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Posted: 1/11/2017 6:21:33 PM EDT
Some of you may remember when I built my pistol;
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_32/481456_How-much-does-it-cost-to-complete-a-stripped-lower---Now-a-pistol-build-thread--Done-Video-Pg7.html Then a year later it quit working properly; http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_32/527464_Boom--FTF--Boom--FTE--Boom--stovepipe----AKA-AR-pistol-drama.html I couldn't figure anything out, so it sat in the safe for a long time without being fired. When the 2016 alternative deer season was approaching, I took the upper off and replaced it with the 20" from my Bushmaster XM15E2S. With that upper, it functioned flawlessly. That means the problem is in the 7.5" upper. Today I put the 7.5" upper back on the pistol lower, and tried it again. It jammed, just like before. I swapped BCGs with the Bushmaster, and it still jammed the same. (Fire one shot, extract the shell just enough to sit on top of the next one that it was trying to feed). Next I removed the mag, and just dropped one shell in. (I did this twice, with the Bushmaster BGC in it). Both times, it failed to extract the shell at all. I would then pull the charging handle, and it flipped the shells right out. Next I tried to load it from the mags again. When the top round was on the left, it would load, but when the top round was on the right it would jamb the bullet tip against the receiver. (The barrel has M4 feed ramps, but the receiver doesn't). The problem is narrowed to the upper, but I still can't figure it out. |
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When was the last time you cleaned the gun? Sounds somewhat under gassed. Maybe check the gas block for corrosion or if it's not lined up correctly. also may be an issue with the recoil spring/ buffer assembly. Works fine for one set up, won't for another. Also have all these issues been with the same ammo and mags?
Edit: Annnndddd beat by 10 minutes. It's hard to be on here at work sometimes |
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I haven't cleaned it recently, but it also sat unfired for about a year. If I had to guess, there's been maybe 200 to 300 rounds fired through it altogether. I don't think it's an extractor problem, because it happened with two different BCGs, but obviously I don't know all that much. I don't know how to adjust the gas system, etc.
I've actually thought about just selling the complete upper, but I'd have to take such a big loss on it (especially with it not working properly). Maybe I should just part it out. |
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I haven't cleaned it recently, but it also sat unfired for about a year. If I had to guess, there's been maybe 200 to 300 rounds fired through it altogether. I don't think it's an extractor problem, because it happened with two different BCGs, but obviously I don't know all that much. I don't know how to adjust the gas system, etc. I've actually thought about just selling the complete upper, but I'd have to take such a big loss on it (especially with it not working properly). Maybe I should just part it out. View Quote The easiest way would be to figure out which gas port size the gas block and barrel have (should be listed on who ever's website made the parts). If the sizes don't match up that would more than likely be your problem there. You maybe could drill out the port on the smaller one to match the bigger port, but I would contact a gunsmith about that before I started dragging out the power tools. Back to the buffer and spring assembly, I don't know if I'm right on this, but this could cause the extractor problem, with 2 different bolts, because it would not be coming forward hard enough to make the back of the case seat fully into the actual bolt. Again this could also be a gas issue. Not enough gas not, enough mass going back and fourth. I hope that made sense. |
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The easiest way would be to figure out which gas port size the gas block and barrel have (should be listed on who ever's website made the parts). If the sizes don't match up that would more than likely be your problem there. You maybe could drill out the port on the smaller one to match the bigger port, but I would contact a gunsmith about that before I started dragging out the power tools. Back to the buffer and spring assembly, I don't know if I'm right on this, but this could cause the extractor problem, with 2 different bolts, because it would not be coming forward hard enough to make the back of the case seat fully into the actual bolt. Again this could also be a gas issue. Not enough gas not, enough mass going back and fourth. I hope that made sense. View Quote The only size I saw listed on the two items was .750 Here's the barrel info; Quoted: 7.5" Chrome moly barrel •1-9 twist 5.56 Nato chamber •.750 gas block area •Heat Treated •Air Gauged •Has M4 feed ramps •Stripped barrel with extension & gas port drilled •1/2x28 thread pattern $159 - $119 Sale ends 4/30/12 All NFA rules apply. Check your local laws before purchasing this barrel. Alpha Shooting Sports Will not be responsible for misuse of this barrel. Legal for use on properly registered AR pistols." The FSB isn't listed anymore, but I remember that being the same. I still think if the buffer and spring were a problem, the 20" upper wouldn't have worked either. |
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Put one round in a mag and shoot it to see if the bolt locks back, it's probably a gas or a buffer issue.
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Might want to check the hammer spring installation as well, it could be backwards. That wouldn't normally be the problem you're experiencing, but you never know.
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This may sound dumb but........Is it dry? I've had this happen in a match once. Now I run my 3 gun rifle dripping with oil. Even in the buffer tube. I'm talking Exxon Valdez oiled
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You tried it with a different lower so it's not in the lower. I didn't suspect it was, it seems to me you have a gas problem.
Is your gas block pinned or notched? Is your gas block exposed? If not make sure your gas block hasn't moved. While you have it off make sure your port and gas tube are clear of debris. Also with that short of barrel, I would make sure your gas port is opened up enough. How many rounds did you shoot before the malfunctions started happening? |
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I have seen this issue before and was found to be a tight chamber. Did the barrel/bolt headspace properly when built? Any excess carbon build up on the chamber?
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I could be wrong, but I still think its one of three things.
1. Buffer/Spring Combo (possible not heavy enough) 2. Gas system issue (seems like it could be over gassed, not under) 3. Extractor issues (not gripping and pulling back spent case far enough to extract, then trying too feed the next round with spent case still in there) Curious now, Interested too see the resolution. By now, I'm sure its well cleaned and lubed. I don't recall the trying of several types of ammo to see if any differences. Just remember, seeing mention of steel case... I myself have never had issues with it, but I've heard some people say their ARs don't work with it well. |
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Put one round in a mag and shoot it to see if the bolt locks back, it's probably a gas or a buffer issue. View Quote I did that twice, earlier today, and it locked back both times. Attached File |
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Might want to check the hammer spring installation as well, it could be backwards. That wouldn't normally be the problem you're experiencing, but you never know. View Quote Attached File Attached File |
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This may sound dumb but........Is it dry? I've had this happen in a match once. Now I run my 3 gun rifle dripping with oil. Even in the buffer tube. I'm talking Exxon Valdez oiled View Quote Right now I'd call it lightly oiled, but I've tried it drier and also wet. Not dripping wet, but sprayed down and only wiped the outside. |
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Is your gas block pinned or notched? Is your gas block exposed? If not make sure your gas block hasn't moved. While you have it off make sure your port and gas tube are clear of debris. Also with that short of barrel, I would make sure your gas port is opened up enough. How many rounds did you shoot before the malfunctions started happening? View Quote It's a clamp-on FSB, and I haven't removed it since it was first installed. I am hesitant to take it apart, because my skills are low and I worry about scratching everything up. I'll do it if I have to, but I'm trying to hold off until I really have to do it. I'd guess that about 80 rounds were fired, before this problem started. Attached File |
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I have seen this issue before and was found to be a tight chamber. Did the barrel/bolt headspace properly when built? Any excess carbon build up on the chamber? View Quote I don't have gauges, so I can't answer that precisely; I just worked several rounds through the action, then went outside and started shooting. The chamber looks fine to me, but today I'm going to clean the whole gun before taking any more test shots. I'll leave it wet, as Jeremy suggested, when I shoot it again. |
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I could be wrong, but I still think its one of three things. 1. Buffer/Spring Combo (possible not heavy enough) 2. Gas system issue (seems like it could be over gassed, not under) 3. Extractor issues (not gripping and pulling back spent case far enough to extract, then trying too feed the next round with spent case still in there) Curious now, Interested too see the resolution. By now, I'm sure its well cleaned and lubed. I don't recall the trying of several types of ammo to see if any differences. Just remember, seeing mention of steel case... I myself have never had issues with it, but I've heard some people say their ARs don't work with it well. View Quote 1. The lower functioned my 20" upper just fine, so I think the lower is OK. 2. I am clueless. 3. Same thing happened with two BCGs, so I think that rules out the extractor. I'm going to clean the whole thing today, before any more function test shooting. Originally I was only shooting a few different types of brass rounds, but later started shooting steel too. The problem started while shooting brass case ammo, and has continued while shooting the steel cased. |
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I appreciate all the help, and I hope I'm answering the questions well enough.
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I don't know if it is the way the picture is or what, but the photo of the lower does appear to have the hammer spring installed backwards. I am not going to swear to it but that may have something to do with it as well.
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Hmmmm, looking at various images, some say the legs going under is wrong and others say the legs going over is wrong. 50/50 chance I have it right.
If it were a problem, wouldn't it have showed up with the 20" upper also? If the lower was the problem, that should mean the problem goes with the lower rather than the upper. I wish I had another pistol lower or SBR lower to try my upper on. |
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View Quote Even though the goofy buffer and spring are Hung off the back of the lower in the ""Buffer Tube", they work in relation with the gas system and barrel of that shorty upper or whatever is on it at the time. So even if your lower is a 100% in spec, perfect no issue lower; one upper/Barrel length/Gas system may have issues with said buffer/spring, (say a short Pistol Upper) where as a longer barreled, longer gas systemed upper (say your 20') may work 100% fine... 2. I am clueless. Na, tweaking and finding the right combo/fit of these things can just get frustrating sometimes... 3. Same thing happened with two BCGs, so I think that rules out the extractor. Most likely you are right, but still possible... When we run these shorter barrels they can get real quirky and introduce all kinds of shenanigans... I'm going to clean the whole thing today, before any more function test shooting. Originally I was only shooting a few different types of brass rounds, but later started shooting steel too. The problem started while shooting brass case ammo, and has continued while shooting the steel cased. OK, that solved that one too... :) Between everyone here, we'll get you fixed one way or another... Just don't get irked and bust'er over a stump... :) I've seen an Uncle do this before with a Hunting rifle... |
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Hmmmm, looking at various images, some say the legs going under is wrong and others say the legs going over is wrong. 50/50 chance I have it right. If it were a problem, wouldn't it have showed up with the 20" upper also? If the lower was the problem, that should mean the problem goes with the lower rather than the upper. I wish I had another pistol lower or SBR lower to try my upper on. View Quote Again, I'm sure its a drive, but if it comes too it and you need it, the offer stands... We could also try my BCG, and Spring/Buffer from one of my SBRs... Anyone else closer that could hook'em up??? |
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It's a clamp-on FSB, and I haven't removed it since it was first installed. I am hesitant to take it apart, because my skills are low and I worry about scratching everything up. I'll do it if I have to, but I'm trying to hold off until I really have to do it. I'd guess that about 80 rounds were fired, before this problem started.https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/51036/FSB-124370.JPG View Quote HMMM clamp on GB you say. I'd start there, it's possible that it could have rotated by it being bumped. If you're able, remove your bolt and try to shoot compressed air in the barrel from the muzzle end. See if the flow out of your gas tube is strong. Or you could remove it and reinstall it to be sure. ETA: Also check your alignment, make sure you can see that it's straight. |
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This is the only one I've ever built, but I followed the instructions in the build thread. I believe that I have this done properly. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/51036/20170112-Hammer-Spring-124355.JPGhttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/51036/20170112-135453-124357.JPG View Quote The Hammer Spring is in backwards. Easy to get it on and in backwards. It goes from under to over. You have it over to over. Sometimes they just need the right buffer and spring combo. Make sure your chamber is clean or could be a tight chamber. You'll get it going... just a little frustrating for now. Nice looking pistol though! |
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HMMM clamp on GB you say. I'd start there, it's possible that it could have rotated by it being bumped. If you're able, remove your bolt and try to shoot compressed air in the barrel from the muzzle end. See if the flow out of your gas tube is strong. Or you could remove it and reinstall it to be sure. ETA: Also check your alignment, make sure you can see that it's straight. View Quote It's still straight, and doesn't wiggle/move at all. A friend has an air compressor, so maybe I could take it up there and try checking the air flow sometime. |
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The Hammer Spring is in backwards. Easy to get it on and in backwards. It goes from under to over. You have it over to over. http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag65/meNmyARs/AR%20FCG%20Springs%201.jpg Sometimes they just need the right buffer and spring combo. Make sure your chamber is clean or could be a tight chamber. You'll get it going... just a little frustrating for now. Nice looking pistol though! View Quote Thanks, I'll change that tomorrow. ---------------------------------------------------------- I cleaned it, left it pretty wet inside, then went out and shot it. It functioned properly once, then went back to the same old jamming. Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Good pictures... Is that how it always jams?
You tried the one round in magazine and it locked the bolt back after the round. Did it eject the spent round OK? It locked the bolt back, so I would think you have enough gas pressure and it's picking up the next round from the magazine. Check and make sure the extractor is not wore so it is properly extracting the round. Also check to ejector spring and ejector... push in the ejector in the bolt and make sure it's going in-out and should be stiff. Put a drop of oil in there. It the extractor has an o-ring, remove it and try it without. Also make sure the extractor spring is good. Like Smullen said... and by the looks of your photos, looks like an extraction/ejection issue. Still could be a tight chamber... With a tight chamber could be slowing the extraction of the round, pulling it out of the extractor before being ejected. Hope that all made sense. |
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Good pictures... Is that how it always jams? Yes; empty case, above a live round. You tried the one round in magazine and it locked the bolt back after the round. Did it eject the spent round OK? Yes, they ejected as they should. It locked the bolt back, so I would think you have enough gas pressure and it's picking up the next round from the magazine. Check and make sure the extractor is not wore so it is properly extracting the round. I did that, plus switched BCGs and it didn't change anything. Also check to ejector spring and ejector... push in the ejector in the bolt and make sure it's going in-out and should be stiff. Put a drop of oil in there. I did that too. It the extractor has an o-ring, remove it and try it without. Also make sure the extractor spring is good. I haven't tried that, because I think swapping BCGs essentially eliminates that as the problem. Like Smullen said... and by the looks of your photos, looks like an extraction/ejection issue. Still could be a tight chamber... With a tight chamber could be slowing the extraction of the round, pulling it out of the extractor before being ejected. Hope that all made sense. View Quote |
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Just a couple more ideas... Use brass rounds to trouble check.
Hopefully, someone can come in and read the trouble shooting and be able to figure it out. You had trouble-free rounds at first... So... Two different bolts and it ejects fine on single rounds, so kinda' eliminates possibly an ejector/extractor or tight chamber issue. Make sure the FSB do not get kicked out of alignment, but you would probably have already noticed that. Normally, the gas holes in the bottom of the FSBs are bigger than the gas port hole. Try the air through the gas tube, just to make sure. Make sure the bolt drops into the upper freely and not possibly binding on the gas tube in the receiver, might not be totally straight. Somebody above stated a head pace check... maybe... I'm not good at that kind of stuff. And maybe you said, but what buffer and spring is in it? |
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I will try the compressed air deal, and also check for any hanging while inserting the BCG (though I haven't noticed it).
The buffer and spring are part of a PSA Pistol LPK, pictured in one of the threads linked in the OP. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_32/527464_-ARCHIVED-THREAD----Boom--FTF--Boom--FTE--Boom--stovepipe----AKA-AR-pistol-drama.html&page=2 |
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I changed the hammer spring around, then went outside and test fired again.
I started with the steel case, and once again it completed one cycle and then jammed. Next I tried some brass case, and it fired eight shots without jamming. That makes no sense to me, since the problem originally started with brass, but if it's now a brass-only upper I can live with that. The only problem is that I have only steel case ammo right now. (Those eight rounds were the last of my brass). |
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A few thoughts, you have a can of Rem Oil in the photo, it's better than water as a lubricant BUT NOT BY MUCH! It's too damn thin.
Don't underestimate the importance of an AR needing to be properly lubed, they prefer to be wet, VERY WET! I had a carbine that was iffy shooting .223, but ran 100% on 5.56. Turns out it had a partially obstructed gas port. Gas port is my best guess, either too small, obstructed, or misaligned with the gas block. I'd try several mags of brass 5.56 as a function test. As a cheap effective lube, go to your nearest auto parts store and get a quart of Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic motor oil and lube the hell out of the bolt carrier rails. |
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Brass ammo and thicker lube; got it. It'll be sometime next week though, because the ice is upon us.
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Well, you did say "It's too damn thin."
Maybe Slick 50. I used to put that in a '70 F250 I had. |
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I had a 7.5" upper that did the same thing. The problem (like others have suggested) is that its over gassed. I did the extractor upgrade and went with a heavier buffer. Worked perfect.
Using steel cased ammo wont help any. They are harder to eject than brass. Its over gassed and the extractor is ripping off the rim. |
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If that's true, does that mean it's essentially *unfixable*, other than changing the lower to compensate?
Here's another question; If I give up on this, and decide to sell/part out the upper, what do any of you think I could get for it? |
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If that's true, does that mean it's essentially *unfixable*, other than changing the lower to compensate? Here's another question; If I give up on this, and decide to sell/part out the upper, what do any of you think I could get for it? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
If that's true, does that mean it's essentially *unfixable*, other than changing the lower to compensate? Here's another question; If I give up on this, and decide to sell/part out the upper, what do any of you think I could get for it? Unless I missed something somewhere, there is absolutely nothing wrong with your lower itself... A wrong Buffer weight/Buffer Spring does not mean your lower is bad, if in fact they are the wrong ones... I seriously don't think any of your Hard Parts are bad... Its just figuring out the right combo of some of the innards... I know it gets frustrating.. Quoted:
I had a 7.5" upper that did the same thing. The problem (like others have suggested) is that its over gassed. I did the extractor upgrade and went with a heavier buffer. Worked perfect. Using steel cased ammo wont help any. They are harder to eject than brass. Its over gassed and the extractor is ripping off the rim. |
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Unless I missed something somewhere, there is absolutely nothing wrong with your lower itself... A wrong Buffer weight/Buffer Spring does not mean your lower is bad, if in fact they are the wrong ones... I seriously don't think any of your Hard Parts are bad... Its just figuring out the right combo of some of the innards... I know it gets frustrating.. This is what I was thinking and said happened with mine... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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If that's true, does that mean it's essentially *unfixable*, other than changing the lower to compensate? Here's another question; If I give up on this, and decide to sell/part out the upper, what do any of you think I could get for it? Unless I missed something somewhere, there is absolutely nothing wrong with your lower itself... A wrong Buffer weight/Buffer Spring does not mean your lower is bad, if in fact they are the wrong ones... I seriously don't think any of your Hard Parts are bad... Its just figuring out the right combo of some of the innards... I know it gets frustrating.. Quoted:
I had a 7.5" upper that did the same thing. The problem (like others have suggested) is that its over gassed. I did the extractor upgrade and went with a heavier buffer. Worked perfect. Using steel cased ammo wont help any. They are harder to eject than brass. Its over gassed and the extractor is ripping off the rim. I was saying if the upper is unfixable, I'd have to alter the lower. Since it works with my Bushmaster upper, I don't want to change anything on the lower. I don't know any other way to solve an over-gassed upper, if that's what the problem is. |
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I was saying if the upper is unfixable, I'd have to alter the lower. Since it works with my Bushmaster upper, I don't want to change anything on the lower. I don't know any other way to solve an over-gassed upper, if that's what the problem is. View Quote It's fixable, it just needs tuning. The question is do you want to work at tuning it, or do you want to give up on it. Long story short, all AR's might need some tuning. If you're happy with the gun tune it and get it running. |
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You can tell if it's over gassed pretty easy usually. Look at the spent cases. Are the rims damaged where it is ejecting them?
If they are damaged, then it's probably over gassed and ripping them up while trying to eject. The next problem I've seen is under gassed. Without taking your upper apart, it's a little trickier to figure out. Try plugging the chamber of the barrel, and hold your finger near the gas tube in the receiver while blowing air down the barrel. If you get a good seal, you'll be able to tell if it's flowing freely through or if there is some obstruction. Since the rifle functioned fine for 80 rounds, then started, I'd be willing to bet that the gas block shifted and it's not getting enough gas through. This is the most common issue I've seen in AR pistols. The last issue that I've seen happen is the bolt not going back far enough, or short stroking. I actually had a lower that did this. It worked fine with a rifle length upper, and the pistol upper would lock back on a single round but wouldn't feed multiples very well. If you can, you can try turning your buffer tube back one revolution. I've seen that fix a lot of temperamental AR Pistols too. You seem a little reluctant to tear the upper apart to look over things. That's understandable, but I really recommend it. It gives a much better understanding of how the entire system works. |
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Give us some good pictures of the cases that you pick up when firing. Show us both the primer/case head and the overall case. Is it deforming the cases/bending the rims?
If your pistol is locking back on the magazine follower when you fire/load a single round then it is not under gassed and odds are your upper is over gassed or the chamber is to tight. If the problem is gas this can be fixed with an adjustable gas block, a new barrel with a more correct port size/configuration, or in some limited cases adding more mass to the cycling components. If the chamber is to tight your best option is to warranty it out for a replacement. ARs are very easy to work on and swapping them yourself is an option. |
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"It's fixable, it just needs tuning. The question is do you want to work at tuning it, or do you want to give up on it. Long story short, all AR's might need some tuning. If you're happy with the gun tune it and get it running."
I would like for it to work, but I also want to have trust that it will continue to work properly. I'm not sure I can get back to where I trust it. You can tell if it's over gassed pretty easy usually. Look at the spent cases. Are the rims damaged where it is ejecting them? If they are damaged, then it's probably over gassed and ripping them up while trying to eject. They look fine to me. I'll post a couple pics. The next problem I've seen is under gassed. Without taking your upper apart, it's a little trickier to figure out. Try plugging the chamber of the barrel, and hold your finger near the gas tube in the receiver while blowing air down the barrel. If you get a good seal, you'll be able to tell if it's flowing freely through or if there is some obstruction. I put one of the fired brass shells in there to plug the chamber, put a small piece of TP near the gas tube, then blew through the barrel. The TP blew out of there easily. I'm still going to ask my friend to blast it out with compressed air, but I haven't been to house for a couple weeks. I'll try to do it tonight, or tomorrow. Since the rifle functioned fine for 80 rounds, then started, I'd be willing to bet that the gas block shifted and it's not getting enough gas through. This is the most common issue I've seen in AR pistols. It hasn't moved enough to see or feel, but I don't have the experience to define if it's getting enough gas. The last issue that I've seen happen is the bolt not going back far enough, or short stroking. I actually had a lower that did this. It worked fine with a rifle length upper, and the pistol upper would lock back on a single round but wouldn't feed multiples very well. If you can, you can try turning your buffer tube back one revolution. I've seen that fix a lot of temperamental AR Pistols too. Wouldn't that make it loose all the time? I still hesitate to change a working lower, trying to make one upper work. You seem a little reluctant to tear the upper apart to look over things. That's understandable, but I really recommend it. It gives a much better understanding of how the entire system works. I definitely am. I remember being pushed pretty close to the limits of my skills when I assembled it, so tear-down and reassembly makes me think that's just another chance for me to mess up somehow. I have less strength/grip in my arms and hands now, so dealing with anything tight would be difficult. Attached File Attached File |
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Just took the upper to my friends house, and blasted it out. Good air flow, so I don't think it's blocked.
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When I had a 7.5" barrel on my SBR it didnt like to work with steel case ammo (tula was an absolute no go), cases would stick in the chamber and cause the same issues you're having.
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Almost $500 invested in this upper, and I built an awesome looking paper weight.
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If it's over-gassed, an adjustable gas block would help and there are some available under $100. A heavier buffer & spring are just bandaids on the real problem.
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