seems will have evaporated any day now, so at least those cities/counties will have to take direct action; maybe some won't due to their present city or county council makeup.

- OS

[ETA]   means Edited To Add.  

I also hope that the grandfather clause will evaporate.  At least, it will give the current municipal governments a chance to go on the record and show where they really stand.  On the other hand they could use the Obama / Holder tactic and delay, delay, delay, thus cover their real intent until the next state legislature session.

My wife works for Hamilton County Parks and Recreation. I know all too well exactly where these dipshits stand. And it's not with us.

 


 

I am sure it is the same in Davidson County, Knox County, and Shelby County.

I am not giving up.  I still have visions of this incident occurring again, when the perps realize they are the only ones carrying in parks.
www.cnn.com/2013/03/22/us/georgia-baby-killed/

It already has.

- OS

Quoted:
Sadness for that little girl and her family who must help her past this. As for the pitbulls, all I can say is, I have seen good and I have seen bad but this speaks volumes for our 2nd Amendment rights. We have a right to defend ourselves from any attacker whether they be two legged or four legged.


Not here in TN. If you are in a posted (very small sign) park in one of our metro areas here in TN, you are NOT permitted to carry concealed or open to protect you or your loved ones from such attacks. Instead you get $2500 fine and 11 mo. in Club TN.

The dorks in TN legislature and Gov office have the blood of innocents like this on their hands. You are allowed a metal walking stick, a stun gun, a pepper spray, and up to a 4" folder. Of course this makes it more sporting for these land sharks.

Read more:http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1632131_.html

I thought the knife restrictions were removed.

Prayers to the little girl for a full recovery.

All the park and parking lot gun restrictions need to be removed.

Doesn't take effect until next month, if I'm not mistaken.

Yep, July 1. It will also be legal to have a loaded, chambered firearm (not just a handgun) in your car without a permit that day.

Thanks.



oh really? That is a good move. Still need the parking lot and parks restrictions removed, but a good move.

Yep. http://www.tn.gov/sos/acts/108/pub/pc0870.pdf

You know that with a permit, they already are removed, even for schools, right?

- OS

I should have been more clear. The part about getting fired for a gun in the car should be removed.

OK for a gun can in the car at schools as long as it isn't handled.

1. There's nothing about getting fired in 39-17-1313. What good would it really do, since this is an employment-at-will state?  Short of employment contract, can be terminated for any reason or no reason.

2. There's nothing that forbids handling the firearm in 39-27-1313, just must be "kept from ordinary observation if the permit holder is in the motor vehicle"

- OS