I taught a ccw class today and on my way home I needed to stop to get cereal and milk.  I was wearing my red NRA instructor polo tucked in with a kydex belt holster containing my M&P 9mm compact.  I conceal 99% of the time but I did not want to change how I was dressed just to run in and out of the store.  

I got a cart and walked in as usual, did my roughly ten minutes of shopping and checked out.  No one sad a word to me or gave any indication that there was any issue.
While loading my car a customer approached me and asked when MO became an open carry state.  We chatted four a few minutes and he said he was interested in getting his ccw etc.

After I returned my cart another customer was pulling out of his parking spot but stopped, rolled down his window and engaged me in conversation.  He told me he just witnessed the employees having an interesting conversation about whether or not a "non officer" can carry a gun in the store.  I can only assume whomever was in charge decided it was okay since no one asked me to leave or had any conversation regarding the presence of my gun.

Assuming the guy telling me about this was accurate, it sounded like there was no debate regarding the legality but only if it was "allowed".  There was no sign.

I am in that store at least once a week and all the regular cashiers know me.  I will be curious to see if anyone says anything next time I'm in.

ETA:  St. Charles location off Jungermann.

Not that there's anything wrong with OCing, but I probably would've just untucked my shirt as I got out of the car.

The cats out of the bag now.

Some cities have OCing laws, but if your town is good, I see no problem.

Now's a good lesson to teach the store manager about concealed and OC when you return to store that can be passed on down to the employees.

Sounds like my encounters. They see a guy ...with a gun...getting eggs. And nobody dies.

It's good education for them. Good on you!

I had that thought for a moment.  But then I said to myself, screw it, I'm obeying the law and not trying to make a scene, I'm just a guy spending money.

OC restrictions no longer apply if you have a valid ccw.

I assume the same would apply to a non resident with a valid permit?

Yes.  The law does not differentiate between MO resident and non resident.

I would assume reciprocity is needed with another state to do so for out of state CCW in MO?

Given that MO recognizes the CCW permit of every state in the union... Kind of a moot point.

(Except apparently Vermont, and I think that's because they don't issue CCWs.)

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I'm going with this.

Another anecdote-

One Saturday, I stopped in one of the HyVee's in Lees Summit. My firearm was concealed, and my S&W armorer's polo was covered by my jacket. The guy in front of me in line that night was wearing a 2A t-shirt and OCing a Sig. The cashier was visibly nervous, and other people were looking at each other with the "do you see that" look. When Sig guy checked out and walked away, the guy behind me started grumbling about the OCer being an asshole and how he's probably going to shoot himself. I just looked at him, and he looked at me like he was surprised I wasn't agreeing with him.

I've OCd in the woods and on farms, but those are probably the only environments I think I'd do it. It just brings out the stupid in too many people.

You did agree with him.  That is what I see in your statement.  Silence is deadly to freedom.  

Yep ... but I *think* Vermont is the only state that doesn't issue a CCW in any way shape or form. The others that don't require a permit to carry still offer a permit just for this circumstance.

(Or just get a FL/UT permit and call it good.)

They call it an "Enhanced CCW" in some states.  Let's you get through the school zone BS, carry out of state, and/or use it in lieu of the NICS check.

If you wanted to read about it.  State v. Rosenthal

Okay, here is where I violate one of my personal rules. (Don't argue on open carry)

Personally I think it's a BAD idea!

Why? One reason is it makes Joe Public real nervous.

Two, it's the same as wearing a "Banana Republic" khaki vest. To quote my oldest son "it's the shoot me first vest"

If something bad is "going South" where you happen to be, who do think is going to be the first target?

Open carry = bad idea!

To preface, I don't open carry but.


If not me, then who?

Meh...  This thread isn't really about the merits or lack thereof regarding OC.  It's more of an example of me being tired of pussy footing around what some soccer mom thinks in a grocery store.  Quite frankly, I just don't care anymore if someone's sensibilities are ruffled at the sight of me or what may be on my belt.  I'm done trying to make others feel comfortable.  I still however conceal 99.9% of the time, but I'm not going to worry about it when I'm simply running into a store to grab a few things.  Ymmv

As to the repeated claim that someone who chooses to oc will be the first target etc...  I have seen very little in the way of supporting documentation to back up that claim.  And again, I just don't care anymore.

OP is right, the only way to change the public's perception is for OC to be common place.  Will be painful at first but just like every single LIberal ideology that's been shoved down our throats, the general public will eventually swallow and be ok with it.

I recently saw a guy OC'ing in the Osceola cheese store.  I remember thinking how clueless he was.  He obviously wasn't paying attention to his surroundings and I could have taken it away from him so so easily.  I'm sure no bad guy would ever think that.  People like that just stand out and scream for attention.  Concealed carry makes you practically speaking, invisible.  I think it's dumb, but, whatever.

It may seem like common sense that the person open carrying is going to get shot first, but then if we don't look at facts and just use "common sense" arguments, the leftist would beat us to the punch with the "more guns = more crime since its just common sense" argument.

There really is no basis to the whole "shoot me first" deal.  Most criminals are cowards and look for an easy target.  Of course there are exceptions to this.

Even though it is very hard to prove a negative (such as "because a store did not get robbed, it must have been because of the open carriers in the store") there are actual examples out there that do support the theory that criminals will be deterred with a show of force, even if that force is not brought to bear.  

Here is just such an example.  

One notable takeaway from this story is would the place have been robbed if the open carriers had been concealed carrying?  If that is the case (and it seems that way from the facts of the story) then the concealed carriers might have been forced to become involved in a shootout with the "well armed robbery crew" of which the outcome would have been questionable.  

In this instance (and quite possibly many more like it) it appears as if open carry was much more preferable over concealed carry and did not result in a "shoot first" scenario.

Of course YMMV

It's easy to hypothesize different scenarios and there is anecdotal evidence for both camps.    I'll keep mine under wraps in all but rural settings.  Being discreet gives you more options.  But I don't really care what the other guy does.

I agree  . I dont flaunt my pistol I carry it in a retention holster if its cool outside I wear a jacket if not I just go about my buisness  in a normal manner .I recently bought a new jeep and the salesman wanted me to turn sideways so they could get my pistol in the picture I declined but thought it was funny .

Meh to each his own, I carry concealed away from work but if the next guy wants to OC it's not my business

Joe bad guy is going to be focused on what he's doing and looking for cops, not a civilian with a gun. People in Wal Mart don't notice, they are too focused on getting their strawberry d00shes (which I do love. ) to even notice the guy trying on shoes that happens to have a properly holstered pistol on. As much shit as people have hanging off them these days, it don't matter.

I literally saw a guy the other day with 4 cell phones on him  FOUR ! WTF ... I don't ever want to be that impotent.

Wasn't there a guy who got attacked at Wally World by a guy who spotted the guy's gun ?

( Yes.  It is a true story. )




Hey OP.  I think it's great that you stepped into a store, while Open Carrying, and had a positive experience.  

From everything I'm reading, the majority of these positive experiences are with the General Public.
- Out at a restaurant
- Fast food joint
- Getting gas
- etc..

I'm not hearing / reading about those who open carry in deeper relationship scenario's.  Such as:
- At work (in B4 " I do it all the time at THE GUN STORE I work at" )
- On a customer site
- On the Golf course with customers
- At Little Johnny's game

I'll bet there would be a ton of negative experiences associated with those EVERYDAY experiences.

Can you imagine how CEO or Mid-Management people would react if one of their long-time customers took their business elsewhere because an employee showed up at a customer's place OC'ing ?

How about when 60% - 80% of the parents at Johnny's game react negatively and your family is treated like they have Leprosy ?


IMO, there is more to it than being around strangers .

In a lot of ways, I wish we could go back a hundred years or so and have guns put on the same pedestal as insurance and car seats for infants and toddlers.  Then, as a result, a couple-three generations of people would see the firearm as the good and necessary thing that it is.

But we can't do that.

And what it will take for the Soccer Moms and their ilk to calm down about it, is for 30% - 60% of this nation's 'gun community' to commit to OC'ing all day every day for 4 - 6 weeks ( without loosing their jobs ) .

I don't see that happening.

Link

And the guy who tackled him went to jail. "Foster was arrested on a count of battery."

One for work. One for the wife and two for his other girlfriends.

And my point stands.  He WAS a target. Negative experience for the guy who didn't go to jail.

Thanks for the link showing that this sort of thing can and does happen.



FWIW - Here is my post again without the most important part deleted.


The last time I bought these points up, they were ignored as well.

I didn't copy the rest as I was only linking the article that you were referring to. FWIW the guy in that article was NOT OCing. It's against the law in Florida to do so. When he got out of his car he was adjusting himself and the other guy saw the gun and followed him in the Wal-Mart.

The guy attacked at Wally World wasn't even OCing.  His jacket simply flipped up as he was getting out of the car and the douche bag that saw it took it upon himself to attack him.

ETA:  Oops, I missed the post right above thus one saying the same thing.  

The gun caused the guy to be a target.  No rational person could deny that fact.

And as remote of a possibility as that would happen to me, I would be inclined to OC in a situation like the OP described.

But I would never consider carrying in the areas where you are NOT among strangers - as I mentioned in my original post.

What the gun did was nothing. A man went full-retard on a law-abiding citizen that was a CCW permit holder. The guy who tackled him wasn't thinking at all when he did so, or he would have realized what a mistake he was making. The guy who tackled him wasn't a criminal getting ready to rob a store and saw a threat, he saw a guy with a gun period and went stupid suddenly. You can't fix that with laws or anything else.


A criminal with ill-intent would not even see a gun open carried on a civilian as he would be focused on his task at hand, doing harm to others, not sizing up every person he saw. He's focused, has a goal, and isn't even thinking about a civilian with a gun.


This argument is old.

dood.

So... I guess you missed the one where an OCer at Wal-Mart was attacked by a felon in the sporting goods section? Guy picked up a t-ball bat and tried to clobber the OCer from behind while he was helping his kid pick out a ball glove.

I hadn't heard that story either.  Is this the one?  I had to do some quick Googling.

Bearing Arms-Man Attacked In Walmart Won't Open Carry Again

My CCW instructor (a former LEO) advised us that BGs often will want what we're carrying, which is why he advised concealing.  He also advised that situational awareness was the key either way (which is what seemed to save the dude's life in the above story).  I won't weigh in on the actual debate or what I do.  Sorry about keeping the old thread going, though, I just thought the story was interesting...

No, I heard it. So that's one time a mentally ill guy hit someone who happened to be carrying a gun.

I could look up how many CCW holders have killed innocent people to counter, but I'm not arguing over it. I carry my way, you carry yours. I have no problems with that.

I don't have a CCW but have open carried in St. Joe for years in every store and restaurant in town, never leave home without my sidearm.  
Besides a few people asking about it, no problems and the questions have all been very positive.  In fact, one time in the local Wal-Mart, the manager thanked me for carrying.
LEO's have seen me many times, they just nod and go about their business.

Would like to see more discussion of this point.

CCW with no penalty for printing or a shirt that comes untucked is a very handy legal situation.  A best of both worlds in the political sense.

That's just my opinion. YMMV.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/02100007501.html

Firearms legislation preemption by general assembly, exceptions--limitation on civil recovery against firearms or ammunitions manufacturers, when, exception.

21.750. 1. The general assembly hereby occupies and preempts the entire field of legislation touching in any way firearms, components, ammunition and supplies to the complete exclusion of any order, ordinance or regulation by any political subdivision of this state. Any existing or future orders, ordinances or regulations in this field are hereby and shall be null and void except as provided in subsection 3 of this section.

2. No county, city, town, village, municipality, or other political subdivision of this state shall adopt any order, ordinance or regulation concerning in any way the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permit, registration, taxation other than sales and compensating use taxes or other controls on firearms, components, ammunition, and supplies except as provided in subsection 3 of this section.

3. (1) Except as provided in subdivision (2) of this subsection, nothing contained in this section shall prohibit any ordinance of any political subdivision which conforms exactly with any of the provisions of sections 571.010 to 571.070, with appropriate penalty provisions, or which regulates the open carrying of firearms readily capable of lethal use or the discharge of firearms within a jurisdiction, provided such ordinance complies with the provisions of section 252.243. No ordinance shall be construed to preclude the use of a firearm in the defense of person or property, subject to the provisions of chapter 563.

(2) In any jurisdiction in which the open carrying of firearms is prohibited by ordinance, the open carrying of firearms shall not be prohibited in accordance with the following:

(a) Any person with a valid concealed carry endorsement or permit who is open carrying a firearm shall be required to have a valid concealed carry endorsement or permit from this state, or a permit from another state that is recognized by this state, in his or her possession at all times;

(b) Any person open carrying a firearm in such jurisdiction shall display his or her concealed carry endorsement or permit upon demand of a law enforcement officer;

(c) In the absence of any reasonable and articulable suspicion of criminal activity, no person carrying a concealed or unconcealed firearm shall be disarmed or physically restrained by a law enforcement officer unless under arrest; and

(d) Any person who violates this subdivision shall be subject to the penalty provided in section 571.121.

4. The lawful design, marketing, manufacture, distribution, or sale of firearms or ammunition to the public is not an abnormally dangerous activity and does not constitute a public or private nuisance.

5. No county, city, town, village or any other political subdivision nor the state shall bring suit or have any right to recover against any firearms or ammunition manufacturer, trade association or dealer for damages, abatement or injunctive relief resulting from or relating to the lawful design, manufacture, marketing, distribution, or sale of firearms or ammunition to the public. This subsection shall apply to any suit pending as of October 12, 2003, as well as any suit which may be brought in the future. Provided, however, that nothing in this section shall restrict the rights of individual citizens to recover for injury or death caused by the negligent or defective design or manufacture of firearms or ammunition.

6. Nothing in this section shall prevent the state, a county, city, town, village or any other political subdivision from bringing an action against a firearms or ammunition manufacturer or dealer for breach of contract or warranty as to firearms or ammunition purchased by the state or such political subdivision.