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Posted: 9/30/2016 4:43:52 PM EDT
[#1]
Well, I just dug into the mn statues, and I think I just answered my own question. If I'm reading it correctly, it looks like sbs are a no go for us civilian folks.
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Posted: 9/30/2016 6:55:20 PM EDT
[#2]
IIRC, you can have C&R SBS in Minnesota, but not new ones. Same goes for machine guns.
That project would go on a form 1, if it were legal here. |
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Posted: 10/1/2016 12:42:20 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IIRC, you can have C&R SBS in Minnesota, but not new ones. It has to be an SBS in original C&R configuration too. You can not take a C&R shotgun and chop it down to be an SBS, because that would be a new modification and it would no longer be considered C&R. dumb laws |
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Posted: 10/1/2016 3:54:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Well that just takes all the fun out of trying to be creative. Thanks for the responses.
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Posted: 10/1/2016 8:48:04 PM EDT
[#5]
You can still do a shotgun in AOW form.
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Posted: 10/2/2016 10:33:38 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can still do a shotgun in AOW form. |
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Posted: 10/2/2016 4:24:09 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You need a receiver that never had a stock installed to do that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You can still do a shotgun in AOW form. Or you by one already in AOW status. $200 to do it on a form 1 or $5 to do it on a form 4. |
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Posted: 10/2/2016 4:55:53 PM EDT
[#8]
So let me try to understand this. Let's say I saw the barrel down on a shotgun to less than 18", then chop the stock to where the oal is less than 26", isn't that then considered an aow as well? Otherwise what's the difference than any other form 1 sbs? And things such as the serbu, how would that be legal in MN on a form 4 if I can't form 1 my own shotgun? Or am I trying to understand things that just don't make sense to begin with?
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Posted: 10/2/2016 7:08:02 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Let's say I saw the barrel down on a shotgun to less than 18", then chop the stock to where the oal is less than 26", isn't that then considered an aow as well? |
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Posted: 10/2/2016 8:46:33 PM EDT
[#10]
Ah, I see. Hence the reason the Serbu is legal...I'm tracking.
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Posted: 10/2/2016 9:37:21 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So let me try to understand this. Let's say I saw the barrel down on a shotgun to less than 18", then chop the stock to where the oal is less than 26", isn't that then considered an aow as well? Otherwise what's the difference than any other form 1 sbs? And things such as the serbu, how would that be legal in MN on a form 4 if I can't form 1 my own shotgun? Or am I trying to understand things that just don't make sense to begin with? You could do it with a Mossberg cruiser or another pistol grip only shotgun or a stripped receiver on a form 1. But anything that has ever had a stock is a shotgun and can not be converted to an AOW. |
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Posted: 10/3/2016 11:46:45 AM EDT
[#12]
Check into the Non NFA 14" shotgun conversions you can do yourself from a PGO shotgun
https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_1/440753_Non_NFA_14_Mossberg_500_.html |
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Posted: 10/7/2016 1:43:05 AM EDT
[#13]
Wipeout is correct per my understanding of the MN laws. And while I'm not a lawyer (and not yours, specifically), they go something like this:
- You CANNOT have a "true" short-barrel shotgun, unless it's a C&R. No non-C&R SBS (or MG) in MN. - You CAN have an AOW, which in this instance is effectively a very nasty little midget-barrel shotgun, with the correct forms and taxes. - You CAN pick up a +factory+ Mossberg PG cruiser of any length, replace the PG with a bird's head grip and cut the barrel such that it is at least 26" overall. The bird's head grip isn't required per se, but it's long enough that it permits a fair degree of barrel cutting (down to 14" or so) and still meet the 26" mark. Lots of info on this mod, on the net. |
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Posted: 10/7/2016 3:27:04 AM EDT
[#14]
I will dig into that. Thanks for the info!
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Posted: 10/7/2016 2:51:36 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So let me try to understand this. Let's say I saw the barrel down on a shotgun to less than 18", then chop the stock to where the oal is less than 26", isn't that then considered an aow as well? Otherwise what's the difference than any other form 1 sbs? And things such as the serbu, how would that be legal in MN on a form 4 if I can't form 1 my own shotgun? Or am I trying to understand things that just don't make sense to begin with? Stop right there. No sawing. Put the dremel/saw down. Repeat after me: "Once a shotgun, always a shotgun" is all you need to know in MN. Period. This NEVER changes even if you modify the hell out of it. What is legal are 3 options for you if you wish to shoot 12g rounds 1) PGO (Pistol Grip Only) Rem 870 or Moss 500 and then put a shorter barrel on it. Over all length MUST be 26" (be safe, 26.5") and NEVER EVER F*CKING PUT A STOCK ON IT!!! Carry a copy of your bill of sale and a copy of the ATF letter with you and the "firearm" at all times 2) AOW - super shorty from SERBU or other supplier/manufacturer 3) Find a 50+yr old SBS in another state and transfer it. MUST be a SBS for at least 50yrs before you can bring the firearm into this state for owning Option 1 is by far the least expensive. Option 2 is the most "kewl" Option 3 is the hardest to come by |
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Posted: 10/7/2016 11:01:15 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Repeat after me: "Once a shotgun, always a shotgun" is all you need to know in MN. Period. This NEVER changes even if you modify the hell out of it. Per my reading, norseman1's (correct) advice can be expanded to: "Once a long gun, always a long gun". There is no legal way to convert or modify any long gun into anything other than another long gun. Likewise, a handgun cannot be stocked - unless both the barrel and overall lengths of the finished firearm meet the definitions of a rifle (16" bbl. 26" overall IIRC). Once the mods are undertaken, it is a rifle (a long gun) and will forevermore be as such - there is no 'going back'. Please feel free to correct me on this. I try to stay current.. |
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Posted: 10/7/2016 11:14:17 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Per my reading, norseman1's (correct) advice can be expanded to: "Once a long gun, always a long gun". There is no legal way to convert or modify any long gun into anything other than another long gun. Likewise, a handgun cannot be stocked - unless both the barrel and overall lengths of the finished firearm meet the definitions of a rifle (16" bbl. 26" overall IIRC). Once the mods are undertaken, it is a rifle (a long gun) and will forevermore be as such - there is no 'going back'. Please feel free to correct me on this. I try to stay current.. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Repeat after me: "Once a shotgun, always a shotgun" is all you need to know in MN. Period. This NEVER changes even if you modify the hell out of it. Per my reading, norseman1's (correct) advice can be expanded to: "Once a long gun, always a long gun". There is no legal way to convert or modify any long gun into anything other than another long gun. Likewise, a handgun cannot be stocked - unless both the barrel and overall lengths of the finished firearm meet the definitions of a rifle (16" bbl. 26" overall IIRC). Once the mods are undertaken, it is a rifle (a long gun) and will forevermore be as such - there is no 'going back'. Please feel free to correct me on this. I try to stay current.. You can go back and forth from pistol to rifle all you want so long as you started with pistol. |
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Posted: 10/8/2016 10:30:35 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can go back and forth from pistol to rifle all you want so long as you started with pistol. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: **shotgun snip** Per my reading, norseman1's (correct) advice can be expanded to: "Once a long gun, always a long gun". **bigger snippity snip** You can go back and forth from pistol to rifle all you want so long as you started with pistol. ETA: There is a discussion and link to the ATF letter on the matter here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_48/345636_Mech_Tech_handgun_uppers___Important_BATFE_ruling_on_page_2__.html&page=2 |
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Posted: 10/8/2016 11:43:35 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can go back and forth from pistol to rifle all you want so long as you started with pistol. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Repeat after me: "Once a shotgun, always a shotgun" is all you need to know in MN. Period. This NEVER changes even if you modify the hell out of it. Per my reading, norseman1's (correct) advice can be expanded to: "Once a long gun, always a long gun". There is no legal way to convert or modify any long gun into anything other than another long gun. Likewise, a handgun cannot be stocked - unless both the barrel and overall lengths of the finished firearm meet the definitions of a rifle (16" bbl. 26" overall IIRC). Once the mods are undertaken, it is a rifle (a long gun) and will forevermore be as such - there is no 'going back'. Please feel free to correct me on this. I try to stay current.. You can go back and forth from pistol to rifle all you want so long as you started with pistol. Do be careful, a firearm designated a "pistol" can be modified with a longer stock and barrel to meet the 16" barrel requirement an 26" OAL that a rifle is classified as. It can be converted back... that part is 100% accurate. Long guns are always long guns is correct. There is no way to "un-long gun" a rifle or shotgun. |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 12:22:23 AM EDT
[#20]
Just to be clear, you should keep copies of the docs handy AT ALL TIMES.
Was just at a local range and another gent with a SBR was asked to provide docs. Range owners have every right to ask for things like paperwork and identification.... its a private business (or club, in some cases) and they don't want bad publicity. Do everyone a favor and try not to start a confrontation that is not needed. |
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Posted: 10/18/2016 7:11:43 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just to be clear, you should keep copies of the docs handy AT ALL TIMES. Was just at a local range and another gent with a SBR was asked to provide docs. Range owners have every right to ask for things like paperwork and identification.... its a private business (or club, in some cases) and they don't want bad publicity. Do everyone a favor and try not to start a confrontation that is not needed. Actually...no, they don't have the right to ask for docs. That is, they can ask, but the person who possesses the item does not have to furnish any proof to them that it's registered unless they are an ATF agent. IT IS A TAX DOCUMENT. It is not a permission slip. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-possessor-nfa-firearm-have-show-proof-registration https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/granule/USCODE-2011-title26/USCODE-2011-title26-subtitleE-chap53-subchapB-partI-sec5841 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5841 Any place that asked that of me would get met with a fuck you, a middle finger, and I'd be leaving...and making sure everyone I knew would know what a shitty place it was to shoot. Sorry if it comes across as mean, I don't mean it to be...just we surrender stupid shit an inch at a time, and it's time we started making everyone adhere to NFA laws, including those who think they're entitled to find out shit that they're not entitled to. |
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Posted: 10/19/2016 12:57:49 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Actually...no, they don't have the right to ask for docs. That is, they can ask, but the person who possesses the item does not have to furnish any proof to them that it's registered unless they are an ATF agent. IT IS A TAX DOCUMENT. It is not a permission slip. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-possessor-nfa-firearm-have-show-proof-registration https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/granule/USCODE-2011-title26/USCODE-2011-title26-subtitleE-chap53-subchapB-partI-sec5841 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5841 Any place that asked that of me would get met with a fuck you, a middle finger, and I'd be leaving...and making sure everyone I knew would know what a shitty place it was to shoot. Sorry if it comes across as mean, I don't mean it to be...just we surrender stupid shit an inch at a time, and it's time we started making everyone adhere to NFA laws, including those who think they're entitled to find out shit that they're not entitled to. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Just to be clear, you should keep copies of the docs handy AT ALL TIMES. Was just at a local range and another gent with a SBR was asked to provide docs. Range owners have every right to ask for things like paperwork and identification.... its a private business (or club, in some cases) and they don't want bad publicity. Do everyone a favor and try not to start a confrontation that is not needed. Actually...no, they don't have the right to ask for docs. That is, they can ask, but the person who possesses the item does not have to furnish any proof to them that it's registered unless they are an ATF agent. IT IS A TAX DOCUMENT. It is not a permission slip. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-possessor-nfa-firearm-have-show-proof-registration https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/granule/USCODE-2011-title26/USCODE-2011-title26-subtitleE-chap53-subchapB-partI-sec5841 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5841 Any place that asked that of me would get met with a fuck you, a middle finger, and I'd be leaving...and making sure everyone I knew would know what a shitty place it was to shoot. Sorry if it comes across as mean, I don't mean it to be...just we surrender stupid shit an inch at a time, and it's time we started making everyone adhere to NFA laws, including those who think they're entitled to find out shit that they're not entitled to. Well said. |
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Posted: 10/20/2016 12:46:08 PM EDT
[#23]
Then again, when you play in someone else's sandbox. Their rules!
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Posted: 10/20/2016 1:00:39 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Actually...no, they don't have the right to ask for docs. That is, they can ask, but the person who possesses the item does not have to furnish any proof to them that it's registered unless they are an ATF agent. IT IS A TAX DOCUMENT. It is not a permission slip. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-possessor-nfa-firearm-have-show-proof-registration https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/granule/USCODE-2011-title26/USCODE-2011-title26-subtitleE-chap53-subchapB-partI-sec5841 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5841 Any place that asked that of me would get met with a fuck you, a middle finger, and I'd be leaving...and making sure everyone I knew would know what a shitty place it was to shoot. Sorry if it comes across as mean, I don't mean it to be...just we surrender stupid shit an inch at a time, and it's time we started making everyone adhere to NFA laws, including those who think they're entitled to find out shit that they're not entitled to. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Just to be clear, you should keep copies of the docs handy AT ALL TIMES. Was just at a local range and another gent with a SBR was asked to provide docs. Range owners have every right to ask for things like paperwork and identification.... its a private business (or club, in some cases) and they don't want bad publicity. Do everyone a favor and try not to start a confrontation that is not needed. Actually...no, they don't have the right to ask for docs. That is, they can ask, but the person who possesses the item does not have to furnish any proof to them that it's registered unless they are an ATF agent. IT IS A TAX DOCUMENT. It is not a permission slip. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-possessor-nfa-firearm-have-show-proof-registration https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/granule/USCODE-2011-title26/USCODE-2011-title26-subtitleE-chap53-subchapB-partI-sec5841 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5841 Any place that asked that of me would get met with a fuck you, a middle finger, and I'd be leaving...and making sure everyone I knew would know what a shitty place it was to shoot. Sorry if it comes across as mean, I don't mean it to be...just we surrender stupid shit an inch at a time, and it's time we started making everyone adhere to NFA laws, including those who think they're entitled to find out shit that they're not entitled to. 
I'm right there with you, anyplace that thinks they have a right to see my tax documents obviously doesn't want my business. |
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Posted: 10/20/2016 1:01:52 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Then again, when you play in someone else's sandbox. Their rules! True, but i have every right to tell them to FOAD and go find a different sandbox. and make everyone else know what shitty rules they run their sandbox by. |
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Posted: 10/20/2016 2:37:07 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Then again, when you play in someone else's sandbox. Their rules! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Then again, when you play in someone else's sandbox. Their rules! Fair enough - for now, it's a free country 
Quoted:
True, but i have every right to tell them to FOAD and go find a different sandbox. and make everyone else know what shitty rules they run their sandbox by. And this
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Posted: 10/20/2016 5:44:02 PM EDT
[#27]
Tell you what EE, better dial in the fact that the everyone knows that a tax stamp is 200.00! Not like it is your 2015 1040 form? Dumb.
You can ridicule the rules, and your strange ideas about shooting ranges and local clubs. But the fact remains rules exist! This is not Ed's World! I bet if your rear end and pocket book were on the line and were a range owner you would have rules! Funny how things are on the other foot! Suffice to stay I remember at AR15.com get together at Deltone and there were a lot of "illegal" at the time AR's, post ban guns with banned features at the time. Those people were asked to leave. |
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Posted: 10/20/2016 6:03:44 PM EDT
[#28]
You've completely and %100 missed the point, but that's ok...you can go yell at clouds all you like.
Also, slight clarification - I was never at any shoots at Del-Ton, but in the event you're talking about, if what you say is true, people were breaking federal law very visibly with zero chance of it being legal in any context at all. What we're talking about here is a perfectly legal firearm/configuration. Notice how no one here is saying that the range people should be drawn/quartered for asking? No. We're just saying we'd leave and tell everyone we know that the people who run that range are not friends of the firearm community, are not familiar with federal law (which makes them dangerous to everyone, including themselves), and should be avoided. Also - I hate to break this too you, but there are more forms than forms 1 and 4, as well as more tax amounts than just $200. What if it came on a form 5? Maybe it was a $5 tax? Maybe there was no tax at all? Not only does it have that information, it also has the legal address of the stamp holder and other personal info that the person may not want anyone else to know. I hate to break this to you, but not everyone marches in lock-step with the huggy-feely brigade where we can all just get along and think no bad will ever come to our door. Some of us like to protect our personal info wherever possible and to the full extent of THE LAW. |
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Posted: 10/21/2016 1:55:02 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You've completely and %100 missed the point, but that's ok...you can go yell at clouds all you like. Also, slight clarification - I was never at any shoots at Del-Ton, but in the event you're talking about, if what you say is true, people were breaking federal law very visibly with zero chance of it being legal in any context at all. What we're talking about here is a perfectly legal firearm/configuration. Notice how no one here is saying that the range people should be drawn/quartered for asking? No. We're just saying we'd leave and tell everyone we know that the people who run that range are not friends of the firearm community, are not familiar with federal law (which makes them dangerous to everyone, including themselves), and should be avoided. Also - I hate to break this too you, but there are more forms than forms 1 and 4, as well as more tax amounts than just $200. What if it came on a form 5? Maybe it was a $5 tax? Maybe there was no tax at all? Not only does it have that information, it also has the legal address of the stamp holder and other personal info that the person may not want anyone else to know. I hate to break this to you, but not everyone marches in lock-step with the huggy-feely brigade where we can all just get along and think no bad will ever come to our door. Some of us like to protect our personal info wherever possible and to the full extent of THE LAW. Thats a big part of it for me. I get that a owner may have liability concerns and thats fine. If they want to run their business that way they are free to do so. Just as I'm free to vote with my wallet and take my money elsewhere. |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 12:08:44 PM EDT
[#30]
Back to the original topic:
OK, so for whatever reason, I have decided I *need* a shotgun shell dispenser shorter than 18" barrel length. I see two avenues: 1) AOW: A firearm that is not a shotgun because it has never had a shoulder stock attached to it. It is a PGO or pistol grip only firearm. Typical examples are Mossberg 500s and Reminton 870s sold as PGO, where the barrel shortened to the point of the OAL being less than 26". As I understand it if I want to do this conversion (buy a PGO shotgun, and shorten the barrel) it has to happen on a Form 1 to manufacture an AOW, or I can transfer one on a Form 4 for a $5 stamp. 2) Non-NFA 14" barreled shotgun shell firearm: A PGO shotgun where the pistol grip has been changed to a "birds head" or "breacher" grip which effectively lengthens the firearms OAL past the end of the receiver without putting a shoulder stock on it, allowing the barrel to be shorter than 18" while still maintaining an OAL of greater than 26" avoiding the label as AOW. I know #1 is legal in MN because it falls under AOW. What about #2? I know that the NFA doesn't classify it as a DD, but does MN have something in it's laws that prohibit this configuration? Thanks! |
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Posted: 10/26/2016 9:00:09 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tell you what EE, better dial in the fact that the everyone knows that a tax stamp is 200.00! Not like it is your 2015 1040 form? Dumb. You can ridicule the rules, and your strange ideas about shooting ranges and local clubs. But the fact remains rules exist! This is not Ed's World! I bet if your rear end and pocket book were on the line and were a range owner you would have rules! Funny how things are on the other foot! Suffice to stay I remember at AR15.com get together at Deltone and there were a lot of "illegal" at the time AR's, post ban guns with banned features at the time. Those people were asked to leave. Funny how easy it is to find many places that think it's less of a problem than the range you run... oh, wait... |
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Posted: 10/26/2016 9:00:42 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Back to the original topic: OK, so for whatever reason, I have decided I *need* a shotgun shell dispenser shorter than 18" barrel length. I see two avenues: 1) AOW: A firearm that is not a shotgun because it has never had a shoulder stock attached to it. It is a PGO or pistol grip only firearm. Typical examples are Mossberg 500s and Reminton 870s sold as PGO, where the barrel shortened to the point of the OAL being less than 26". As I understand it if I want to do this conversion (buy a PGO shotgun, and shorten the barrel) it has to happen on a Form 1 to manufacture an AOW, or I can transfer one on a Form 4 for a $5 stamp. 2) Non-NFA 14" barreled shotgun shell firearm: A PGO shotgun where the pistol grip has been changed to a "birds head" or "breacher" grip which effectively lengthens the firearms OAL past the end of the receiver without putting a shoulder stock on it, allowing the barrel to be shorter than 18" while still maintaining an OAL of greater than 26" avoiding the label as AOW. I know #1 is legal in MN because it falls under AOW. What about #2? I know that the NFA doesn't classify it as a DD, but does MN have something in it's laws that prohibit this configuration? Thanks! Not sure if you deliberately omitted it, but there's the third route of a C&R SBS. |
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Posted: 10/26/2016 8:46:03 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You've completely and %100 missed the point, but that's ok...you can go yell at clouds all you like. Also, slight clarification - I was never at any shoots at Del-Ton, but in the event you're talking about, if what you say is true, people were breaking federal law very visibly with zero chance of it being legal in any context at all. What we're talking about here is a perfectly legal firearm/configuration. Notice how no one here is saying that the range people should be drawn/quartered for asking? No. We're just saying we'd leave and tell everyone we know that the people who run that range are not friends of the firearm community, are not familiar with federal law (which makes them dangerous to everyone, including themselves), and should be avoided. Also - I hate to break this too you, but there are more forms than forms 1 and 4, as well as more tax amounts than just $200. What if it came on a form 5? Maybe it was a $5 tax? Maybe there was no tax at all? Not only does it have that information, it also has the legal address of the stamp holder and other personal info that the person may not want anyone else to know. I hate to break this to you, but not everyone marches in lock-step with the huggy-feely brigade where we can all just get along and think no bad will ever come to our door. Some of us like to protect our personal info wherever possible and to the full extent of THE LAW. The people that ask to see your NFA tax returns would probably be highly offended if you asked to see their permit to carry while they are carrying. Fortunately, all of my ecounters with anyone while in possession of NFA items have been very positive. A lot of "That's really cool!" "How does that work?" and "How hard is it for me to get one?". I have yet to be harassed for my paperwork by anyone. |
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Posted: 10/31/2016 9:20:04 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: [...] it also has the legal address of the stamp holder and other personal info that the person may not want anyone else to know. I hate to break this to you, but not everyone marches in lock-step with the huggy-feely brigade where we can all just get along and think no bad will ever come to our door. Some of us like to protect our personal info wherever possible and to the full extent of THE LAW. Every public range I've ever shot at has always asked to see my driver's license. That has my address on it as well. So why so protective of the NFA paperwork? Not to mention, I've also done FFL transfers at most of the public ranges I've shot at, so they already have it on the 4473 anyway. I'm curious as to your emphasis of "THE LAW". Is that supposed to mean something in the context of a private range asking to see your tax return? You don't have to show it, they don't have to let you shoot. Simple as that. Move on if you don't like it. As for the protection of your personal info, what ammo box have you been living in? All anyone needs is your name. They already know approximately where you live, anyone can have your address and picture of your house in a few minutes. A few more minutes and anyone can have the name of your employer, wife, kids, siblings, mother, father, etc. Your "personal" info ceased to be personal a long time ago. Quit kidding yourself. |
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