I have a question about local LEs checking (in this case, an AR) for barrel length. Yesterday, I was stopped for my "brake lights not working", as I'm talking to the officer he sees my AR15 in the overhead gun rack. He proceeds to ask me how long the barrel is. I tell him it is a factory built rifle, with a 16" barrel. For some reason he did not believe me, and said "looks short". I assured him it was all legal, and offered for him to measure if he didn't believe me (I'm not one to make their job harder, even if he's being a prick). He declined, and said he could, but wasn't going to, and sent me on my way.

Question 1 - Do local LEOs have the right/authority (whatever you want to call it), to randomly measure barrels?

What if it is a 14.5" with pinned/welded muzzle device and he couldn't easily see that it is pinned (my last one was nearly impossible to tell), can they try to unscrew the flash hider?

Question 2 - If the officer wanted to check, and you declined to let them, could they confiscate the weapon until it is cleared?

Question 3 - Have any of you, either out shooting or during a traffic stop, ever had barrel length checked?

Don't have this problem.

My stuff is stamped.

Round here they'd ask if they could shoot it.

Never had that issue.  Plus,  measuring the outside of the barrel wouldn't be proper,  they'd need to stick a rod down the bore and Mark,  measure the length at the end.  

Finslayer83, I just read your thread about testing a psa rifle,  wondered about if you've shot it much since.  Seemed to be doing well for you approaching 7k rounds.  Feel free to pm me instead of replying here,  rather not pull a hijack.

1. Its federal law, so the argument could be made for "Yes." if he believed that it was an illegal firearm, although the way it happened in your scenario is weird. And not randomly. LE wouldn't just walk down the line at a range measuring everyone's barrels.

2. That would be a poor move on his part (confiscation). Obviously it varies from dept to dept, but I can tell you our legal advisors would NOT allow us to do that in the situation you described.

3. No.

I'll take a stab at this one and I'm no lawyer so YMMV and I don't take into consideration state laws.

1. Do they have probable cause to do so is the first question, it's all circumstancal based really on each individual situation. Secondly are they trained to measure them to the ATF standard? This would be some crucial information in court should you be arrested.

2. Depends on the officer and situation at hand. If your following the law other than speeding or what ever you did to start the contact and they want to measure the barrel length would that not be a search? IIRC one can not search without permission or a judges order unless it's incident to an arrest. If it's not in your immediate area when arrested or the rifle is not part of the reason for the non arrest contact could they in theory take control of the rifle for safety reasons? I'm sure that is resonable, but other than take control of it and unload it for their safety and give it back to you unless it meets reasonable suspicion and they can articulate it in a report they really have not standing to measure the length. An example; If they are a trained police officer with a 16" M4 clone in their car and they want to measure the barrel length on your identical type rifle that's a stretch and probably could be thrown out because how can that trained police officer articulate reasonable suspicion of a short barreld rifle when he has a similar rifle in his car?

3. I have not personally been asked, but when I was a military cop if some one said to me I'm taking my gun to the skeet range or my house from what ever activity at the gate I would simply ask if they registered it with the base. I've had a state trooper tell me if he sees a gun on the seat and your just getting pulled over for a traffic infraction he would ask for it but if you don't consent he's done with that and goes about his business. Basically it's officer discretion for the most part however unless they are fishing, have hard on for gun owners or bored no one is going care and don't want to bother with that shit beyond making it safe for them.

Like I said I'm not a lawyer but sounds like a fishing expedition or maybe a directive from the brass to check out anything firearm related with a microscope.

Officer Friendly just wanted to see if you'd sweat answering his question; just as he might if he saw some vitamins and asked if they were prescription, or that your iced tea looked a bit 'too dark' to not be a beer.

Standard interrogation technique, no biggie.

Thanks.

All those replies sound reasonable.

I also want to clarify, I do NOT have any illegal firearms of any kind, so there is no worry about getting in any trouble, but simply the hassle. After our short little talk about it, nothing more was said about the rifle. It was clearly without a mag, and when he first approached I advised him I was carrying a pistol.

A 14.5"barrel with a FH most LEOs wouldn;t notice it..Im a former prosecutor and now defense attorney. Here in Texas state law is the same for barrel lengths (federal registration is a defense). Most LEOs wouldn't take notice unless it was really short like 10, 12 inches

In Oregon?  Really?

Oh you have to share what agency - "Looks short".  I sorry to say some LE are "lumps" on traffic stops.  You did everything right.  Did he "Rip-ya"?

It was good ol' Portland PD. from the looks of the officer, he didn't even look like he'd know the first thing about an AR.

You'd be pretty surprised what some folks know about AR's regardless of their "looks", or what they "look" like! Sounds to me like the LEO got a glimpse of it, and just wanted to make sure you weren't one of these cop killers we're currently plagued with across the country. IMO completely justified!

To the LEO you probably don't "look" like you know the first thing about an AR.

For what it's worth, in my neck of the woods, calmly and rationally informing the higher ups following being hassled for a legal activity will generally get that officer some sort of talking to.

FPNI.


Made some lifelong friends, Facebook stalk them and shoot them a message.


Worked for me.

Dont keep weapons in plain sight.

I would have grabbed my tape measure :)



Must suck not leaving the state at will



Agreed

Yep, reasonable suspicion covers a lot of ground.
A court would also probably look at how much of an impact a quick measurement would be on your time and freedom of movement on down the street.
I suspect it would be deemed a very slight infringement and not out of  the boundaries of usual street questioning and investigation during a stop.

I had a holstered pre 1899 revolver replica inspected by a LEO before an open carry walk.( I was carrying a rifle too)
I later asked a gun law attorney if that was legal and justified since that type of handgun is not a firearm and their was no way the officer could have determined if it was illegal at a distance while holstered.
The attorney said that the LEO was within his authority to see if I was carrying  a modern handgun or not.
Come Jan 1 the situation will change because we have won back the right to open carry all handguns if licensed.
Now we just have to put up with being stopped to show our "government permission slip"
The fight for our rights continues....

No one has any illegal firearms of any kind. Something something 2nd or something.  Pretty annoying that the government has grown men who's rights are inalienable worried about something that is illegal when it isn't.

Sorry. Rant/thread high jack off.

And you would have measured incorrectly, if that's all you have.

It's called a 5320.20. That argument is lame.

Only if it's filled out and kept current annually. It's basically a privileged permission slip. How that became a Man Card is something I've yet to comprehend - giving up our rights and then begging permission to exercise them looks lame to some of us. Having to be investigated to own a firearm is exactly what the anti gunners want - and yet some think it's a token of status.

You could have build a pistol  - same gun sans stock. No stamp, no hall pass, no trust, no legal workarounds, etc etc etc.

In either case, I would NOT leave the weapon where it can be seen. That may work in your area - it used to be common in mine. No longer. People steal stuff, and the perps are now focusing on parking lots where they know you and I can't take in weapons.

Cops are now trained and many are skilled at asking questions that put the citizen in a bad light to see how they react. I don't like it but there it is - they have to sort out the sheep and goats pretty quick. No point in getting into a locker room measuring contest in public.

Save that for then internet where a complying with anti 2A laws is considered a virtue.

I've been an LEO for over 29 years so I'm pretty sure of my facts here. Taking property from your vehicle without your consent for the purposes of measuring the barrel sounds like a search to me and that requires Probable Cause. If the gun had an obviously short barrel then the officer would be in good shape to measure it. (Of course he should ask for if you possess a legal SBR first before he starts measuring things). If it just "looks short" then he needs to be able to explain what that means and unless he's got a bionic eye that can measure something at a distance then he's on very shaky ground.
It sound like he was either (are previously mentioned) just asking to see how you answered the question versus really wanting to measure the gun or he doesn't know much about firearms. I've found over the years that there are cops who are "gun guys" who hang out on forums like this and generally know a lot about firearms; and then there are those cops who basically know a little about the guns they carry and that's it. I've found that the former group is the clear minority. Most cops fall in the latter group, especially when you are talking about a large department. I would also echo what others have said and I would not carry a rifle in plain view even if legal. It invites too much scrutiny and not just from the police.

This.
Most days I'd probably decline and be willing to take a ride over it.
That said, I have stamps for "short looking" guns.

My one and only experience with this was with the DNR.  Somehow they got wind that I harvested a deer with a 300BLK AR-15 pistol, which is 100% legal in Indiana.   I got a call from the local CO and he asked if he could stop by and ask me a few questions about reports of an illegal hunter.  Since we had some issues that year with trespassing and stolen tree stands on our property, and the fact that I had no reason to think I had done anything wrong, I told him to stop on by and I'd be happy to talk to him.

He came to the front door and I invited him in the house and asked if he wanted a cup of coffee or something to drink since it was cold outside.  He politely declined and said he'd prefer if we talked outside. I thought it was a bit odd given the temperature, but told him that was fine, and that I'd grab my shoes and coat and be right out.   I head out and he says he wanted to ask me a few questions, and since it was so cold, minded if we hopped into his truck, since it was running and warm.   I'm still thinking everything is on the up and up, and being a nice guy said "sure, no sense in standing out in the cold."  (even thought that's why I had invited him into the house in the first place.

To make a long story short, he told me I was the one that he suspected of illegal hunting for using an AR-15 to hunt deer.  I explained to him that what I used met all of the requirements set forth in the state code for hunting weapons.  He said "you certainly know the law very well" but then asked if I could produce said weapon.  I asked why and he said that he needed to confirm I was in compliance.   I brought it out to him, and he did measure it for OAL, etc. to see if it met the requirements for a pistol (which it did).  However, he did not know how to properly measure the barrel length nor did he subtract the length of the non-permanently attached muzzle device.

My point to you OP is that some can and will try to measure it, but probably won't have proper tools.  I would say that most are actually just fishing to see how you will respond, to see if there is more reason to question you for other things.

A range officer (sheriff) tried to jam me up a couple of months back with my carbine. Walked up and said "How long is that barrel? It looks short". It's a Colt 6520 barrel, and actually looks too long to me. Once I told him that it was a 16", he walked away. I found the whole situation funny. My guess was that looking at me, he either figured that I didn't know what I was shooting, or that I looked like someone who would intentionally have short barrel without a stamp.

1: Probably.  All Ive ever seen done was an NCIC check on the SN.

1.5: Probably not?

2: If they had PC.  At that point they'd probably arrest you too.

3: Never had a barrel length checked.  Never checked a barrel length.



Will be interested to see what the more experienced officers say.  
 

FWIW, Idaho, Kansas & Alaska passed laws recently making it a misdemeanor for state, county or city cops from enforcing any Federal gun laws within their state.

Here in Idaho local law enforcement cannot even ask about your firearms (UNLESS THEY ARE OR HAVE BEEN USED FOR CRIMINAL ACTIVITY) let alone try and enforce any federal gun laws for fear of a criminal misdemeanor conviction and $1000 fine.

More and more states are expected to follow.

link

Officer-"Looks short"'
You -"That's what she said."

When I worked for a rural Police Department we got calls all the time of guys shooting guns out in the country. I would go check on it. I never measured barrels or any of that stuff. Walked up to the fence talked to the owners made sure they had a good backstop, that's it. The thing is I always knew them because I started in my home town as a Police Officer.

Some people freak out about guys with guns even some cops. I take it in stride as I was raised around them my whole life.

I doubt it, he's in Tennessee

It could be that the officer wasn't familiar with the longer hand guards that are common now on many AR's. For example, if the OP had a 16 in barrel with a 14 inch hand guard, it would probably look short compared to a 16 inch barrel with a 9 inch hand guard, if that was the common set-up that the officer was familiar with. Overall, it sounds like general purpose questions for a traffic stop, especially since the OP told the officer that he was carrying and there were additional visible firearms.

Question 1 - Do local LEOs have the right/authority (whatever you want to call it), to randomly measure barrels?
Here in South Carolina there are state laws prohibiting you from possessing a "sawed-off rifle" which the state defines as being rifles with barrels less than 16i n in length. I'm not sure who promulgates the test method under state law, most local LEOs aren't empowered to enforce federal laws, but can certainly enforce the state law. Section 16-23-220 of the SC Code of Laws specifically covers "Unlawful transportation of machine gun, military firearm, or sawed-off shotgun or rifle within State." which would seem to fall squarely into the realm of traffic stopdom.

What if it is a 14.5" with pinned/welded muzzle device and he couldn't easily see that it is pinned (my last one was nearly impossible to tell), can they try to unscrew the flash hider?
I don't see why not particularly since the SC state statute makes no mention of an exception for pinned and welded flash hiders...

Question 2 - If the officer wanted to check, and you declined to let them, could they confiscate the weapon until it is cleared?
I think like anything else what the officer "wants" to do and "has probable cause" to do are two different things and that would be the deciding factor on the legality of the confiscation.

Question 3 - Have any of you, either out shooting or during a traffic stop, ever had barrel length checked?
Nope, never ever.

I think some people are getting wrapped around the axle for what constitutes a valid test of barrel length. Put it this way, most officers are not able to prove definitively that the little bag of white powder in your pocket is cocaine, but I don't think many folks doubt that they can arrest you, seize your bag of powder, and THEN send it to the lab.

Refer to ORS 166.272



So you're answer to question 1 is yes. It would have to be based on reasonable suspicion("looks short"). As far as checking permanently attached muzzle devices goes I think it's a gray area that more likely than not has never even been explored at the state level.

As far as question 2 is concerned, the answer is yes but I would opine only for the length of time it would reasonably take to determine the length of the barrel.

Couldn't answer question 3 for you.

Since when do states get to enforce federal laws?

I'm not sure if this is a serious question.

I know a lot of people say things like "if you're not breaking the law, why are you worried", or "if you don't have anything to hide, let the cops search"
Well please remember: the incident at Ruby Ridge was all started by a MIS-measurement of a shotgun barrel. That's right, the barrel was over 18", but a mistake in measureing (fireing pin protucion, IIRC) made the ATF go after Randy Weaver for a SBS.