I won't list rank or other info, only to say he is an officer in the MN National Guard.

I've been hunting with him on occasion and helped him with an AR build many years ago... Still has it today, he told me.

Anyhow, we were discussing the situation in Nevada and could he fulfill the order to shoot innocent people on horseback. Could he give the order?

"NOPE!" he was not even stuggling to answer it.

Although he spoke in generalities, I get the feeling that there are so many guardsmen who actually could NOT take a life on US soil, they feel there is now a chain of command problem.

Washington doesn't want it widely known that their officers would refuse to give the troops the order to fire on a innocent civilian protestor or a Tea Party member.
1) Its all on video, including the name/rank of the soldiers who pull the triggers
2) They are REALLY worried about their families and the problems firing on another citizen in MN would do.

"Bad guys" are one thing... if they point a gun in your direction, they are not often people who are willing to talk.
But, a guy/vet with a Korean War pin on his POW/MIA hat will cause hesitation. If one soldier sees hessitation, others do as well.

Can you imagine Gov Stupid ordering troops to fire on us? I'm sure there are some in the ranks who would jump at the chance, but, from what I heard its far less than we have been lead to believe.

People who proclaim to "follow orders" regardless of situation, not just Guardsmen, but all law enforcement should be shunned and ostracized by the community.

Want to write tickets to satiate the need for city officials taxation and spending habits?

Want to take those guns away and turn your back on the oath you took?

Shoot civilians if given the orders?

It's all the same to me, you're nothing but henchman and you and your whole damned family should be ran out of town.

You need to ask that same question to the actual trigger pullers - the enlisted - the 18 through 22 year olds.


Will they pull the trigger when ordered?





Officers just give orders, rarely are they the ones to perform the actual task - plausible deny ability.


When the dust settles and the hearings begin, and the dead are buried, they gave the order,

the troops did or did not act - not their fault.  





CYA

 

Actually your comprehension level is the one that is flawed. Acting out the will of others, without questioning the morality of those orders is what I'm speaking of. But then again the concept of right and wrong, moral and immoral isn't for everyone. ... I digress.

Ignorance.

We are a nation of so many laws that at some point every law abiding citizen will inadvertently become a criminal. Your ignorance leads you to believe that simply abiding by the kings rules will allow you to live unfettered. The fear of breaking some unknown law or being targeted by some over zealous deputy who just takes his orders from a hawkish sheriff is what most Americans have been trained to accept. So how is living under modern day despotism any different than having a gun point at your head? More incarcerated people per capita than any other nation in the world and by a large margin. ALL BECAUSE THE FOOT SOLDIER IS TOO DAMN BUSY FOLLOWING ORDERS TO STOP AND ASK HIMSELF, IS THIS MORAL? IS THIS WHAT FREE PEOPLE SHOULD BE LIVING UNDER?

You're disconnected, the world you see with what you wish for doesn't exist.  Unfortunately there is a need for laws, I would agree that there are to many but then again we need a lot of them.  What you speak of doesn't occur often, I have yet to work for an overzealous officer.  We live in a structured society, we've had rules since we we're in diapers....learn to be a productive citizen or have your day in court.  

The other reality is that officers spend a lot of time dealing with the same folks, the types that steal anything and everything regardless if its bolted down or not.  We are all a victim of this at some point and its frustrating.  The laws we have help us create contacts to prevent, stop, deter and detect further criminal activity.  If your on the up and up I'm all about you moving about the cabin and you wont get negative contacts from me.

They are completely different. However, as we see with Bundy, we won't be called "innocent". We'll be called "domestic terrorists"...



Then yes, morality really will come into play. Do you "follow orders"? Or do you do the right thing...



 

I wonder if we would hear an increase in stories about "fragging" if it came to this...the soldiers who thought the order was bullshit letting their moral indignation later take it out on the soldiers who followed orders...the soldiers who followed orders letting their dedication to "esprit de corps" take it out on the soldiers who thought it was bullshit...

The NG could quickly become a very dangerous place to be.  You would see desertion in high numbers as the enlistees finally think to themselves, "What the hell am I doing here?  I only signed up for the college money, not to get my throat slashed as I slept in the barracks at night!"

As a matter of fact, he has.  Perhaps not formally, unless you...wait a second...MIAC Report...that's right.  Formally too then.

Well, I'm just going to be a lowly Airplane Mechanic for my first job in the guard, but rest assured, I would never follow such an order.

I fall into that 18-22 category. Never would I pull the trigger on innocent civilians regardless of my orders. Article 15 me.

As a former guardsman I think some would give the order and some would fire, most would not, and some would actively work to stop those who gave the orders or did fire.

I think our politicians know this all too well and if they feel We The People wish to assert our power and restore our liberty, those who want to retain their power will invite foreign nations to come in and try to "keep order". IMHO, with an armed US citizenry, those foreign troops will suffer unimaginable losses.

Just to clarify....is ANY citation or fine equivalent to despotic murder, or just specifically only the ones written to "satiate the need for city officials taxation and spending habits"?

No... none are equal... obviously.... and it was never the point that was trying to be made.... lost in translation evidently... however the lack of critical thought and moral fortitude that accompanies BOTH immoral actions is the common theme.

LOL.  The 90's called, they want their generalization back.  The Guard's been at war for 13 years...Try to think of a more relevant insult.

A couple points:

1. If and when the .gov goes after Clive Bundy they won't send the BLM and the Nevada NG; they'll send FBI HRT.  HRT trains with and recruits from the most elite SOF units in the military, and they didn't grow up five miles away and play with Bundy's kids when they were all in grade school together.  I don't get any pleasure from that and I think the whole thing would be a tragedy, but that's how it will go, if it goes down.  

2. The Guard are you guys' neighbors, and they help you when you really need it.  They're not the militia but they're part of your communities.  Speculating about which of them will follow orders to fight against you and how they can be equalized as a fighting force isn't really classy.  People listened to our founding fathers because they were respected in their communities, not just talking shit in the local pub (although there was some of that going on too )  The founding fathers were business owners, church leaders, local politicians, etc. who actually cultivated relationships with EVERYONE in their community.  OP and others who talk to Guardsmen about this: good for you and thanks for realizing they're people just like you, not faceless potential enemies.  

My frame of reference dates to when I knew lots of people in the NG.  As it would happen, it was very shortly after the 90's ended.  If my frame of reference is wrong, fine.

A guy I knew in college during that time was in the NG.  When NG units started getting called up, he posted a re-worked WW2 propaganda poster on his dorm room door that said exactly this.