Update:  WE WON!  

"St, Paul, MN - Minnesota Governor Mark Dayton Friday morning signed the Omnibus Public Safety and Judiciary Finance and Policy bill - which includes five controversial measures concerning guns."

Looks like the effective date is July 1st.  Congrats guys!

Now you have a "race to beat the clock" on your hands if you want to buy a suppressor through a "Trust."  The trust-route is under attack and probably won't be around in a few years - maybe even months (no one knows for sure).  It's called regulation "41p" and it changes everything.

For those on the fence about the "Trust" route, consider this:  you need to ask your local "Chief Law Enforement Officer" (aka CLEO) for personal permission before you are allowed to own what's called a "silencer" on your NFA paperwork.  Your local CLEO has never had to approve a Minnesota civilian's request to own a silencer before.

- how willing will your local CLEO be to give you that first permission? (They are not obliged to sign off in most states.  They can just deny without giving you a reason.)

Anywho - congrats again guys!!!!!!



One of your local Arfcomers straightened me out on what is likely to happen (Thank you TurboGuy!)  In a GP post, he opined:

"The Suppressor bill is part of the omnibus spending bill.

If he vetos it, he has vetoed the entire bill. There's increases in firefighter pay and child molester sentences and whatnot in there too. Would you want to be the guy who vetoed a child molester incarceration bill which also includes a shitpile of his other liberal pet project spending?

Odds are that he'll not sign the bill in protest and it becomes law, or he'll just hold his nose and sign the fucking thing and try to repeal the suppressor bill. (Read: Not happening)"





Assuming he is right (and suppressors are soon allowed) , I thought I'd post a few surprising things I've learned since buying my first "silencer" (as the NFA calls them, and as they are listed on your Tax-Stamp Fomr 4 for factory cans or Form 1 for cans you will build at home).  I'm no expert.  But here are a few things that surprised me along the way.



1) Supressors are NOT silent.  The 223 cans generally reduce the sound to something like a 22 out of a rifle with a longer barrel.  IMHO, pistol cans are disappointingly loud - plus they are rather large/long (using a coolant like wire-pulling gell can quiet them down a bunch).  On the bright side, some 22 cans are extremely effective, - especially with special SUBSONIC 22 ammo, and especially with rifles.  Some folks shoot in their basement with 22 cans, though I don't want to introduce all those lead-particles into my home.  Also quite is the 300 BLK.  I was also shocked at how quite the 300 BLK subsonic round can be:  it was a lot like a pellet gun, but the bullet is typically a 247 grn moving at 1000 FPS (compare that to a .45 ACP).  The quietest suppressed guns tend to be purpose-built integral suppressed bolt actions.  With the right ammo, those guns begin to approach "Hollywood quiet."  

2) If you act quickly, you don't need to submit fingerprints or beg for permission from your local police chief to own a suppressor.  Its possible to create or commission a legal Trust to own your NFA suppressor; in turn, you own the Trust. This isn't a loop hole.  The gov. knows all about this and they approve forms to buy all sorts of NFA guns every day based on ownership by Trusts, Corporations, and Partnerships. There is lots of info in the "Armory" subforum here on Arfcom as to how to use a trust to own NFA firearms, including a suppressor.  

3) Supressors get HOT.  Really fast.  As in, electric stove element hot, within one 30 round magazine of rapid fire. Its not uncommon to see rifle suppressors with burnt-on nylon form the owner resting the gun on a gun case.


4) Supressors cost a lot.  The high quality ones you typically want to own are about $600 to $1200 for a rifle supressor, while 22 cans are $300 to $400; centerfire pistol cans are in the middle.  BUT - you have to add $200 to that cost. OTOH, there are guys who spend $300 just on an AR handguard and $1200 for a premium dot-optic + LaRue mount; so maybe a can isn't much of an added expense to them.  


5) Its now possible to BUILD an effective suppressor at home for a lot less.  Check out the Supressor sub forum for details. Those of you who are machinists should really pay attention to this.  Another plus to this route is that your From 1 now takes about 35 days for approval - not bad at all.  


6) Because cans have not been allowed up to now in your state, you will get a lot of attention at the range (good and bad).  Good is that you can tell other people about the change in laws, and maybe they will jump in & buy their own.  Bad is the ignorance of those who wrongly believe all supressors are "illegal."  I have also been (in my state of Virginia) "NFA-carded" by over-zealous range officers.  There is a lot of debate on this topic.  Suffice to say - civilian range officers demanding to see my gov. issued NFA Tax form strikes me as offensive because it insinuates I'm a criminal and they want me to prove otherwise.  OTOH, police & BATFE officers can ask as part of their job & I don't give those folks flak for trying to do their duty.



Anywho - WELCOME ABOARD!  Please make full use of the Supressor sub-form; there are no dumb questions.  And please post your range reports/photos/videos back to Arfcom!

As far as getting NFA "Carded."

I really don't have a problem with it as long as it is the RO/owner. It's their range and if you're caught openly breaking Federal laws on their range, they could be impacted. I totally understand what they're doing and why. The gun range game today is full of landmines, and they're probably just trying to avoid yet another. I have three NFA items, not SBR's, and every one of them was an adventure trying to just get the damned things, and I'm sure they deal REGULARLY with some fuckwit who threw a pistol upper on a rifle lower ignorant of the law and wants to try it out at the range.

If it is a police officer performing his/her duties as an officer and they ask me to see my stamp, yup, here you go. Now have a nice day and fuck off. Don't expect to try it out after you all but accuse me of being a felon.

Random person asking to see my stamp can eat shit unless they're asking to see it as informational on how they too can get through the process. That's just neighborly. And I've had random assholes come up and ask to see my stamp. I politely tell them that the conversation is over and to have a nice day. One guy at the Circle Pines Bill's gun range told me he was going to call the police because I didn't show him my stamp. I told him to make sure he hangs around when they get here because I'll be pressing charges on his ass for false police report.

Fucking people can't get the concept of MYOB I guess.



 

Well said

Federal law says the AG of the USA or any BATFE agent can demand to see the original tax stamp application; no warrant needed.  Everyone else you can tell to pack sand, at your own risk.  If on private property, then they might tell you to leave their range unless you can prove your NFA firearm is registered.  Their land their rules.  Some states require that the owner prove it is registered; show the form or be arrested I guess.

I had a problem only once since 2002 at a range.  The range officer (RO) said I was in violation of federal law by not carrying a copy of the ATF form 4 with my homemade (registered on form 1, go figure) silencer.  I called him a liar and a scumbag at the next club meeting.  The executive board said they would never ask for registration forms.  Enforcing laws was not their business.  That RO quit being an RO.

At times I've seen people with questionable firearms at the local range where I work.  If they have what looks like an unregistered NFA firearm, I don't need to ask them for the form.  I ask (with a smile) if they had a hard time getting the CLEO to sign the application.  Each time they said "what?"  Then I go on to tell them that their SBR or silencer or whatever is required to be registered or else risk 10 years/$10k fine.

Randy

No trusts?

 

If a person used a trust, they would tell me that they did or that the CLEO sig was not required.  If they don't have a clue about what I saying, then chances are they have an unregistered firearm.  The last time I encountered a person with an unregistered SBR, it was a young man at the range with a 9mm AR-15 with a 12" barrel.  He appeared to be far too young to have registered it prior to July 1994, so I asked him if the CLEO was a pain.  Since he had no idea he needed to have his SBR registered, he willingly stopped shooting it and brought it home after I told him what kind of risk he was taking.

Randy

LIKE!

So you're quizzing people to get around just asking?

 


I ran a range. First time I saw a customer with a SBR/MG etc, I'd just ask if they had proper papers filed and approved and let it go. No reason to be weird about it.


 

Going to go the route of an SBR here this month and do the trust route. My CLEO is an absolute turd and should not be wearing a badge in the first place. (you can probably guess which city I live in)

I already have a pistol upper and lower and will be getting the lower engraved as soon as the "check is cashed", so to speak.

Should we be graced with suppressors this coming year, I'll be adding 3 of them to my NFA trust. 1 for the MKIII, one for the AR, and one for the 92FS.

Why do we need to act quickly?
I haven't been following the other threads at all. I'll be reading them over the next couple of days, to try and catch up.

41P stuff. It sounds like it is getting delayed again though.



 

Yes - this exactly.  Thanks.  

AS OF THIS MOMENT:  using a trust means you can skip several steps when applying to own and NFA item, including SBRs, destructive devices (like grenade launchers) and soon in your state: suppressors.  The steps you skip are:

-no need to get officially fingerprinted at the police station or a private, approved place (mine always get kicked back at least once anyway; I have crummy skin I guess)

-no need to submit those $14 passport-style photos, and the biggest one:

-no need to take your completed form to the Chief of Police and beg him or her to PLEASE sign off, allowing you to possess the suppressor you already paid for.

Now, you might wonder what's wrong with this last step.  Problem is:  the Chief of Police can refuse to sign and there is nothing you can do about it.  They don't even need to give you a reason.   Lots of Chiefs are that way.  Others will flat out tell you to your face that that they "don't like those kinds of guns" and they do not think you should be allowed to own them; only police and military should have them.

There is one more reason I can think of as to why I don't want the Chief involved:  official forms signed by the Chief usually get photocopied or recorded;  its just procedure.  But by recording that, the local cops are creating their own "registry" about you and what you own.  I personally don't think its any of their business.  And I feel like if my home alarm system accidentally goes off, the police are a lot more likely to shoot my dogs if they think I'm some NFA-owning wacko.

Good Q.  Keep the questions comming.

Question: Trust lawyer recommendations?  I am up in Pine City.

 
This.  I'm south of the cities but I'll gladly travel.

I went through the group that offers their services in the NFA section, NFAlawyers.com. They were pretty thorough, and sent it back completed the next day with instructions- I just needed to sign it in front of 2 witnesses and had it notarized.