Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel

Log In

A valid email is required.
Password is required.
Site Notices
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Joined Aug 2005
  • Posts 370
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Bronze
  • Joined Aug 2005
  • Posts 370
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/15/2010 8:58:32 AM EST
I had a chance to test fire a Sig 516 and took a few photos. Several of us were sufficiently impressed to place early orders for personally owed versions.










Basic
  • Joined Sep 2004
  • Posts 1224
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Neutral Feedback
Basic
  • Joined Sep 2004
  • Posts 1224
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Neutral Feedback
Posted: 5/15/2010 10:35:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/15/2010 10:36:29 AM EST by SUB_MG]
Good looking gun. I had heard at shot show that the new Sig 516 was using several of the features from the LWRCI guns. Can't blame them for copying from the best gas piston gun out there.

What price range are they selling for?

I have always loved the classic Sig 556 with the rail since I shot the 551 and 552. I was going to pick one up but it was priced too close to the LWRCI guns so I passed. I thought about it again when CDNN was closing them out and giving away a 522 if you bought one. That is a hell of a deal. I would love to get the 556 10" pistol and turn it into a SBR also.

Looks like Sig is going to make a big move in the AR market with these.
Basic
  • Joined Dec 2009
  • Posts 74
  • Location USA KS, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Basic
  • Joined Dec 2009
  • Posts 74
  • Location USA KS, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/16/2010 3:28:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/16/2010 3:30:37 AM EST by NOTRIOUS75]
Originally Posted By SUB_MG:
Good looking gun. I had heard at shot show that the new Sig 516 was using several of the features from the LWRCI guns. Can't blame them for copying from the best gas piston gun out there.

What price range are they selling for?

I have always loved the classic Sig 556 with the rail since I shot the 551 and 552. I was going to pick one up but it was priced too close to the LWRCI guns so I passed. I thought about it again when CDNN was closing them out and giving away a 522 if you bought one. That is a hell of a deal. I would love to get the 556 10" pistol and turn it into a SBR also.

Looks like Sig is going to make a big move in the AR market with these.



Actually the gas system looks alot more like the 556 gas system (atleast to me), if it looks like the LWRCi, then I dont see it.... (Not trying to start a 'bigger dick' contest here)

ETA: Its sunday morining i have been up for less than 30 minutes and Ive already sinned... GOD FORGIVE ME FOR COVETING MY NEIGHBOR'S GIRL!! (Even though I dont know who's this is, I REALLY want this!!)
Basic
  • Joined May 2004
  • Posts 5582
  • Location USA MO, USA
Online Positive Feedback
Basic
  • Joined May 2004
  • Posts 5582
  • Location USA MO, USA
Online Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/16/2010 3:32:49 AM EST
I saw these in Sigs new 2010 catalog just the other day. I also really liked the Sig517!
Basic
  • Joined Sep 2004
  • Posts 1226
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Neutral Feedback
Basic
  • Joined Sep 2004
  • Posts 1226
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Neutral Feedback
Posted: 5/16/2010 5:39:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/16/2010 8:08:45 AM EST by SUB_MG]
Originally Posted By NOTRIOUS75:
Originally Posted By SUB_MG:
Good looking gun. I had heard at shot show that the new Sig 516 was using several of the features from the LWRCI guns. Can't blame them for copying from the best gas piston gun out there.

What price range are they selling for?

I have always loved the classic Sig 556 with the rail since I shot the 551 and 552. I was going to pick one up but it was priced too close to the LWRCI guns so I passed. I thought about it again when CDNN was closing them out and giving away a 522 if you bought one. That is a hell of a deal. I would love to get the 556 10" pistol and turn it into a SBR also.

Looks like Sig is going to make a big move in the AR market with these.



Actually the gas system looks alot more like the 556 gas system (atleast to me), if it looks like the LWRCi, then I dont see it.... (Not trying to start a 'bigger dick' contest here)

ETA: Its sunday morining i have been up for less than 30 minutes and Ive already sinned... GOD FORGIVE ME FOR COVETING MY NEIGHBOR'S GIRL!! (Even though I dont know who's this is, I REALLY want this!!)

–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––­–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––-


I have not seen a picture of the gas system yet. Anyone want to post some picures?

The bolt carrier looks about the same but I'm not sure if they are using the same slick finish. The quad rail looks slightly different but I can not tell if they have the removable top section so you can service the gas
system. With the Troy flip up sights it looked just like the M6A2. The gas adjustment is different from the M6A3 and the rear sling QD is a nice addition.

I prefer the CHF barrels from LWRCI with the Ni-Corr finish versus the chrome lined since they should last about 4 times longer, 20K+

Here is a link with some good pictures to compare

http://www.expeditionexchange.com/lwrc/
Zone 5 Resistance Leader
Avatar
Moderator
  • Joined Mar 2005
  • Posts 11774
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Moderator
  • Joined Mar 2005
  • Posts 11774
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/16/2010 6:02:44 AM EST
“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
Basic
  • Joined Sep 2004
  • Posts 1227
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Neutral Feedback
Basic
  • Joined Sep 2004
  • Posts 1227
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Neutral Feedback
Posted: 5/16/2010 9:27:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By NOTRIOUS75:
Originally Posted By SUB_MG:
Good looking gun. I had heard at shot show that the new Sig 516 was using several of the features from the LWRCI guns. Can't blame them for copying from the best gas piston gun out there.

What price range are they selling for?

I have always loved the classic Sig 556 with the rail since I shot the 551 and 552. I was going to pick one up but it was priced too close to the LWRCI guns so I passed. I thought about it again when CDNN was closing them out and giving away a 522 if you bought one. That is a hell of a deal. I would love to get the 556 10" pistol and turn it into a SBR also.

Looks like Sig is going to make a big move in the AR market with these.



Actually the gas system looks alot more like the 556 gas system (atleast to me), if it looks like the LWRCi, then I dont see it.... (Not trying to start a 'bigger dick' contest here)

ETA: Its sunday morining i have been up for less than 30 minutes and Ive already sinned... GOD FORGIVE ME FOR COVETING MY NEIGHBOR'S GIRL!! (Even though I dont know who's this is, I REALLY want this!!)
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/sig_sauer_sig516-tfb1.jpg


That shorty 516 looks good.

Love the little PSD but I would go with the 6.8SPC vs 5.56mm on PSD sized guns.
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Joined Aug 2005
  • Posts 372
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Bronze
  • Joined Aug 2005
  • Posts 372
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/17/2010 9:36:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/18/2010 7:25:41 AM EST by SGT69]
Originally Posted By eric10mm:
Looks nice and I certainly would hope it runs well considering the price tag. Best feature to me is the integral QD swivel mount at the rear of the receiver a la Knight's. Is there a socket on each side of the receiver?


No, the swivel mount is only on the left side of the receiver.
Slightly amused indignation since 2001
Avatar
Bronze
  • Joined Jan 2001
  • Posts 12649
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Bronze
  • Joined Jan 2001
  • Posts 12649
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/17/2010 10:06:45 AM EST
What is the street price going to be like on these? I wasn't able to find any distributors that had them listed, although curiously RSR Group has every model of Sig 556 on "closeout" right now. Hmm.

For those of you waiting for parts commonality (Eric) the trend in the past five years has been diversification and innovation, not consolidation. I don't think we will see standardization in the next five years either. At some point the pendulum will swing back, likely only after the military makes some decisions about what direction they want to go in. By that time who knows that guns will be available, at what cost, and what legislative hurdles we will have to jump to acquire them?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
...when the able-bodied men of
a nation are trained in arms and organized, they are
better able to resist tyranny.

--Antonin Scalia, D.C. vs. Heller
Zone 5 Resistance Leader
Avatar
Moderator
  • Joined Mar 2005
  • Posts 11811
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Moderator
  • Joined Mar 2005
  • Posts 11811
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/17/2010 10:21:10 AM EST
“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Joined Aug 2005
  • Posts 373
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Bronze
  • Joined Aug 2005
  • Posts 373
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/18/2010 7:25:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/18/2010 7:31:02 AM EST by SGT69]
Here's a select fire 556 SBR.

Basic
  • Joined Sep 2004
  • Posts 1228
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Neutral Feedback
Basic
  • Joined Sep 2004
  • Posts 1228
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Neutral Feedback
Posted: 5/18/2010 7:55:12 PM EST
Looks like a lot of fun. Did you get any trigger time on it?
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Joined Aug 2005
  • Posts 374
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Bronze
  • Joined Aug 2005
  • Posts 374
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/19/2010 9:57:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By SUB_MG:
Looks like a lot of fun. Did you get any trigger time on it?


I brought my own loaded magazines to make certain I had an opportunity. I did fire the 556 and the 516. I've always enjoyed the full auto experience so I had a few short bursts and a 10-round string in full with the 556 SBR. Just enough to quench my desire to spend 10-12K for a select fire weapon of my own.

Basic
  • Joined Dec 2006
  • Posts 942
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Basic
  • Joined Dec 2006
  • Posts 942
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/19/2010 6:59:49 PM EST
so how does this gun not have the same problems all the other Piston ARs have. from the few photos you posted I dont see much diff between this and a Rugger 556, or any other adams arms converted bastard gun. Not saying that's bad just it doesn't look different enough to solve the piston issues. Something like the Para Ordnance TTR is at least a unique departure from the status quo. Not trying to be a party pooper but that is what I was thinking looking at the photos. The Sig 556 has a different bolt and carrier system I wish they had carried that through to this gun somehow.
Basic
  • Joined Feb 2007
  • Posts 194
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Neutral Feedback
Basic
  • Joined Feb 2007
  • Posts 194
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Neutral Feedback
Posted: 5/19/2010 10:55:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By 69camaro:
so how does this gun not have the same problems all the other Piston ARs have. from the few photos you posted I dont see much diff between this and a Rugger 556, or any other adams arms converted bastard gun. Not saying that's bad just it doesn't look different enough to solve the piston issues. Something like the Para Ordnance TTR is at least a unique departure from the status quo. Not trying to be a party pooper but that is what I was thinking looking at the photos. The Sig 556 has a different bolt and carrier system I wish they had carried that through to this gun somehow.


What are the typical issues? I have nearly bought the CMMG gas conversion kit a few times.
Basic
  • Joined Dec 2006
  • Posts 943
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Basic
  • Joined Dec 2006
  • Posts 943
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/20/2010 3:33:55 AM EST
From first hand users and from internet boards I have read that every one of these systems still has reciever tilt effects even with the Bolt "improvements" That all piston kits in the current AR platforms are a retrofit to a platform not a design in iteself. The other reports are that all of the kits have long term durability/reliability issues. Which unless you are tossing 5k a year down range probably wont be an issue. I am most intrigued by the Para TTR system since it is a radically different modification to an AR type rifle. It does away with the reciever tube/spring and uses a one piece carrier that reminds me of an AK a little. Still its proprietary and I havent read any good reviews of it. Not saying the Sig is crap at all just that its bolt looks just like an Adams Arms bolt and I keep reading negative reviews of that system. I guess I am imposing a guilty by association effect on the Sig.

Does anyone know of any AR piston systems that has passed through any military testing?
Zone 5 Resistance Leader
Avatar
Moderator
  • Joined Mar 2005
  • Posts 11842
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Moderator
  • Joined Mar 2005
  • Posts 11842
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/20/2010 4:48:52 AM EST
“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
Basic
  • Joined Dec 2009
  • Posts 92
  • Location USA KS, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Basic
  • Joined Dec 2009
  • Posts 92
  • Location USA KS, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/20/2010 5:07:17 AM EST
Originally Posted By eric10mm:
Originally Posted By 69camaro:
Does anyone know of any AR piston systems that has passed through any military testing?

HK416?



I love the HK416....
Killin a man is a hell of a thing...
Avatar
Bronze
  • Joined Feb 2002
  • Posts 5597
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Bronze
  • Joined Feb 2002
  • Posts 5597
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/20/2010 5:07:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By eric10mm:
Originally Posted By 69camaro:
Does anyone know of any AR piston systems that has passed through any military testing?

HK416?



Failed in the SCAR competition but was procured by CAG in limited numbers via COTS purchase.
"Deservins got nothin ta do with it."
Slightly amused indignation since 2001
Avatar
Bronze
  • Joined Jan 2001
  • Posts 12665
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Bronze
  • Joined Jan 2001
  • Posts 12665
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/20/2010 7:42:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
Originally Posted By eric10mm:
Originally Posted By 69camaro:
Does anyone know of any AR piston systems that has passed through any military testing?

HK416?



Failed in the SCAR competition but was procured by CAG in limited numbers via COTS purchase.


Are you referring to the 416 winning the Marine IAR contract? I'm not sure what CAG is (except for Carrier Air Group, hehe).
...when the able-bodied men of
a nation are trained in arms and organized, they are
better able to resist tyranny.

--Antonin Scalia, D.C. vs. Heller
Killin a man is a hell of a thing...
Avatar
Bronze
  • Joined Feb 2002
  • Posts 5598
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Bronze
  • Joined Feb 2002
  • Posts 5598
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/20/2010 1:49:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
Originally Posted By eric10mm:
Originally Posted By 69camaro:
Does anyone know of any AR piston systems that has passed through any military testing?

HK416?



Failed in the SCAR competition but was procured by CAG in limited numbers via COTS purchase.


Are you referring to the 416 winning the Marine IAR contract? I'm not sure what CAG is (except for Carrier Air Group, hehe).


The IAR is NOT a 416... The 416 is JUST a piston M4... period...
The IAR fires automatically from an Open Bolt per the IAR requirement

CAG is Combat Applications Group
AKA Delta's New Secret Identity.

You should know that from the Video Games no?
"Deservins got nothin ta do with it."
Basic
  • Joined Sep 2004
  • Posts 1229
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Neutral Feedback
Basic
  • Joined Sep 2004
  • Posts 1229
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Neutral Feedback
Posted: 5/20/2010 4:19:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By 69camaro:
From first hand users and from internet boards I have read that every one of these systems still has reciever tilt effects even with the Bolt "improvements" That all piston kits in the current AR platforms are a retrofit to a platform not a design in iteself. The other reports are that all of the kits have long term durability/reliability issues. Which unless you are tossing 5k a year down range probably wont be an issue. I am most intrigued by the Para TTR system since it is a radically different modification to an AR type rifle. It does away with the reciever tube/spring and uses a one piece carrier that reminds me of an AK a little. Still its proprietary and I havent read any good reviews of it. Not saying the Sig is crap at all just that its bolt looks just like an Adams Arms bolt and I keep reading negative reviews of that system. I guess I am imposing a guilty by association effect on the Sig.

Does anyone know of any AR piston systems that has passed through any military testing?


The LWRCI guns do not have any issues with bolt tilt. Check out the back end of their bolt carriers. They have a larger diameter back end which prevents the tilt. This is just one of the advancements that they have made on the gas piston guns.

Check out the following link to read more about their advancements.

http://www.expeditionexchange.com/lwrc/
Slightly amused indignation since 2001
Avatar
Bronze
  • Joined Jan 2001
  • Posts 12667
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Bronze
  • Joined Jan 2001
  • Posts 12667
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/20/2010 6:05:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
The IAR is NOT a 416... The 416 is JUST a piston M4... period...
The IAR fires automatically from an Open Bolt per the IAR requirement

CAG is Combat Applications Group
AKA Delta's New Secret Identity.

You should know that from the Video Games no?


I don't know much from video games, but unfortunately for me I read all these articles instead of just asking you.

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2009/12/02/hk-wins-marine-corps-iar-contract-with-hk416-variant/

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/03/hk-wins-usmc-iar-competition-big-news/

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2009/12/marine_IAR_120209w/

And according to the articles, the IAR requirement was changed to closed-bolt operation sometime after they turned away from the LWRC entry. The rumor mill has it that the whole IAR thing was going nowhere, like a bunch of other procurement competitions have in the past five years, until the top Marine brass figured they could use it as an end-around to get the HK gun into troops hands as soon as possible and replace a bunch of worn out SAWs and other weapons. That's why they aren't worried about the lack of extra-high capacity mags and stuff like that, because they don't really care about truly replacing the SAW right now, they just want rifles that work in the hands of the men who need them, and they needed a way to get some quickly, on their own, instead of piggybacking onto a larger contract with Big Army and/or Big Navy, which doesn't appear to be happening any time soon.

According to rumor at least.
...when the able-bodied men of
a nation are trained in arms and organized, they are
better able to resist tyranny.

--Antonin Scalia, D.C. vs. Heller
Killin a man is a hell of a thing...
Avatar
Bronze
  • Joined Feb 2002
  • Posts 5599
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Bronze
  • Joined Feb 2002
  • Posts 5599
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/20/2010 6:10:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By SUB_MG:
Originally Posted By 69camaro:
From first hand users and from internet boards I have read that every one of these systems still has reciever tilt effects even with the Bolt "improvements" That all piston kits in the current AR platforms are a retrofit to a platform not a design in iteself. The other reports are that all of the kits have long term durability/reliability issues. Which unless you are tossing 5k a year down range probably wont be an issue. I am most intrigued by the Para TTR system since it is a radically different modification to an AR type rifle. It does away with the reciever tube/spring and uses a one piece carrier that reminds me of an AK a little. Still its proprietary and I havent read any good reviews of it. Not saying the Sig is crap at all just that its bolt looks just like an Adams Arms bolt and I keep reading negative reviews of that system. I guess I am imposing a guilty by association effect on the Sig.

Does anyone know of any AR piston systems that has passed through any military testing?


The LWRCI guns do not have any issues with bolt tilt. Check out the back end of their bolt carriers. They have a larger diameter back end which prevents the tilt. This is just one of the advancements that they have made on the gas piston guns.

Check out the following link to read more about their advancements.

http://www.expeditionexchange.com/lwrc/


Back when ammo was cheap (Green Tip for I think it was $150 a k) I was throwing 2k a weekend down the range... EVERY weekend... I would surpass 5k EVERY 3 weeks... I shot a LOT of you all's ammo when I was IN... This went on pretty regularly from August 1998- May 2005 and I was never able to pick that pace back up after Cancer treatments... Trying to build up some ammo so that I can return to actual TRAINING!!!
"Deservins got nothin ta do with it."
Killin a man is a hell of a thing...
Avatar
Bronze
  • Joined Feb 2002
  • Posts 5600
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Bronze
  • Joined Feb 2002
  • Posts 5600
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/20/2010 6:15:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
The IAR is NOT a 416... The 416 is JUST a piston M4... period...
The IAR fires automatically from an Open Bolt per the IAR requirement

CAG is Combat Applications Group
AKA Delta's New Secret Identity.

You should know that from the Video Games no?


I don't know much from video games, but unfortunately for me I read all these articles instead of just asking you.

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2009/12/02/hk-wins-marine-corps-iar-contract-with-hk416-variant/

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/03/hk-wins-usmc-iar-competition-big-news/

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2009/12/marine_IAR_120209w/

And according to the articles, the IAR requirement was changed to closed-bolt operation sometime after they turned away from the LWRC entry. The rumor mill has it that the whole IAR thing was going nowhere, like a bunch of other procurement competitions have in the past five years, until the top Marine brass figured they could use it as an end-around to get the HK gun into troops hands as soon as possible and replace a bunch of worn out SAWs and other weapons. That's why they aren't worried about the lack of extra-high capacity mags and stuff like that, because they don't really care about truly replacing the SAW right now, they just want rifles that work in the hands of the men who need them, and they needed a way to get some quickly, on their own, instead of piggybacking onto a larger contract with Big Army and/or Big Navy, which doesn't appear to be happening any time soon.

According to rumor at least.


Unfortunately most of the resources listed are parroting the Marine corps Times which is well known for being worse than a Gun Rag!
Funny that the Selection had a set of requirements and they end run the reqs to buy a weapon that can't do what they required...
Guess it matters not since the contract has not been awarded, just a winner selected the contract will likely be cancelled (the Current Administration is not going to buy war making machines!) The Rifle doesn't DO anything that the current rifles don't.
"Deservins got nothin ta do with it."
Say hello to my little friend...
Avatar
Bronze
  • Joined Jun 2001
  • Posts 3419
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Bronze
  • Joined Jun 2001
  • Posts 3419
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/20/2010 6:37:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
The IAR is NOT a 416... The 416 is JUST a piston M4... period...
The IAR fires automatically from an Open Bolt per the IAR requirement

CAG is Combat Applications Group
AKA Delta's New Secret Identity.

You should know that from the Video Games no?


I don't know much from video games, but unfortunately for me I read all these articles instead of just asking you.

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2009/12/02/hk-wins-marine-corps-iar-contract-with-hk416-variant/

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/03/hk-wins-usmc-iar-competition-big-news/

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2009/12/marine_IAR_120209w/

And according to the articles, the IAR requirement was changed to closed-bolt operation sometime after they turned away from the LWRC entry. The rumor mill has it that the whole IAR thing was going nowhere, like a bunch of other procurement competitions have in the past five years, until the top Marine brass figured they could use it as an end-around to get the HK gun into troops hands as soon as possible and replace a bunch of worn out SAWs and other weapons. That's why they aren't worried about the lack of extra-high capacity mags and stuff like that, because they don't really care about truly replacing the SAW right now, they just want rifles that work in the hands of the men who need them, and they needed a way to get some quickly, on their own, instead of piggybacking onto a larger contract with Big Army and/or Big Navy, which doesn't appear to be happening any time soon.

According to rumor at least.


Unfortunately most of the resources listed are parroting the Marine corps Times which is well known for being worse than a Gun Rag!
Funny that the Selection had a set of requirements and they end run the reqs to buy a weapon that can't do what they required...
Guess it matters not since the contract has not been awarded, just a winner selected the contract will likely be cancelled (the Current Administration is not going to buy war making machines!) The Rifle doesn't DO anything that the current rifles don't.


I am fond of the idea for a US Military FAL and a belt feed SAW both in 7.62x39...
Some days, it's not even worth chewing through the restraints.
Basic
  • Joined Sep 2004
  • Posts 1231
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Neutral Feedback
Basic
  • Joined Sep 2004
  • Posts 1231
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Neutral Feedback
Posted: 5/20/2010 7:21:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
The IAR is NOT a 416... The 416 is JUST a piston M4... period...
The IAR fires automatically from an Open Bolt per the IAR requirement

CAG is Combat Applications Group
AKA Delta's New Secret Identity.

You should know that from the Video Games no?


I don't know much from video games, but unfortunately for me I read all these articles instead of just asking you.

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2009/12/02/hk-wins-marine-corps-iar-contract-with-hk416-variant/

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/03/hk-wins-usmc-iar-competition-big-news/

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2009/12/marine_IAR_120209w/

And according to the articles, the IAR requirement was changed to closed-bolt operation sometime after they turned away from the LWRC entry. The rumor mill has it that the whole IAR thing was going nowhere, like a bunch of other procurement competitions have in the past five years, until the top Marine brass figured they could use it as an end-around to get the HK gun into troops hands as soon as possible and replace a bunch of worn out SAWs and other weapons. That's why they aren't worried about the lack of extra-high capacity mags and stuff like that, because they don't really care about truly replacing the SAW right now, they just want rifles that work in the hands of the men who need them, and they needed a way to get some quickly, on their own, instead of piggybacking onto a larger contract with Big Army and/or Big Navy, which doesn't appear to be happening any time soon.

According to rumor at least.


If they were smart they would have gone with the LWRCI M6A4. It fires open bolt in full auto for better barrel cooling and closed bolt in semiauto for more accurate shots. I would love to see them get into production so I can get one in for demo.

Here is more info.

http://www.lwrci.com/p-130-m6a4.aspx
Slightly amused indignation since 2001
Avatar
Bronze
  • Joined Jan 2001
  • Posts 12669
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Bronze
  • Joined Jan 2001
  • Posts 12669
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/20/2010 7:47:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By AFSOC:

Unfortunately most of the resources listed are parroting the Marine corps Times which is well known for being worse than a Gun Rag!


If you have a better or newer source of conflicting information, please share.

Funny that the Selection had a set of requirements and they end run the reqs to buy a weapon that can't do what they required...


Reminds me of the USAF and their tanker contract fiasco. Shit like this is why I laugh when people start saying one rifle or pistol is better because it was adopted by the military. The military procurement process is a gordian knot, a clusterfuck of truly epic proportions. Why anyone would blindly ahere to their choices is beyond my comprehension.

Guess it matters not since the contract has not been awarded, just a winner selected the contract will likely be cancelled (the Current Administration is not going to buy war making machines!) The Rifle doesn't DO anything that the current rifles don't.


I don't know about current rifles, but if they work reliably and fire the first shot without jamming or misfiring, then they do something that alot of M249s currently in Corps inventory won't do any more. Which is why they aren't going to be used to replace rifles, they will be used to replace junk SAWs. And as far as the current administration, well I think we can see the writing on the wall:

http://www.theusreport.com/the-us-report/some-us-troops-in-afghanistan-may-patrol-with-no-rounds-cham.html

Looks like alot of our boys are going to be in line for those coveted Courageous Restraint medals!

...when the able-bodied men of
a nation are trained in arms and organized, they are
better able to resist tyranny.

--Antonin Scalia, D.C. vs. Heller
Killin a man is a hell of a thing...
Avatar
Bronze
  • Joined Feb 2002
  • Posts 5602
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Bronze
  • Joined Feb 2002
  • Posts 5602
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/21/2010 1:17:22 AM EST
249s work fine...

BUT occasionally you have to replace parts, and occasionally an entire weapon...
Things do age and fall apart eventually.

The IAR was NEVER and still is NOT supposed to replace the SAW, it is an AUTOMATIC RIFLE, not a MACHINEGUN.

I don't have any documentation that you can see... Sorry.
"Deservins got nothin ta do with it."
Basic
  • Joined Dec 2006
  • Posts 944
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Basic
  • Joined Dec 2006
  • Posts 944
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/21/2010 2:48:53 AM EST
All the piston kits including the adams arms, the rugger 556, sig 516, et cetera feature the bolt swell in the rear and the evidence is showing that long term that doesnt solve the problem. I am not trying to be argumentative here, belive me i REALLY want to belive one of these work well but I havent seen one system yet that can say it really has solved that issue. I have been reading storry after story of assorted piston rifles not making it through rifle classes; including the LWRC, that the DI guns finished without issue. I wish I could say I would put my money where my mouth is and just buy an LWRC and put it through my own trials but if I buy another AR I would be freaking stupid. I got black gun fever when I was young and those things seem to breed like rabbits.
Basic
  • Joined Sep 2004
  • Posts 1236
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Neutral Feedback
Basic
  • Joined Sep 2004
  • Posts 1236
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Neutral Feedback
Posted: 5/22/2010 6:20:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By 69camaro:
All the piston kits including the adams arms, the rugger 556, sig 516, et cetera feature the bolt swell in the rear and the evidence is showing that long term that doesnt solve the problem. I am not trying to be argumentative here, belive me i REALLY want to belive one of these work well but I havent seen one system yet that can say it really has solved that issue. I have been reading storry after story of assorted piston rifles not making it through rifle classes; including the LWRC, that the DI guns finished without issue. I wish I could say I would put my money where my mouth is and just buy an LWRC and put it through my own trials but if I buy another AR I would be freaking stupid. I got black gun fever when I was young and those things seem to breed like rabbits.


I have seen very few reported cases of wear caused by bolt carrier tilt with the LWRCI guns. I think I have read about maybe two or three over the last few years. Those were likely just guns that had other issues. I have seen pictures of many LWRCI guns with 3K-6K rounds and no signs of tilt wear.

We have three LWRCI guns in the family and have not seen any signs of tilt wear. I do not have a ton of rounds through any of them yet but our 5.56 M6A3 gets most of the trigger time. The 6.8 and REPR cost too much to feed to shoot them every week.
Zone 5 Resistance Leader
Avatar
Moderator
  • Joined Mar 2005
  • Posts 11887
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Moderator
  • Joined Mar 2005
  • Posts 11887
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/22/2010 6:56:43 PM EST
“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
Killin a man is a hell of a thing...
Avatar
Bronze
  • Joined Feb 2002
  • Posts 5617
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Bronze
  • Joined Feb 2002
  • Posts 5617
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/23/2010 3:41:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By eric10mm:
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
The 416 is JUST a piston M4... period...


With all due respect, and admitting my disdain for all AR things pistoned, that is like saying a C6 Z06 Corvette is just a Chevy.


Really? Really?
The Corvette is just a chevy, But that is NOT even the same comparison... The Corvette is faster, better handling, more expensive than the Malibu...

The 416 vs the M4...
The 416 fires the 5.56x45 Check
the M4 fires the 5.56x45 Check

The 416 has a piston operating system
The M4 does not have a piston

The 416 feeds from the Shitty Hk Magazines... STRIKE ONE
The M4 Feeds from standard GI mags that work fine.... (This Mag thing is BS I know but in the spirit fo your ridiculous comparison)

The 416 has a 14.5" Chrome Lined Barrel
The M4 has a 14.5" Chrome Lined Barrel

Both have their controls in the same spot
Both have iron sights in their native form
Hk using their signature rear sight the front is just a post
Both have an A2 flash suppressor
Both have a plastic stock and railed fore end (most military M4s have rails these days)
It is not significantly more accurate or significantly more reliable...
For all intents and purposes your LaRue Stealth is a better weapon....
Oh and the final nail in the coffin for the Hk... YOU or I can't have one.
"Deservins got nothin ta do with it."
Zone 5 Resistance Leader
Avatar
Moderator
  • Joined Mar 2005
  • Posts 11894
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Moderator
  • Joined Mar 2005
  • Posts 11894
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/23/2010 4:16:57 PM EST
“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
Killin a man is a hell of a thing...
Avatar
Bronze
  • Joined Feb 2002
  • Posts 5619
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Bronze
  • Joined Feb 2002
  • Posts 5619
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/23/2010 5:39:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By eric10mm:
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
Originally Posted By eric10mm:
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
The 416 is JUST a piston M4... period...


With all due respect, and admitting my disdain for all AR things pistoned, that is like saying a C6 Z06 Corvette is just a Chevy.


Really? Really?
The Corvette is just a chevy, But that is NOT even the same comparison... The Corvette is faster, better handling, more expensive than the Malibu...

The 416 vs the M4...
The 416 fires the 5.56x45 Check
the M4 fires the 5.56x45 Check

The 416 has a piston operating system
The M4 does not have a piston

The 416 feeds from the Shitty Hk Magazines... STRIKE ONE Please point to support of your STRIKE allegation. Other than a higher cost I have heard NO problems with the HK "high reliability" magazines.Oh all I have are the guys who actually USED them and DISCARDED THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE SHIT and went back to the OKAY Mfg High Reliability mag and ultimately the P-Mags.... but aside from that nothing,
The M4 Feeds from standard GI mags that work fine.... (This Mag thing is BS I know but in the spirit of your ridiculous comparison)

The 416 has a 14.5" Chrome Lined Barrel You forgot Hammer Forged for longer usable barrel life. how many rounds? the US Military has set a round limit on the barrels in service... totally arbitrary and the Hk 416 suffers from the same. But hey we shoot the barrels out on our ARs so often don't we? my Old M4 has WAY more rounds down the pipe than the US Army specified 10k... GUARANTEED and it still shoots fine... Hammer Forged doesn't really mean anything in this argument...

The M4 has a 14.5" Chrome Lined Barrel Yeah, I inspect barrels at work, frequently, even the RETIRED barrels are still fine... Go Figure!

Both have their controls in the same spot HK has far superior and better looking pictograms. Ghey...
Both have iron sights in their native form
Hk using their signature rear sight the front is just a post
Both have an A2 flash suppressor
Both have a plastic stock and railed fore end (most military M4s have rails these days) HK claims to have improved upon the standard M4 buffer, though I do not not know the specs.
It is not significantly more accurate or significantly more reliable... How many buffers have you ever known of to fail?
For all intents and purposes your LaRue Stealth is a better weapon....
Oh and the final nail in the coffin for the Hk... YOU or I can't have one. Okay, for this HK does suck


HK's gernade launcher looks way more badass than a M203. The 416 doesn't come with one...

And finally the best feature is that it's made by Germans, and you know the Germans make good stuff. At the very least it was not a "lowest bidder" built weapon that was the result of Good Old Boy contract negotiations with General Whatshisname at Clot getting the nod for the bid. Colt has lost the M4 contract, still deciding whether to have ti bid or to replace the system entirely...



Knowing is hlf the battle understanding is the other half, Agreed that it is a fine weapon but it is not a magic death ray... The Afghans and Iraqis are currently convinced that the M16 and the M4 ARE indeed majic death rays! Too much Proprietary stuff, if they would let me have one I would buy one, but at 4k for the upper and unobtainium for an Hk Lower? FUCK them... LWRCI, SIG, S&W, Ruger, and I just read about Osprey Defense... May well have to get one of their kits just to try and kill it.. Any of these are better IMHO than the Hk, CLot even has a pistoff design.....
"Deservins got nothin ta do with it."
Zone 5 Resistance Leader
Avatar
Moderator
  • Joined Mar 2005
  • Posts 11902
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Moderator
  • Joined Mar 2005
  • Posts 11902
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/24/2010 5:17:34 AM EST
“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
Killin a man is a hell of a thing...
Avatar
Bronze
  • Joined Feb 2002
  • Posts 5620
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Bronze
  • Joined Feb 2002
  • Posts 5620
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/24/2010 10:34:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By eric10mm:
Has anyone ever told you that you are annoyingly opinionated? Even the times that you're right.


Who says? I will argue that they are wrong.... In my opinion...

Someone dared me to go post this at Hkpro....
"Deservins got nothin ta do with it."
Basic
  • Joined Aug 2007
  • Posts 746
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Basic
  • Joined Aug 2007
  • Posts 746
  • Location USA MO, USA
Offline Positive Feedback
Posted: 5/27/2010 5:42:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/27/2010 5:44:26 PM EST by SHIFT_OneOffS14]
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
Originally Posted By eric10mm:
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
Originally Posted By eric10mm:
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
The 416 is JUST a piston M4... period...


With all due respect, and admitting my disdain for all AR things pistoned, that is like saying a C6 Z06 Corvette is just a Chevy.


Really? Really?
The Corvette is just a chevy, But that is NOT even the same comparison... The Corvette is faster, better handling, more expensive than the Malibu...

The 416 vs the M4...
The 416 fires the 5.56x45 Check
the M4 fires the 5.56x45 Check

The 416 has a piston operating system
The M4 does not have a piston

The 416 feeds from the Shitty Hk Magazines... STRIKE ONE Please point to support of your STRIKE allegation. Other than a higher cost I have heard NO problems with the HK "high reliability" magazines.Oh all I have are the guys who actually USED them and DISCARDED THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE SHIT and went back to the OKAY Mfg High Reliability mag and ultimately the P-Mags.... but aside from that nothing,
The M4 Feeds from standard GI mags that work fine.... (This Mag thing is BS I know but in the spirit of your ridiculous comparison)

The 416 has a 14.5" Chrome Lined Barrel You forgot Hammer Forged for longer usable barrel life. how many rounds? the US Military has set a round limit on the barrels in service... totally arbitrary and the Hk 416 suffers from the same. But hey we shoot the barrels out on our ARs so often don't we? my Old M4 has WAY more rounds down the pipe than the US Army specified 10k... GUARANTEED and it still shoots fine... Hammer Forged doesn't really mean anything in this argument...

The M4 has a 14.5" Chrome Lined Barrel Yeah, I inspect barrels at work, frequently, even the RETIRED barrels are still fine... Go Figure!

Both have their controls in the same spot HK has far superior and better looking pictograms. Ghey...
Both have iron sights in their native form
Hk using their signature rear sight the front is just a post
Both have an A2 flash suppressor
Both have a plastic stock and railed fore end (most military M4s have rails these days) HK claims to have improved upon the standard M4 buffer, though I do not not know the specs.
It is not significantly more accurate or significantly more reliable... How many buffers have you ever known of to fail?
For all intents and purposes your LaRue Stealth is a better weapon....
Oh and the final nail in the coffin for the Hk... YOU or I can't have one. Okay, for this HK does suck


HK's gernade launcher looks way more badass than a M203. The 416 doesn't come with one...

And finally the best feature is that it's made by Germans, and you know the Germans make good stuff. At the very least it was not a "lowest bidder" built weapon that was the result of Good Old Boy contract negotiations with General Whatshisname at Clot getting the nod for the bid. Colt has lost the M4 contract, still deciding whether to have ti bid or to replace the system entirely...



Knowing is hlf the battle understanding is the other half, Agreed that it is a fine weapon but it is not a magic death ray... The Afghans and Iraqis are currently convinced that the M16 and the M4 ARE indeed majic death rays! Too much Proprietary stuff, if they would let me have one I would buy one, but at 4k for the upper and unobtainium for an Hk Lower? FUCK them... LWRCI, SIG, S&W, Ruger, and I just read about Osprey Defense... May well have to get one of their kits just to try and kill it.. Any of these are better IMHO than the Hk, CLot even has a pistoff design.....


Having recently shot a HK 416, I will say another nail in the coffin is the weight...the damn thing is HEAVY!!! even in the SBR form I shot it in.. Add the suppressor and its just plain rediculous. HK decided a long time ago it dosent care about the civilian shooting public, and even the law enforcement community is less than impressed with their "customer service"

To the OP, did the sig rep give any price indications or avalibility?
Top